Steering shake, possible warped rotor?

[hyken]

To make a (year's worths) long story short:

1. Purchase vehicle - no vibration.
2. Change brake pads.
3. Try to change calipers and rotors - banged and PB blasted but rusted on.
4. Give up and move on - still no noticable vibration.
5. Tow 3500 lb. sailboat from Atlanta to Greenville, SC
6. Mild vibration introduced (I think?)
7. Vibration worsens over time especially when braking at highway speeds.
8. Intermittent high-pitched squeak develops from right front wheel along with bad tire wear on right front tire.
9. New tires and wheels mounted and balanced.
10. Vibration is terrible at all speeds except under 30 - squeak remains.
11. Alignment today, and steering wheel wobble is still there.

Thoughts? I know this has been discussed in depth (tire balancing, tie rid ends/bushings, etc.) but could it be a warped rotor causing the steering shakes? Maybe from when I towed the boat?

 

[JayRolla]

To make a (year's worths) long story short:

1. Purchase vehicle - no vibration.
2. Change brake pads.
3. Try to change calipers and rotors - banged and PB blasted but rusted on.
4. Give up and move on - still no noticable vibration.
5. Tow 3500 lb. sailboat from Atlanta to Greenville, SC
6. Mild vibration introduced (I think?)
7. Vibration worsens over time especially when braking at highway speeds.
8. Intermittent high-pitched squeak develops from right front wheel along with bad tire wear on right front tire.
9. New tires and wheels mounted and balanced.
10. Vibration is terrible at all speeds except under 30 - squeak remains.
11. Alignment today, and steering wheel wobble is still there.

Thoughts? I know this has been discussed in depth (tire balancing, tie rid ends/bushings, etc.) but could it be a warped rotor causing the steering shakes? Maybe from when I towed the boat?

If the wobble is only during braking most likey the rotors. You towed and overheated rotors. Stopped and the brake pad fuses to the rotor causing a high spot.

 

[hyken]

[MENTION=50342]JayRolla[/MENTION] that makes sense. But it doesn't just wobble when braking - its just worse usually. The vibration got immediately worse when I went to new and slightly bigger tires.

I have tundra rotors and calipers I've been wanting to put on, but just havent gotten around to it yet.

 

[JayRolla]

[MENTION=50342]JayRolla[/MENTION] that makes sense. But it doesn't just wobble when braking - its just worse usually. The vibration got immediately worse when I went to new and slightly bigger tires.

I have tundra rotors and calipers I've been wanting to put on, but just havent gotten around to it yet.

If it wobbles up front only. Swap front tires to rear and rear to front. If the wobble goes away you need another tire balance.

 

[octanejunkie]

Modern rotors don't "warp" but they can wear unevenly, and so can brake pads for that matter.

Often the cause of this is uneven piston travel in the 4-piston, fixed caliper. This issue shows up easily when you look at your brake pads and one is thicker on one end than the other. Another issue to look at is overall pad thickness, inside pad vs outside pad, is one thicker than the other? This can not only indicate piston travel but brake fluid condition. Brake phasing and fade both can indicate fluid or the pads themselves. Often the polymers in the brake pads themselves require heat (from braking) to set, and unset, like in the case of long downhill braking generating lots of heat. The "burning brakes" smell is often the epoxy-based polymers in the brake pads fusing - which depending on the pads is a required process. Read the break in instructions that come with your pads to see what the manufacturer recommends.

[MENTION=50342]JayRolla[/MENTION] mentions a high spot in a rotor, and like he says, if the wobble or shake is ONLY felt under braking it's 9 times out of 10 a rotor-related issue. An out of true rotor, with high spot, only needs to be a few microns off to be felt under braking, but you will never see it by eye. If there's enough meat on the rotor you can have them turned, but if the problem is with your calipers, pads or fluid condition, it will likely return.

Look at your pads and report back.

EDIT: I didn't address tire balance, but if the wobble is not just during braking, then look at wheel balance. If the wheels are truly zero-balanced and you still have a wobble up front, look at your suspension components (inner and outer tie rod ends, ball joints, etc)

 

[enapa]

Could also be steering rack bushings, but I think that you would constantly have a wobble above a certain speed.

