Toyota getting educated, changing Tundra's model mix
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Koz
New member
After I read some of the replies to this post it really makes me think about how people tend to stick their head in sand (or somewhere else) when it comes to change!
http://theoildrop.server101.com/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=818972&page=0&fpart=1&vc=1
http://theoildrop.server101.com/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=818972&page=0&fpart=1&vc=1
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Thai
Elite Member
From the graph, it looks like Chevy is doing pretty well with the Silverados...are they catching up to the Tundra at the end of the graph?? The Tundra is a great truck, but i am still not happy with their open frame design...only time will tell. See my comments in this thread: http://www.toyota-4runner.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=25424&pagenumber=2
And BTW, does "JohnBrowning" work for Toyota?? He sure sounds like he does.
If i were to buy a fullsize truck, then i would get the Chevy 2500 with Duramax and 6-speed Allison tranny!
I think that a fullsize truck needs a diesel, not gas engine. If midsize, then either Toyota Taco or Nissan Frontier.
And BTW, does "JohnBrowning" work for Toyota?? He sure sounds like he does.
If i were to buy a fullsize truck, then i would get the Chevy 2500 with Duramax and 6-speed Allison tranny!
I think that a fullsize truck needs a diesel, not gas engine. If midsize, then either Toyota Taco or Nissan Frontier.
Koz
New member
Thai said:From the graph, it looks like Chevy is doing pretty well with the Silverados...are they catching up to the Tundra at the end of the graph?? The Tundra is a great truck, but i am still not happy with their open frame design...only time will tell. See my comments in this thread: http://www.toyota-4runner.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=25424&pagenumber=2
And BTW, does "JohnBrowning" work for Toyota?? He sure sounds like he does.
If i were to buy a fullsize truck, then i would get the Chevy 2500 with Duramax and 6-speed Allison tranny!
You are kidding about the Chevy? It only makes decent power when it reaches its last 500rpm. The Titan at least makes its power in the usable range.
There is reason why Toyota uses three different types of rail in different parts of the frame. Each different type of frame works better for the stresses related to the section of the frame. The frame on the new Tundra is state of art!
Thay are talking (compairing) about half ton pick-ups. There is only a very small market for the 3/4 - 1 ton truck. Toyota is waiting to see what happens in the 1/2 ton market. They do have plans for the HD market.
Koz
Thai
Elite Member
Koz said:
Three different type of rails...hmmm...that's more like cost cutting to me. You do realize that Tundra is the ONLY 1/2-ton truck on the market with a C-frame...all the other major ones are fully-boxed. I like originality, but when everyone else is going towards fully-boxed frame (after using C-frame for years), you gotta wonder!
There is a reason why SUVs in the 80's had C-frames and SUVs nowadays are fully-boxed. Read my link above and the info that i found out about truck manufacturing. I am hoping that Toyota has learned it's lesson with the Tacoma's frame.
Koz
New member
The front half of the frame is fully boxed. Toyota says there is no need for the extra weight of fully boxed rails on some parts of the frame. Adding that weight would cut into the truck's payload capacity without improving the ride, handling, safety or durability.
Koz
Koz
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Koz
New member
Thai,
You show me one mechanical part on the new Tundra where they cut corners. You had better take a good look at that picture. Why would they use a 10" rear and cheap out on the frame? It probably would have been cheaper to use a fully boxed frame. What they did makes perfect sense to me.
It seems like we picked up right where we left off!:chair:
Koz
You show me one mechanical part on the new Tundra where they cut corners. You had better take a good look at that picture. Why would they use a 10" rear and cheap out on the frame? It probably would have been cheaper to use a fully boxed frame. What they did makes perfect sense to me.
It seems like we picked up right where we left off!:chair:
Koz
Thai
Elite Member
Koz said:
Koz, the difference is that you see no evil with Toyota. I am more impartial to all brands.
Why the 10" rear diff?? One word: MARKETING. I am sure that it's a lot cheaper to put in a 10" rear diff than it is to boxed a huge frame. Come on, Koz...you actually think that a boxed frame is cheap??
