Think I may have a head gasket problem...

[thegipper]

Coolant is new Toyota red, rear heater lines have been bypassed long ago. Water pump was just replaced 3 weeks ago.

 

[AntleredRuin]

I just did my TB and WP about 1 1/2 weeks ago and am still burping mine. I've done it 3 times so far.
I've parked at a slight incline with the rad cap off and heater blasting and bubbles are STILL coming out. So don't rule out burping.

My question though: how would it burp itself? If air can escape, then the system is not sealed, so then coolant could escape too. Different size molecules, yada yada, but the system should be fully sealed.

 

[thegipper]

I assumed that the air comes out when coolant is discharged into the reservoir but maybe you have a point.

??

 

[thegipper]

I just did my TB and WP about 1 1/2 weeks ago and am still burping mine. I've done it 3 times so far.
I've parked at a slight incline with the rad cap off and heater blasting and bubbles are STILL coming out. So don't rule out burping.

My question though: how would it burp itself? If air can escape, then the system is not sealed, so then coolant could escape too. Different size molecules, yada yada, but the system should be fully sealed.

Also, how much coolant have you had to add so far?

I have only had to add maybe a 1/2" worth in the reservoir bottle in about 3 weeks.

 

[mtbtim]

I just did my TB and WP about 1 1/2 weeks ago and am still burping mine. I've done it 3 times so far.
I've parked at a slight incline with the rad cap off and heater blasting and bubbles are STILL coming out. So don't rule out burping.

My question though: how would it burp itself? If air can escape, then the system is not sealed, so then coolant could escape too. Different size molecules, yada yada, but the system should be fully sealed.

Interesting question. The system is sealed but there is the overflow. When the engine is started and begins to heat up, the coolant expands. As the coolant expands it is forced out out through the pressure valve of the radiator cap, through the overflow tube, and into the reservoir. As the engine cools, coolant will be suctioned back into the radiator from the overflow. This is why you see different coolant levels in the overflow depending on how warm the engine is.

The system is able to burp itself because those trapped air bubbles finally make their way out to the radiator and into the overflow tank. On every vehicle I've changed the coolant on, the coolant level dropped in the overflow tank after driving it for a while. I usually have to top it off one time and then I'm good to go. Now, if you have to keep on adding coolant over and over and over again, that's a sign of a leak or a bad head gasket.

 

[AntleredRuin]

I assumed that the air comes out when coolant is discharged into the reservoir but maybe you have a point.

??

Oh, maybe. I guess that cap isn't exactly on there tight is it? And the overflow is never supposed to be full so coolant would never reach the cap. That make sense.

But if the system self-burped, what would be the point in burping it manually, like so many people do? Obviously get the big bubbles out sooner than later, but still.

Also, how much coolant have you had to add so far?

I have only had to add maybe a 1/2" worth in the reservoir bottle in about 3 weeks.

Wait, you added only a half inch in 3 weeks? I think you might be just fine. The overflow is going to raise and lower by itself depending on how how the coolant is. The only way to fully tell is by adding coolant in the morning (or when the engine is fully cooled down, at least). And if it self-burps (even slightly) that would affect your half-inch in the reservoir.

I've not really kept track of how much I've added because I can tell it's still burping. I'm not too worried about it, and I monitor my temps with Torque. Maybe a half a water bottle's worth? Definitely more than you.
All I know is I'm not adding a half gallon every morning anymore and coming out to a huge puddle due to my leaking water pump.

 

[mtbtim]

Hey Mike, unless I missed it somewhere in the previous posts, why haven't you done a compression test of your cylinders yet? A compression test is going to tell you a lot. If that #3 cylinder is low, then you break out the leak down tester and figure out where the pressure is going.

I actually bought the OTC leak down tester too but haven't had the need to use it yet. [MENTION=102606]infamousRNR[/MENTION] and I made a video of doing a compression test on the engine in my 2000. The only thing I'd do different is I'd disconnect the power to the fuel pump and pull the EFI relay as well. Even though the FSM says you just push the gas pedal to the floor, which puts the ECU in clear flood mode, when doing the compression test, I still smelled a pretty strong gasoline odor when doing the test.

