Toyota Trademarks FT-4X Name - FJ Cruiser Revival? UPDATE: REVEALED

[mybabydaddy]

Ugh.... just watched the marketing vid. I have to agree with [MENTION=66316]1engineer[/MENTION], it's actually a smart concept/model. I couldn't do it, but man will it hit big with the up n comings....

I remember when the new Jeep Cherokee released... both myself and my wife said "holy s$&!, what are they thinking?!!". Guess what?... they are everywhere now in the DFW market. People like the idea of a smaller, urban-friendly vehicle that will still take them "out of the city" when they want to go. It's a winning marketing strategy. And most likely, the future of 75% of the "off-road" market. I would guess there will always be Jeeps for the extremists...


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[JsinLegacy]

I do like the removable stereo...

 

[007Tacoma]

The interior is so futuristic, it inspired Starfleet design....

Yeah... but wanting this thing to be an FJ replacement is "a no-win scenario". :drum:

 

[techno]

If I was a Toyota sales/marketing executive, I would be looking at the sales figures of the Wrangler and coming to the realization that no matter how many 'professional reviewers' blast and criticize it, it continues to sell extremely well and has showed healthy sales growth for nearly a decade. I would want a piece of that market.
This FT-4X could do that and more and still appeal to their target market AND the Wrangler market. It just needs to do one simple thing. Be customizable! The basic Jeep is a great urban fun ride, but with a few simple add ons it becomes so much more and consequently appeals to a wider audience. Jeep don't even have to market the Wrangler because their customers do it for them! Everytime someone puts bigger offroad tires on, it advertises the toughness and capabilities it has. Simply knowing your vehicle CAN do awesome stuff offroad is a major selling point. It demonstrates built in toughness whether you want it or not, and that is a big plus.
If this concept had room for 33's and decent suspension travel, but everything else remained exactly as we see it, it would still appeal to the millennial market, but also the enthusiasts. Boom, they just increased projected sales.

 

[JustinB]

I'm really opinionless here on this...I did find it hilarious though that they had to paint the scenery, as if to say it can't actually take you to cool places, just looks like it can. Obviously probably not true, and it probably can go anywhere the new cherokees/renegades can, but still...I wouldn't have faked scenery on a vehicle you're trying to market to actually take you to the scenery.

I'm not one for themes and reading between the lines but this smacked me right in the face with the feeling of wrapping up the future of outdoors, today's 'adventurous' youth who can't live without a cell phone, and the future of offroading into one giant ball of "we're well on our way to virtual hiking/camping/offroading/adventure". You paint your scenery, fake some snow, plug in your phones, never leave your stereo, lay your sleeping bag on pavement. You don't even need to leave to see anything.

I'm really just critiquing the beginning of that youtube video. As for the car. Eh, not for me, but I'm sure others will love it.

 

[Dalko43]

I like the thing. Would be great option for an urban person.... scratch that.... would be a much more realistic option for 95% of the people who buy 4Runners thinking or dreaming of the wild but never going there. This is what they need.

People buy a 4Runner because they think they will go hard off road... most never do.
People buy a 4Runner because they think they will buy a trailer... most never do.
People buy a 4Runner because they think they need the room... most never do.
People buy a 4Runner because they think it gives them a rugged image... lots do.

You're post spells out exactly what I'm concerned about when it comes to Toyota's "next generation" of 4x4's. I don't want a conservative car company to tell me what "I need." I want to be able to make that decision on my own.
I know what and how often I tow.
I know the type of roads and terrain that I'll encounter for hunting and camping trips.
I know how much cargo I need to be able to carry.

Toyota doesn't know, and likely doesn't care. If this FT-4X concept is simply an edgy way of stealing some consumers from the Jeep Cherokee, fine. But if this concept is going to become the basis of Toyota's future 4x4's, then I might have to look elsewhere when it comes time to buy another SUV.

Here's what's really going on, it's Toyota's response to the dreaded Defender replacement, only it'll be 20% cheaper and 200% more reliable.

A good example of company, that was once known for its hardcore offroading vehicles, that has caved in and now caters almost exclusively to rich soccer mom's and overpaid VP's.

The few-remaining 4x4 offroading consumers that are still loyal to Land Rover are very worried that this new "Defender" won't be anything more than a crossover-based look-a-like to it's predecessor. And with Land Rover's track record as of late, I don't blame them.