You never answered my question...if Tripletech is so great ("state-of-the-art"), then do you think that the new LX570 or Land Cruiser will have this design??
Do you have the torque curves of the different engines??
And if you think that Toyota does not cut corners, then read this article: http://www.toyota-4runner.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=27605
Thai
Elite Member
Chevy's Frame in Detail
The new, boxed frame design offers 49-percent increased torsional stiffness (side-to-side twisting) and 35-percent improved beaming frequency (front-to-back bending), compared with previous-generation vehicles. The stronger frame also supports an increased load capacity of approximately 5 percent.
The frame
The new, boxed frame design offers 49-percent increased torsional stiffness (side-to-side twisting) and 35-percent improved beaming frequency (front-to-back bending), compared with previous-generation vehicles. The stronger frame also supports an increased load capacity of approximately 5 percent.
The frame
Thai
Elite Member
As you can see Koz, Chevy also uses a 3-section (front, mid, rear) design on the frame (just like Toyota's Tripletech design), but they also boxed the whole frame and hydroformed the ends.
In the last 10-15 years of SUV/truck evolution, what have we seen?? C-section frame going to fully-boxed frame due to better strength, rigidity, and durability. This is fact. Toyota is attempting to keep status quo while the competitors have moved on. You would think that Toyota has learned it's lesson with the Toyota Tacoma...it's main weakness (beside the weak rear diff on locker-equipped Taco) is the frame. As stated previously, even Car & Driver noticed this in their 30k long term test! (yes, only after 30,000 miles!)
The Tundra otherwise is an amazing vehicle. How do you think Toyota kept the prices down to be competitive with Chevy, Ford, and Dodge?? Let's see...Toyota's engine is superior (and costly to make too), 6-speed auto tranny is great, interior looks beautiful, and a big rear diff. Toyota HAD TO cut corners somewhere to keep the prices competitive. They had to with all the amazing/cool stuff that they were putting into the Tundra. Well, the frame looks to be the result of this in my eyes.
I am critical of this one mistake (??) by Toyota because it's the backbone of a truck. (And one of the few reasons why i am looking at a Frontier instead of Tacoma.) Of all things, i would NOT want to cut corners on the frame. With all the hype about Tundra's pulling capability, i wonder if we will see stories in the future of frame cracking or other failures related to the frame with people who actually do tow at maximum load on a daily basis. A friend of mine tows over the limit every weekend with his Ford F150...not the smartest thing, but he's a part-time farmer and uses his trucks to the fullest. I told him to sell his Ford soon before shit happens! Therefore, you gotta be careful of what you advertise because people will listen and will test the limits.
I like the Tundra and i am sure that it will be a great truck. But for the hype that Toyota is claiming, you have to stand back and take a more UNBIAS view of the claims.
Do you remember VW Touareg commercial where it towed an 18-wheeler?? Oh boy, VW got sued on that one when some owners had issues with towing!
And remember, it is not just me that is critical of the Tundra's new frame design: http://www.autoblog.com/2007/01/15/detroit-auto-show-under-the-skin-of-toyotas-tundra/
In the last 10-15 years of SUV/truck evolution, what have we seen?? C-section frame going to fully-boxed frame due to better strength, rigidity, and durability. This is fact. Toyota is attempting to keep status quo while the competitors have moved on. You would think that Toyota has learned it's lesson with the Toyota Tacoma...it's main weakness (beside the weak rear diff on locker-equipped Taco) is the frame. As stated previously, even Car & Driver noticed this in their 30k long term test! (yes, only after 30,000 miles!)
The Tundra otherwise is an amazing vehicle. How do you think Toyota kept the prices down to be competitive with Chevy, Ford, and Dodge?? Let's see...Toyota's engine is superior (and costly to make too), 6-speed auto tranny is great, interior looks beautiful, and a big rear diff. Toyota HAD TO cut corners somewhere to keep the prices competitive. They had to with all the amazing/cool stuff that they were putting into the Tundra. Well, the frame looks to be the result of this in my eyes.