I also heard a occasional fairly loud popping sound when cranking over the engine during the test. Anyone have an idea what causes that popping sound?

Here's the compression test video.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/ky7bndfFpO0" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[thegipper]

Hey Mike, unless I missed it somewhere in the previous posts, why haven't you done a compression test of your cylinders yet? A compression test is going to tell you a lot. If that #3 cylinder is low, then you break out the leak down tester and figure out where the pressure is going.

I actually bought the OTC leak down tester too but haven't had the need to use it yet. [MENTION=102606]infamousRNR[/MENTION] and I made a video of doing a compression test on the engine in my 2000. The only thing I'd do different is I'd disconnect the power to the fuel pump and pull the EFI relay as well. Even though the FSM says you just push the gas pedal to the floor, which puts the ECU in clear flood mode, when doing the compression test, I still smelled a pretty strong gasoline odor when doing the test.

I also heard a occasional fairly loud popping sound when cranking over the engine during the test. Anyone have an idea what causes that popping sound?

Here's the compression test video.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/ky7bndfFpO0" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

I just haven't had time to do a compression test yet. In the mean time, I ordered the Mityvac cooling system pressure tester and the OTC leak down tester which will be here today. I probably wont have time to do a leak down test until Friday but should be able to do the cooling system pressure test after work. I got a 6month old baby girl (who's a total PITA...lol) and a 3 year old boy. They consume the tiny amount of free time I ever have =(

My other concern was the compression tester I have doesn't have a hard extension and I was afraid I wouldn't be able to thread the flexible hose fitting on to the spark plug hole. Maybe I'm just being too cautious?

I always reference the Timmy and Sean videos! I'm pretty sure I've watched them all at least twice...

I'll keep everyone posted.

 

[thegipper]

Oh, maybe. I guess that cap isn't exactly on there tight is it? And the overflow is never supposed to be full so coolant would never reach the cap. That make sense.

But if the system self-burped, what would be the point in burping it manually, like so many people do? Obviously get the big bubbles out sooner than later, but still.



Wait, you added only a half inch in 3 weeks? I think you might be just fine. The overflow is going to raise and lower by itself depending on how how the coolant is. The only way to fully tell is by adding coolant in the morning (or when the engine is fully cooled down, at least). And if it self-burps (even slightly) that would affect your half-inch in the reservoir.

I've not really kept track of how much I've added because I can tell it's still burping. I'm not too worried about it, and I monitor my temps with Torque. Maybe a half a water bottle's worth? Definitely more than you.
All I know is I'm not adding a half gallon every morning anymore and coming out to a huge puddle due to my leaking water pump.

I was loosing coolant relatively fast but my WP was 100% leaking, so I did the whole TB/WP job.

To summarize again real quick:
It never over heats, not even remotely (temps monitored via ultragauge)

I've only had to add maybe a 1/2" or so of coolant to the reservoir since the WP job 3 weeks ago. I used one of those fancy burping funnels when I added the coolant after the TB/WP job. I let it burp for a good 15 minutes, I would get a single bubble every minute or so and called it good.

I drive it about 3 to 4 days a week, maybe putting on a 100ish miles a week.

It runs excellent

Occasionally, I would get a rough idle on a cold startup that would usually last 5 seconds or so and instantly go away.

Last sunday it actually threw a misfire code on #3 cylinder, first time it ever happened. After about 10 seconds, it ran perfectly smooth and I drove it about 20 miles without a single issue or any CEL. I cleared the code right away.

Since that happened, I pulled the plugs on that side. #3 plug was loose in the cylinder? Maybe not hand tight loose but definitely not 14 ft/lbs.

Also since that happened, and I retorqued the spark plugs, the rough idle has not happened once in 3 cold start ups.

I have not had to add any more coolant to the reservoir.

I cannot see any leaks on the ground or anywhere underneath the truck.