 

[Gecko]

I think otherwise because it lacks AWD. It's a tall, front-wheel drive hatchback like the Kia Soul or Niro. I'm not going to debate whether "AWD coming soon" counts. Doesn't matter whether that was Toyota's intent all along or that the demise of the Scion brand turned it into an orphan that needed a home.

I'm sure consumers will cross-shop the C-HR against the HR-V or CX-3, especially if they don't care about AWD. Until they add AWD or the FT-4X turns into a production model, I'd still contend that they don't have a direct competitor in that segment.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I'm not sure that I'd personally say the omission or addition of AWD can push a vehicle between classes. Things like weight, ground clearance and cabin size are generally what defines a class and competitive set, but I guess that if you see this as a Fit competitor, then so be it.

Do you consider the Subaru Legacy and Toyota Camry to be competitors?

 

[1engineer]

... I don't want a conservative car company to tell me what "I need." I want to be able to make that decision on my own. ...

The car company is not telling you what you need. They have listened to their customers wants and build a product that will satisfy those wants and make a profit.
While YOU specifically didn't tell Toyota what you wanted, many other customers did, and this is the result. You are a customer just like everyone else and Toyota builds according to the wishes of the target demographic.

Chances are, if you don't like this vehicle, you are not part of the target demographic (millennials, urban, educated, no kids, etc).

The demographic for 4Runners is different, but we all can see where this is headed and it's not CAFE driving the boat. It's the consumer in the target that is driving the boat.

You guys have read the posts... face it: How many here want a no nonsense zero ****s given 4WD built for off road? Now, how many here want a vehicle that LOOKS like that but is great on the highway? If people are honest with themselves then there will be a lot more in the second group than in the first group.

Now, you today, can buy one vehicle that does both extremely well. It's called a Land Cruiser and it sells for $85K. It has very few compromises. The 4Runner is still good at both but it has a bunch more compromises. About $45K worth lol.

To close, we, the consumer, are the problem. We want it all but don't want to pay for it, so manufacturers give us compromise vehicles. And most people are happy their vehicle only LOOKS like it tackle the Amazon. Geez, look at all the build threads in the 5th Gen section. You think the majority of those guys actually do anything besides haul the kids around? But they look good doing it right?

 

[Volcom]

Geez, look at all the build threads in the 5th Gen section. You think the majority of those guys actually do anything besides haul the kids around? But they look good doing it right?

Nail on the head right there.

 

[wfo9]

The car company is not telling you what you need. They have listened to their customers wants and build a product that will satisfy those wants and make a profit.
While YOU specifically didn't tell Toyota what you wanted, many other customers did, and this is the result. You are a customer just like everyone else and Toyota builds according to the wishes of the target demographic.

Chances are, if you don't like this vehicle, you are not part of the target demographic (millennials, urban, educated, no kids, etc).

The demographic for 4Runners is different, but we all can see where this is headed and it's not CAFE driving the boat. It's the consumer in the target that is driving the boat.

You guys have read the posts... face it: How many here want a no nonsense zero ****s given 4WD built for off road? Now, how many here want a vehicle that LOOKS like that but is great on the highway? If people are honest with themselves then there will be a lot more in the second group than in the first group.

Now, you today, can buy one vehicle that does both extremely well. It's called a Land Cruiser and it sells for $85K. It has very few compromises. The 4Runner is still good at both but it has a bunch more compromises. About $45K worth lol.

To close, we, the consumer, are the problem. We want it all but don't want to pay for it, so manufacturers give us compromise vehicles. And most people are happy their vehicle only LOOKS like it tackle the Amazon. Geez, look at all the build threads in the 5th Gen section. You think the majority of those guys actually do anything besides haul the kids around? But they look good doing it right?

Even the automotive press, who are somewhat those gen Y goofballs... that they are targeting... are laughing at Toyota for this joke of a vehicle.

Targeting a bunch of trendy dumb asses is not the way to run a car company. It's been proven 1000x over.

Toyota could turn 10x more profit if they created some Icon vehicles with some grit.

They are being led by a bunch of California design shops. Not people connected with reality.

Also disagree completely about the LC. It is full of compromises.

 

[Dalko43]

The car company is not telling you what you need. They have listened to their customers wants and build a product that will satisfy those wants and make a profit.
While YOU specifically didn't tell Toyota what you wanted, many other customers did, and this is the result. You are a customer just like everyone else and Toyota builds according to the wishes of the target demographic.

No one will ever argue that the hardcore 4x4 market is as big as the crossover/commuter market. That said, there is still a significant demand for good, capable 4x4 vehicles. Again I recommend you go look at the sales numbers for mid-sized and full-sized BOF trucks and SUV's (F-150, Wrangler, Tacoma, Colorado, 4runner, ect.). Those sales numbers have increased quite a bit over the last few years. The demand still exists, albeit it is smaller relative to the demand for passenger cars and 'soft-roading' crossovers, but that's to be expected. The F-150 has been selling over 700k/year over the last 4 years...you can't tell me the demand for offroad, utilitarian vehicles isn't there for Toyota.

Chances are, if you don't like this vehicle, you are not part of the target demographic (millennials, urban, educated, no kids, etc).

Yes, but Toyota already has vehicles catering to that crowd: Rav-4 and CH-R.

You guys have read the posts... face it: How many here want a no nonsense zero ****s given 4WD built for off road? Now, how many here want a vehicle that LOOKS like that but is great on the highway? If people are honest with themselves then there will be a lot more in the second group than in the first group.

People want 4x4's that can handle highway travel but still perform in difficult offroad conditions...it's balancing act for sure. The 4runner and Tacoma do a decent job at it. So does the LC 200. As do trucks and SUV's from other companies. Toyota needs to keep building vehicles that answers the demand for an all-around capable vehicle. The FT-4X is not a vehicle that is going to satisfy that demand.

Now, you today, can buy one vehicle that does both extremely well. It's called a Land Cruiser and it sells for $85K. It has very few compromises. The 4Runner is still good at both but it has a bunch more compromises. About $45K worth lol.

Lol....not sure what you mean by that. What compromises does the 4runner have relative to the LC 200? The 4runner has better mpg, lower curb weight, optional rear locker, and nearly the same payload as the LC 200. Don't get me wrong, the LC 200 is a great vehicle, and with the right mods, I'm sure it is very capable offroad. But it's not the same as the LandCruisers of old. I consider the 5th gen 4runner to be more of a spiritual successor to the LC 80 and 60, while the LC 200 is a heavy, luxury SUV, with some offroading pedigree, catering to the same crowd (at least in the primary market) as Land Rover does.

To close, we, the consumer, are the problem. We want it all but don't want to pay for it, so manufacturers give us compromise vehicles. And most people are happy their vehicle only LOOKS like it tackle the Amazon. Geez, look at all the build threads in the 5th Gen section. You think the majority of those guys actually do anything besides haul the kids around? But they look good doing it right?

The consumer is not the problem. The consumer is buying up Ford Raptors, Jeep Wranglers, Tacoma's and Colorado's as fast as they hit the dealer floors. The market demand for true 4x4 vehicles is there. Some companies are capitalizing on that demand. To be fair, Toyota is capturing some of it with their 4runner and Tacoma sales. My question is when the current generation of 4runner has finally been milked for all its worth (as is Toyota's way) will they replace it with a worthy and capable vehicle, or will they go the route of Land Rover and Nissan and put out a cushy, urban-oriented crossover and call it a day?

 

[Lolrax]

LOLLLL just saw what they revealed!!!

 

[dustinmj]

The reveal is the ugliest vehicle I've ever seen.

 

[smallfry]

Shouldn't this be to off-topic since it was nothing to do with the 4runner.

 

[Knight-Errant]

I think it is a good idea. I rode in my friend's renegade and thought it would be a great little runabout to own, if it were not for the Fiat built reliability concerns (they are made in Italy). I thought it was cool, fun, and surprising spacious inside.

I'd buy one to supplement my 4runner. Renegades sell well so I'm sure many others would buy an FT-4X too.

The T4R crowd tends to be a "macho" bunch, but this little thing will be great.

As for the Rav4, that styling is more conservative and my understanding is that this would have a real 4lo (at least that is what was signaled). The funky/cute/rugged style is what attracts folks to FJs/Renegades/etc.

 

[1engineer]

No one will ever argue that the hardcore 4x4 market is as big as the crossover/commuter market. That said, there is still a significant demand for good, capable 4x4 vehicles. Again I recommend you go look at the sales numbers for mid-sized and full-sized BOF trucks and SUV's (F-150, Wrangler, Tacoma, Colorado, 4runner, ect.). Those sales numbers have increased quite a bit over the last few years. The demand still exists, albeit it is smaller relative to the demand for passenger cars and 'soft-roading' crossovers, but that's to be expected. The F-150 has been selling over 700k/year over the last 4 years...you can't tell me the demand for offroad, utilitarian vehicles isn't there for Toyota.