I am critical of this one mistake (??) by Toyota because it's the backbone of a truck. (And one of the few reasons why i am looking at a Frontier instead of Tacoma.) Of all things, i would NOT want to cut corners on the frame. With all the hype about Tundra's pulling capability, i wonder if we will see stories in the future of frame cracking or other failures related to the frame with people who actually do tow at maximum load on a daily basis. A friend of mine tows over the limit every weekend with his Ford F150...not the smartest thing, but he's a part-time farmer and uses his trucks to the fullest. I told him to sell his Ford soon before shit happens!
Therefore, you gotta be careful of what you advertise because people will listen and will test the limits.I like the Tundra and i am sure that it will be a great truck. But for the hype that Toyota is claiming, you have to stand back and take a more UNBIAS view of the claims.
Do you remember VW Touareg commercial where it towed an 18-wheeler?? Oh boy, VW got sued on that one when some owners had issues with towing!
And remember, it is not just me that is critical of the Tundra's new frame design: http://www.autoblog.com/2007/01/15/detroit-auto-show-under-the-skin-of-toyotas-tundra/
Koz
New member
You have got to be kidding quoting Mr. Doom & Gloom. Toyota is on a deathwatch. PLEASE! Toyota has the highest profit margin of ALL auto manufactures and now has become the NUMBER 1 auto maker in the WORLD, despite all the recent set-backs. If you would like to debate each issue Mr. Doom & Gloom brings up, bring it.
As far as torque, I don
As far as torque, I don
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Thai
Elite Member
Who is Mr. Doom & Gloom?? Anyone who criticizes Toyota?? Has that writer been anti-Toyota in the past??
Koz, again, if this Tripletech frame is so good, then will we see it on the Lexus LX570 or at least some version of it??
Show me where you got, "rigid frame on a truck is bad..." I would love to read up on it.
Now that you have a Lexus IS350 and know something about sports car, what is the first thing that they tell you when redesigning a car?? Improve rigidity and torsional strength. Why?? Because no one likes a flexy body when going around a corner (handling) or a flexy body moving up and down over a bump (comfort). You want a RIGID body so that the suspension can be tuned more accurately. Have you ever heard of a car redesign with a weaker rigidity??!!
What do you hear everytime a car/SUV/truck gets redesigned?? Yup, you got it...IMPROVE RIGIDITY, TORSIONAL STRENGTH, etc.. You always hear this. Ever wonder why??
With today's technology, you do NOT want a flexy body/frame. That job belongs to the suspension. A more rigid body/frame allows for more accurate tuning of the suspension. THIS IS FACT.
The ONLY time that i would pick a flexy frame is if i were to do EXTREME off-roading (extreme rock crawling) where suspension flex and body flex allows for wrapping around a rock. But even here, the improvement to suspension technology has made this belief obsolete.
And your added details of the Tundra frame did not change my view at all...the Chevy frame details above sure sounded a lot better...and more convincing too!!
As for weight, if you read above description, then you will see that it is possible to keep weight down on a fully-boxed frame by using high-strength steel and hydroforming the rails.
As for driveshaft material, i prefer steel thank you. Aluminum = soft = weak = high friction = don't like to scrape over a rock. Aluminum is NOT what i want in a vehicle that off-roads and at high risk for high-centering (aka trucks). Have you ever heard of aluminum skidplate that actually does the job?? Nope. Aluminum is OK in doors, hoods, but i really don't like it in anything underneath a truck or SUV. Unfortunately, this criticism also applies to GM/Ford/Dodge too because they use aluminum in their control arms.
Time will tell...i agree with that.
Koz, again, if this Tripletech frame is so good, then will we see it on the Lexus LX570 or at least some version of it??
Show me where you got, "rigid frame on a truck is bad..." I would love to read up on it.