Might want to look into the Tundra Brake Upgrade. I'm currently looking for used calipers to rebuild to get started on mine.

 

[phattyduck]

Sounds like (at least) 3 things:

- Brakes need some work, only matters when brakes are applied though!
- Squeak - something is up with that corner, wheel bearings, bushings? Get in there is look at and shake everything!
- Vibes above 30 - get those wheels/tires correctly balanced.

-Charlie

 

[Buckaroo]

Most likely problems are tire balance and/or rotor thickness issues (aka warping... Octanejunkie discussed the issue well). There is kind of a cool app I have used that can help people tell the difference described in this link. I would run it a number of times on varous road surfaces. After you think you've corrected the problem, run it some more...that will provide a baseline for future....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkiDVvs14ak

Buckaroo

 

[Tyler James Inc]

What wheels do you have on your rig?
I ask because I have personal experience with 3 different sets of 5-star wheels not being able to be balanced correctly. Tire shop says they balanced out, but vibe remains.
All 3 sets were swapped for different wheels(at various times), and the vibe went away.
Also, I disagree about worn steering rack bushings being a possible cause of a vibration- although they will definitely have an affect on the vibration that is there.
Just my two cents. Interested to hear what wheels you're running, and I hope you get to the bottom of it. Vibrations are annoying as all get out.

 

[octanejunkie]

What wheels do you have on your rig?
I ask because I have personal experience with 3 different sets of 5-star wheels not being able to be balanced correctly. Tire shop says they balanced out, but vibe remains.
All 3 sets were swapped for different wheels(at various times), and the vibe went away.

I had a tech at Pep Boys in Reno spend a fair amount of time with me in january when I was chasing a vibration issue, suspecting wheel balance.

He showed me and explained that most tire shops either don't have or don't use the correct balancer bushing for Toyota factory rims and just slap them on the spin balancer and off they go. He showed me how it was impossible to get it right using a universal balancer bushing like most places do. He was able to balance my 5-star rims perfectly, and went on to explain that if a tire shop uses more than 2.0-2.5 ounces of weight to balance a tire they should break it down and re-mount the tire. Tire manufacturing is not as inconsistent as it used to be.

My local tire shop, that gives me lifetime balancing and alignment, does a piss-poor job and the last balance job I got back from them had weights on both sides of the rim totaling over 4 ounces on 2 wheels.

Moral of the story, not everyone knows how to properly balance rims, but more to the point, like [MENTION=116470]Tyler James Inc[/MENTION] mentioned, not all rims will balance. A good shop won't let good-enough out the door.

 

[Buckaroo]

Agree....big tires (and lower quality tires) more prone to be inherently unbalanced from the factory due to manufacturing variability. Another suggestion - use a Hunter Road Force Balancing machine (not all shops have them) which matches the relative position of the tire to the wheel to optimize balance. It means the tech has to mount the tire, run it on the machine, mark the tire & the wheel and dismount & remount the tire in the new position. Then run it on the machine again and repeat if necessary. Finally, add the weights to finish off the balance. Much better result. I had my tires balanced this way when purchased new and paid extra for the service....somewhere $25-$50 for all four wheels.

FYI....default max road force spec in machine is 26 lbs (I think) which is pretty high. In this video, the initial run has a road force results of 15 lbs which the guy says is out of spec and ends up at 8 lbs which is good. The tire manufacturers pressured Hunter to put the default spec higher so folks didn't keep returning their crappy tires. So if the tech wants to stop at 26 saying "good to go", ask nicely if he (or she) would give it another go.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQxVAssnbp8

Buckaroo

 

[octanejunkie]

agree....big tires (and lower quality tires) more prone to be inherently unbalanced from the factory due to manufacturing variability. Another suggestion - use a hunter road force balancing machine (not all shops have them) which matches the relative position of the tire to the wheel to optimize balance. It means the tech has to mount the tire, run it on the machine, mark the tire & the wheel and dismount & remount the tire in the new position. Then run it on the machine again and repeat if necessary. Finally, add the weights to finish off the balance. Much better result. I had my tires balanced this way when purchased new and paid extra for the service....somewhere $25-$50 for all four wheels.