There is "steam" coming out of the exhaust on cold start ups (usually in the 20's in the morning here). Liquid that is coming out is crystal clear (confirmed on a white towel) and tastes like dirty water (yes I tasted it!). No sweet smell or taste.

Just when I'm not sure if the amount of steam is normal, my wife starts her Highlander and "steams" about the same on a cold start up. And, every other car I see driving out of my neighborhood in WI has about the same amount of "steam".

No bubbling in the radiator/reservoir. Maybe a single bubble or two comes out of the reservoir when I shut it off.

Pistons/cylinders on # 1/3/6 all look the same (black and full of carbon). Plugs look essentially all the same.

I let it sit for 24 hours and pulled the #3 plug to see if any coolant was pooled up, using a bore scope and a flashlight, AND a long wooden cotton ear swab, the cylinder is dry.

Ok, so that wasn't short but it essentially summarized the thread so far. Leak down test should be the slam dunk whether I have a HG issue or not. I've had some really, really bad luck with cars in the past (thanks Pontiac and VW) so I'm super OCD/paranoid.

I'll know for sure on Friday.

 

[mtbtim]

I just haven't had time to do a compression test yet. In the mean time, I ordered the Mityvac cooling system pressure tester and the OTC leak down tester which will be here today. I probably wont have time to do a leak down test until Friday but should be able to do the cooling system pressure test after work. I got a 6month old baby girl (who's a total PITA...lol) and a 3 year old boy. They consume the tiny amount of free time I ever have =(

My other concern was the compression tester I have doesn't have a hard extension and I was afraid I wouldn't be able to thread the flexible hose fitting on to the spark plug hole. Maybe I'm just being too cautious?

I always reference the Timmy and Sean videos! I'm pretty sure I've watched them all at least twice...

I'll keep everyone posted.

No hard extension needed. I used the flexible hose from my OTC kit.

 

[LittleCaesar]

If you were able to pull and replace a tranny, threading in a regular hose gauge isn't a problem.

Since this is not a DD, then no OCD is needed here. Don't freak if the readings aren't stellar for the leak down test.

The only thing that calls out this as being a HG possibility is that your brother had it overheat on him. I had an engine in a Bronco II overheat once and due to a poor coolant passage in the head, the engine and head gasket were done 200 miles after that.

 

[thegipper]

I get your point for sure about the gauge.

He overheated it about 20k miles ago and hasn't overheated once since. I know that doesn't mean that it couldn't give up the ghost now...just like any motor after 200k miles.

Leak down test should at least give me a much better understanding if something is going on or if I'm just waaaaay over thinking this.

 

[AntleredRuin]

Yeah, I guess you'll know Friday for sure.

To me, it sounds like 3 different things, all unrelated and not necessarily damning.

1)Burping of the coolant system. Caused your initial slightly lower levels

2)Coincidentally loose spark plug causing your misfires. That the cylinder/piston/plug was as dirty and dry as the rest of them is a very good sign.

3)All vehicles 'steam' when it's cold out. Super hot air meets super cold air, and condensation and science. Exhaust can be well over 500deg.

 

[Team_Jake]

I've never thought about checking to see how loose the spark plugs are. I haven't torqued them to a specific value, just by feel. I guess that could be it, I'll check it with a bore scope this weekend and see if I can find anything.

Again I have the same exact symptoms as you. I did performed a compression test and cylinder 3 was at 190 psi.

 

[thegipper]

I used the Mityvac cooling system pressure tester after work today.

I hooked it up and pumped it up to 12psi. The instructions say to wait 2 minutes (I waited 5) and it stayed at 12psi.

Just for grins, I pulled the #3 plug out again and it's still dry and no pressure from the tester (or noise).

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

 

[thegipper]

I also read in the instructions to hook up the tester and start up the vehicle to see if there is a spike in pressure (if there is a blown HG).

I did it and the needle didn't move at all?

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

 

[phattyduck]

Yeah, I guess you'll know Friday for sure.

To me, it sounds like 3 different things, all unrelated and not necessarily damning.

1)Burping of the coolant system. Caused your initial slightly lower levels

2)Coincidentally loose spark plug causing your misfires. That the cylinder/piston/plug was as dirty and dry as the rest of them is a very good sign.

3)All vehicles 'steam' when it's cold out. Super hot air meets super cold air, and condensation and science. Exhaust can be well over 500deg.

This sounds exactly like what is happening. Or, did happen.

I would expect a little coolant 'loss' after a drain/refill. I always overfill the reservoir a bit after a coolant change to account for this. There are always just a couple bubbles leftover that take a few heat cycles (and maybe some higher engine RPMs) to get out. It may take a few weeks for the coolant level to fully stabilize.

A loose spark plug could definitely cause a misfire.

Cold and/or moist weather will cause steam out the exhaust - hydrocarbon + Oxygen => H20 + CO2...

-Charlie

 

[thegipper]

Well guys, it's official, no question about it, the HG is blown.

I wen't to start it this morning and it was running rough again. I look at the back of the truck and see white, sweet smoke billowing out of the exhaust.

I shut her down and started to warm up my Camry instead.

I may still try the blue devil to buy me some time while I start to pull the motor out of my donor vehicle and prepare for the motor swap. I would bypass the heater core. The donor truck is at my work so I'll need my 4runner running to pick up my buddies cherry picker/engine stand and to bring the donor motor back to my house for the swap.

Once I get the donor motor out, I'll strip it down and get it ready for a timing belt/WP job. I'll be taking those brand new parts off my blown motor and swapping them over to the donor engine. Looks like I'll need to order new cam/crank seals though.

Just when it started to look like I was going to dodge a bullet.....

 

[mtbtim]

How many miles on the donor motor? Are you sure that's the route you want to go? I know pulling the head off is a fair amount of labor but pulling an engine out of 2 vehicles is also a ton of work too. Both engines have similar miles and who's to say that donor motor doesn't blow a head gasket too and you're right back in the same situation. If the donor motor had much less miles, like 100k, I'd say say the swap would probably be the way to go. With them both being above 200k, you're seriously rolling the dice the donor motor is going to be trouble free for a long time and make it worth the effort. It would be different if your current motor was toast, but it's not. I had a head gasket blow on my Subaru Outback at around 130k. I paid a ton of money to get it fixed but it ended up paying off because I got another 200k out of that motor before the transmission failed at 330k and I decided to just donate the vehicle to Kars4Kids.

If the head isn't cracked, you're looking at very little money to get it running well again. At 200k, that motor could last you for a lot longer since we know there's many in the 400k club on this forum.

 

[thegipper]

Donor motor has 200k miles but was maintained much better than mine. I bought the whole truck from a member on here who had an entire folder of maintenance records.

I'm not sold on what to do yet. My current motor with the blown HG has 216k miles but wasn't taken care of as well as the motor from my 99.

Knowing my luck, the head is cracked. My brother overheated it bad when he got the pink milk shake (what also destroyed the tranny). Granted, that was 20k miles ago so it did last for awhile.

If I had to pull the heads, that is going to be a ton of work in of itself. I could do all of that work only to find out the head is cracked, or at the very least, it isn't cracked but I would still need to send the heads out to a machine shop ($$$) to be ground and checked.

Swapping motors will be a bunch of work, no doubt. The donor trucks tranny is already removed (in mine now). And a bunch of stuff is already taken off. I should be able to pull that motor in an afternoon. Obviously mine will take longer.

I have all of the tools needed to do the job (cherry picker, engine stand etc) and it isn't my DD so I can take my time like I did with the tranny.

Before I bought the donor truck from the guy on here, I was able to drive it around in his neighborhood and it ran good.

Swapping the motor would be the cheapest option, I think at least. Once I remove the engine from my truck, I can take all of the timing belt/WP stuff off and reuse it on the donor motor (minus maybe the WP gasket and cam/crank seals).

My wife never wanted me to get this truck and she especially hates it now....lol