Yes, but Toyota already has vehicles catering to that crowd: Rav-4 and CH-R.



People want 4x4's that can handle highway travel but still perform in difficult offroad conditions...it's balancing act for sure. The 4runner and Tacoma do a decent job at it. So does the LC 200. As do trucks and SUV's from other companies. Toyota needs to keep building vehicles that answers the demand for an all-around capable vehicle. The FT-4X is not a vehicle that is going to satisfy that demand.



Lol....not sure what you mean by that. What compromises does the 4runner have relative to the LC 200? The 4runner has better mpg, lower curb weight, optional rear locker, and nearly the same payload as the LC 200. Don't get me wrong, the LC 200 is a great vehicle, and with the right mods, I'm sure it is very capable offroad. But it's not the same as the LandCruisers of old. I consider the 5th gen 4runner to be more of a spiritual successor to the LC 80 and 60, while the LC 200 is a heavy, luxury SUV, with some offroading pedigree, catering to the same crowd (at least in the primary market) as Land Rover does.




The consumer is not the problem. The consumer is buying up Ford Raptors, Jeep Wranglers, Tacoma's and Colorado's as fast as they hit the dealer floors. The market demand for true 4x4 vehicles is there. Some companies are capitalizing on that demand. To be fair, Toyota is capturing some of it with their 4runner and Tacoma sales. My question is when the current generation of 4runner has finally been milked for all its worth (as is Toyota's way) will they replace it with a worthy and capable vehicle, or will they go the route of Land Rover and Nissan and put out a cushy, urban-oriented crossover and call it a day?

You say "Toyota needs to do this..." or "Toyota needs to do that..." but, as I addressed above, Toyota just DID introduce this product! This new vehicle will compete somewhat in the space as the Jeep Renegade or Honda HR-V, not the RAV4 or CRV and definitely not the 4Runner space.
Also, how can you put the Raptor, Tacoma and Colorado as a comparison to the 4Runner? I argue that even putting the Wrangler as a competitor to the 4Runner is a joke. What, you are saying that because a vehicle can go comfortably off road then they all are competitors? Might as well throw KTM bikes and the Dodge Power Wagon in the mix then.
The 4Runner competes with the Jeep Grand Cherokee period. The Tacoma competes with the Nissan and the Colorado twins. The Raptor has no worthy competitor, they created a space for that truck. The Power Wagon is the same.

Dude, I was just telling you whose fault this vehicle is... it's consumers just like you and me. It's NOT Toyota's fault that people what what they want. It's their job to provide what their customers want, and they do it pretty well.

When it comes to the next gen 4Runner, I just hope that the customer demand is not going to turn it into a big CUV.

And comparing the 4Runner to the LC? Give me a break. The LC beats it soundly in every category except efficiency. V8, HP, torque, payload, tow rating, luxury, stereo, better glass, more room, real 3rd row, and will go anywhere stock the 4Runner will stock with heavier duty components. Is it $40K better than an LE? That's for the customers to decide.

Everyone is just pissed because they had unrealistic expectations, thinking that this was going to be a FJ replacement. Who said that? Those automotive "journalists" who usually know less than the forum guys said and hyped that. I love it when they use automotive forums as their sources, which they do all the time. Boy, there's a brilliant Pulitzer prize winning group...

 

[Dalko43]

Also, how can you put the Raptor, Tacoma and Colorado as a comparison to the 4Runner? I argue that even putting the Wrangler as a competitor to the 4Runner is a joke. What, you are saying that because a vehicle can go comfortably off road then they all are competitors? Might as well throw KTM bikes and the Dodge Power Wagon in the mix then.
The 4Runner competes with the Jeep Grand Cherokee period. The Tacoma competes with the Nissan and the Colorado twins. The Raptor has no worthy competitor, they created a space for that truck. The Power Wagon is the same.

1) I'm not saying that trucks like the Raptor or Power Wagon are necessarily cross-shopped with a 4runner, but their sales #'s do prove that a significant market exists for offroad-capable vehicles.
2) The Wrangler can absolutely be compared with the 4runner, and is often cross-shopped with it. The jeep's front axle aside, both vehicles offer similar capabilities in similarly-sized platforms.
3) The Grand Cherokee might be considered as the same category as the 4runner, but anyone who has the slightest understanding of trucks and SUV's knows the two hardly compare when it comes to robustness and reliability.

Dude, I was just telling you whose fault this vehicle is... it's consumers just like you and me. It's NOT Toyota's fault that people what what they want. It's their job to provide what their customers want, and they do it pretty well.

Again, go look at the sales numbers for any number of BOF SUV's and trucks...there are plenty of consumers out there who want traditional, 4wd vehicles with decent ground clearance, good towing and and a robust, easily modded platform. Toyota realizes this to some degree, otherwise why else would they still be producing the 4runner in its current form when most other companies have switched to unibody crossover's.

And comparing the 4Runner to the LC? Give me a break. The LC beats it soundly in every category except efficiency. V8, HP, torque, payload, tow rating, luxury, stereo, better glass, more room, real 3rd row, and will go anywhere stock the 4Runner will stock with heavier duty components. Is it $40K better than an LE? That's for the customers to decide.

Like I said, the LC 200 is a great vehicle. In terms of overall build quality, I have no doubt it surpasses the 4Runner in many aspects. But that doesn't necessarily mean its better in true offroad conditions (or if it is, the difference in performance certainly isn't worth the $45k premium you're paying over a 4runner).

The rated payload between the two is comparable (1550lbs for the 4r vs 1570lbs for the LC).
The 4r is lighter and certainly more nimble in technical conditions, as well getting far better mpg's.
The 4r has an optional rear locker. The LC 200, for all it's offroading heritage, doesn't have that option.

For all the quality and pedigree you're getting with the LC 200 (there's no denying it's a capable vehicle, even in stock form), you get far more performance, especially for the money you're paying, with the 4runner. That locking rear diff really makes all the difference, and the lack of it on the LC 200 tells you a lot about where Toyota's focus is with their modern LandCruiser lineup.

 

[rgjohnson]

My 8 year old son thinks it sounds amazing.


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[msp]

Toyota's FT-4X concept learned the wrong lessons from the Honda Element experiment

I thought this was an interesting perspective.

http://www.autoblog.com/2017/04/13/toyota-ft-4x-concept-millennial-marketing-honda-element/?icid=autoblog|news|/2017/04/13/toyota-ft-4x-concept-millennial-marketing-honda-element/

 

[FourEyedWilly]

You say "Toyota needs to do this..." or "Toyota needs to do that..." but, as I addressed above, Toyota just DID introduce this product! This new vehicle will compete somewhat in the space as the Jeep Renegade or Honda HR-V, not the RAV4 or CRV and definitely not the 4Runner space.
Also, how can you put the Raptor, Tacoma and Colorado as a comparison to the 4Runner? I argue that even putting the Wrangler as a competitor to the 4Runner is a joke. What, you are saying that because a vehicle can go comfortably off road then they all are competitors? Might as well throw KTM bikes and the Dodge Power Wagon in the mix then.
The 4Runner competes with the Jeep Grand Cherokee period. The Tacoma competes with the Nissan and the Colorado twins. The Raptor has no worthy competitor, they created a space for that truck. The Power Wagon is the same.

Dude, I was just telling you whose fault this vehicle is... it's consumers just like you and me. It's NOT Toyota's fault that people what what they want. It's their job to provide what their customers want, and they do it pretty well.

When it comes to the next gen 4Runner, I just hope that the customer demand is not going to turn it into a big CUV.

And comparing the 4Runner to the LC? Give me a break. The LC beats it soundly in every category except efficiency. V8, HP, torque, payload, tow rating, luxury, stereo, better glass, more room, real 3rd row, and will go anywhere stock the 4Runner will stock with heavier duty components. Is it $40K better than an LE? That's for the customers to decide.

Everyone is just pissed because they had unrealistic expectations, thinking that this was going to be a FJ replacement. Who said that? Those automotive "journalists" who usually know less than the forum guys said and hyped that. I love it when they use automotive forums as their sources, which they do all the time. Boy, there's a brilliant Pulitzer prize winning group...

I agree soundly here even if I don't like it. I would be very happy if Toyota just introduced the Landcruiser with cloth seats, only two rows, about half the creature comforts and charged $55-65K. I wouldn't hesitate. Even if it meant the discontinuation of the 4Runner in the process. Expand the Landcruiser line into three segments, luxe-barge, utility-barge and dare I dream a modern FJ40 (not FJ Cruiser).

I've come to the realization that I want two vehicles. I want a dedicated tow/offroad/camping vehicle and a very nice posh sports sedan (with manual trans). I don't want a one size fits everything vehicle any more. You give up too much on each end.