Fyi....default max road force spec in machine is 26 lbs (i think) which is pretty high. In this video, the initial run has a road force results of 15 lbs which the guy says is out of spec and ends up at 8 lbs which is good. The tire manufacturers pressured hunter to put the default spec higher so folks didn't keep returning their crappy tires. So if the tech wants to stop at 26 saying "good to go", ask nicely if he (or she) would give it another go.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dqxvassnbp8

buckaroo

this ^^^

 

[octanejunkie]

url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkiDVvs14ak[/url]

Buckaroo

Good looking app, too bad no android version

 

[Tyler James Inc]

He showed me how it was impossible to get it right using a universal balancer bushing like most places do. He was able to balance my 5-star rims perfectly... Moral of the story, not everyone knows how to properly balance rims...

That would certainly explain the issues I've had.
Seems strange that a big chain shop like America's/Discount Tire wouldn't have(or use) the correct tool to balance an OEM wheel though. Maybe just not good training for their techs- which I do KNOW is a problem. I do everything I can to avoid tire shop "techs". They have screwed up more things than they've gotten right on my rigs.
I watched a kid hit the torque click, then give it another 1/8-1/4 turn- "what the hell are you doing?! What's the torque set to?" "Ummm *looks at wrench* 90 ft lbs" "Then why are you going beyond that when you're torquing the nuts??" "Uhhhhhhhh?"
Wow, really?!
Anyway, what type of adapter needs to be used to properly balance the OEM wheels? Based off the lugs or something??

 

[mtbtim]

I had a tech at Pep Boys in Reno spend a fair amount of time with me in january when I was chasing a vibration issue, suspecting wheel balance.

He showed me and explained that most tire shops either don't have or don't use the correct balancer bushing for Toyota factory rims and just slap them on the spin balancer and off they go. He showed me how it was impossible to get it right using a universal balancer bushing like most places do. He was able to balance my 5-star rims perfectly, and went on to explain that if a tire shop uses more than 2.0-2.5 ounces of weight to balance a tire they should break it down and re-mount the tire. Tire manufacturing is not as inconsistent as it used to be.

My local tire shop, that gives me lifetime balancing and alignment, does a piss-poor job and the last balance job I got back from them had weights on both sides of the rim totaling over 4 ounces on 2 wheels.

Moral of the story, not everyone knows how to properly balance rims, but more to the point, like [MENTION=116470]Tyler James Inc[/MENTION] mentioned, not all rims will balance. A good shop won't let good-enough out the door.

I experienced this at America's Tire. After a tire rotation and wheel balancing, I had steering wheel shake and knew they did something wrong. A knowledgeable guy there said the dude that did the balancing used the wrong adapter (or Balancer Bushing) and that's why the balance was off this time. I had the guy show me what the correct adapter was for my wheels and I tool a picture so I can show them the adapter they're suppose to be using the next time I come in. I suppose a place like America's Tires goes through employees pretty fast so they're always training new guys. On another visit, the tech lifted my rig on the driver side by putting the rack under the step. They bent it pretty good but I was able to smash it back into shape with a big hammer and block of wood. They offered me a $75 discount on my next set of tires for their screw-up. If I had a way to mount and balance my own tires, I'd never bring my rig back to a tire shop but they are a necessary evil.

 

[hyken]

What wheels do you have on your rig?
I ask because I have personal experience with 3 different sets of 5-star wheels not being able to be balanced correctly. Tire shop says they balanced out, but vibe remains.
All 3 sets were swapped for different wheels(at various times), and the vibe went away.
Also, I disagree about worn steering rack bushings being a possible cause of a vibration- although they will definitely have an affect on the vibration that is there.
Just my two cents. Interested to hear what wheels you're running, and I hope you get to the bottom of it. Vibrations are annoying as all get out.

I'm running Level 8 Strike 6 wheels with Treadwright Claws in 265/75/16. I was told the treadwrights were hard to balance and they are a cheaper tire, so I'm sure that has a lot to do with it, but it still doesn't explain why they vibrated slightly even before the installation of that setup. Regardless, it looks like I'm headed back to get them rebalanced by someone else.

I have a friend that owns a Jeep shop so I feel like they should be a little bit better about how to balance MTs.