Now that you have a Lexus IS350 and know something about sports car, what is the first thing that they tell you when redesigning a car?? Improve rigidity and torsional strength. Why?? Because no one likes a flexy body when going around a corner (handling) or a flexy body moving up and down over a bump (comfort). You want a RIGID body so that the suspension can be tuned more accurately. Have you ever heard of a car redesign with a weaker rigidity??!!
What do you hear everytime a car/SUV/truck gets redesigned?? Yup, you got it...IMPROVE RIGIDITY, TORSIONAL STRENGTH, etc.. You always hear this. Ever wonder why??
With today's technology, you do NOT want a flexy body/frame. That job belongs to the suspension. A more rigid body/frame allows for more accurate tuning of the suspension. THIS IS FACT.
The ONLY time that i would pick a flexy frame is if i were to do EXTREME off-roading (extreme rock crawling) where suspension flex and body flex allows for wrapping around a rock. But even here, the improvement to suspension technology has made this belief obsolete.
And your added details of the Tundra frame did not change my view at all...the Chevy frame details above sure sounded a lot better...and more convincing too!!
As for weight, if you read above description, then you will see that it is possible to keep weight down on a fully-boxed frame by using high-strength steel and hydroforming the rails.
As for driveshaft material, i prefer steel thank you. Aluminum = soft = weak = high friction = don't like to scrape over a rock. Aluminum is NOT what i want in a vehicle that off-roads and at high risk for high-centering (aka trucks). Have you ever heard of aluminum skidplate that actually does the job?? Nope. Aluminum is OK in doors, hoods, but i really don't like it in anything underneath a truck or SUV. Unfortunately, this criticism also applies to GM/Ford/Dodge too because they use aluminum in their control arms.
Time will tell...i agree with that.
Koz
New member
I can tell you that I really prefer the way the IS's suspension is set-up over the BMW or the G35. For the street there is just the right amount of stiffness to go balls to the wall but it also has a much smoother ride (driving normally) then the other cars in this class. I think with the addition of a good set of adj coilovers it would be the perfect street set-up for me. I have changed the tires to Ultra HP all-season tires and that eliminated the twitchiness at high speeds.
Koz
Koz
Thai
Elite Member
Koz...you got a great Lexus there...it is very reliable, even compared to the other Lexus vehicles! I like it a lot...i have been disappointed with the G35's performance of late.
If Toyota is so smart about engineering flex into the chassis, then why didn't the other 3 major truck manufacturers do the same?? From what i have been reading through the years, truck and SUV chassis have been getting stiffer/stronger while suspension technology have been advancing.
For example, if my G-wagen or future Land Cruiser come with C-frames, then i am crossing it off my list immediately, no matter what marketing terminology it has. Would you want your 4runner to have this Tripletech frame?? Honest answer. And i bet you that no future SUV will have this frame design.
I am just hesitant to believe what Toyota says nowadays especially after reading all the frame issues with the Tacoma, which is Toyota's bread-n-butter truck.
If Toyota is so smart about engineering flex into the chassis, then why didn't the other 3 major truck manufacturers do the same?? From what i have been reading through the years, truck and SUV chassis have been getting stiffer/stronger while suspension technology have been advancing.
For example, if my G-wagen or future Land Cruiser come with C-frames, then i am crossing it off my list immediately, no matter what marketing terminology it has. Would you want your 4runner to have this Tripletech frame?? Honest answer. And i bet you that no future SUV will have this frame design.
I am just hesitant to believe what Toyota says nowadays especially after reading all the frame issues with the Tacoma, which is Toyota's bread-n-butter truck.
Baba Booey
New member
I'm not sure about this, but I believe the F series Super Duties use a non-boxed frame, while the F-150 uses a fully-boxed frame. I am no engineer, but I have read that some flex is desireable in managing very heavy loads.
I watched a TV program showing Peterbuilt trucks being manufactured, and they do NOT use a fully-boxed frame either.:biggrin2:
I watched a TV program showing Peterbuilt trucks being manufactured, and they do NOT use a fully-boxed frame either.:biggrin2:
