Trail premium vs the Limited with respect...

[M1911]

Land Rover reliability is the pits.

I test drove a GX and was unimpressed. The engine was smooth but seemed overburdened by the GX's weight. It felt slow compared to my '03. It drove "big". That is, it felt big, slow, and cumbersome. The fold flat third row seats take up a lot of cargo room.

I really wanted to like the GX, but I just didn't.

I also drove an ML350, which is available with a low range transfer case. Yes, it is a very different vehicle but it does have some offroad capability. It was a far better drive that the GX. It was quite quick and it drove "small". The ML's interior was also far better than the GX, IMO. More cargo room, but it doesn't have a third row. Certainly it is no TRD Pro off road, of course. So it depends upon your priorities.

 

[Biggcrisp]

Land Cruiser or Highlander an option? Ford, GM, Fiat?

What is your upper money limit?

What all do you know you want as far as creature comforts go?

What are your HP requirements?

Lease or buy? How many years or miles will you be driving this purchase?

 

[Bruin1md]

Hey man, no offense w/ the toaster comment - was trying to be funny. Sarcasm fail. Ooops. It's a nice rig. Just not my thang personally. Can't wait to see what you end up with!

Sometimes I feel like researching the holy $%#$%#$ out of a purchase is the most fun part. :vader:

Curiously - why the Lexus and not a LR4? Those things are pretty awesome. And burly. And pretty. Can it be both? Yes. Last I looked owner satisfaction was very high on all their vehicles.

My response came off wrong -- your toaster comment was hilarious-- and true! That's my issue with the GX-- lack of curbside appeal. The trail just looks so much better to me.

The reason I'm not considering an LR4 is because I don't trust RR reliability -- or lack thereof. I actually really like the evoque, but I value totyota reliability above all else, having grown up with them.
I've recently sold my soul to german car makers with my last 4 purchases, and I'll probably always have a fun car that's german, but I want my daily driver/SUV to have a toyota engine if possible......Although I probably will test drive the lexus rcf at some point (if I can get past its front grille)

 

[Bruin1md]

Land Cruiser or Highlander an option? Ford, GM, Fiat?

What is your upper money limit?

What all do you know you want as far as creature comforts go?

What are your HP requirements?

Lease or buy? How many years or miles will you be driving this purchase?

1. Landcruiser seems a bit big for me, although everyone raves about it. HELL NO to the HIghlander

2. I'd like to stay under $45K if possible. Along those lines, I'm shocked at the GX 460 CPO pricing on autotrader. A brand new 2015 GX460 premium can be had with a MSRP of $54-55K with the options I want. Used CPO'd 2012-2013 GX460 premiums with over 40K miles are going for $46-48K listed price..............I get that Lexus holds its value, but that is insane. Of course, I'm coming from the world of Porsche and BMW, where those cars depreciate like crazy over the first 3-4 years, which is why I've bought all of my German cars 1-3 years old and saved a ton.

3. Creature comforts-- I like everything offered in the 4runner Limited edition, but after doing a side by side comparison, I can probably get by without the features that are in the Limited but missing in the Trail Premium. At least I think I can-- lol. How comfortable is the Softex in the TE premium for long drives??

4. Leasing vs buying--> first off, it depends on the money factor involved. Audi for example are terrible cars to lease for the most part b/c the money factor compared to BMW or even Lexus sucks. In this case, if I buy a 4runner, I would buy b/c this would be a car I would like to keep at least 5 years to have as my rugged/reliable car that will be with me, and it seems to be a non brainer given how well 4runners also hold their value. I doubt I'll put more than 10K miles/year on it.

5. HP requirements: this is where it gets tricky. I can't have German performance in a Japanese 4WD truck that is meant to be taken off road, and I realize that.
The 4runner drives completely differently/sluggish compared to the X6 I will be leaving behind , but that's something I will get used to over time as I adjust to it.

 

[Biggcrisp]

A salesman will shake your hand and ask: what color do you want?

If his lips start moving after that he is going to be lying.

Looks like you are close to a decision.

 

[M1911]

2. I'd like to stay under $45K if possible. Along those lines, I'm shocked at the GX 460 CPO pricing on autotrader. A brand new 2015 GX460 premium can be had with a MSRP of $54-55K with the options I want. Used CPO'd 2012-2013 GX460 premiums with over 40K miles are going for $46-48K listed price..............I get that Lexus holds its value, but that is insane. Of course, I'm coming from the world of Porsche and BMW, where those cars depreciate like crazy over the first 3-4 years, which is why I've bought all of my German cars 1-3 years old and saved a ton.

Some brands just don't make much sense to buy used, and Toyota is one of them. Mercedes, BMW, and Porsche -- you can get a 1-3 year-old CPO and save a ton of money. Toyota and Lexus? Not so much.

5. HP requirements: this is where it gets tricky. I can't have German performance in a Japanese 4WD truck that is meant to be taken off road, and I realize that.
The 4runner drives completely differently/sluggish compared to the X6 I will be leaving behind , but that's something I will get used to over time as I adjust to it.

The 5th gen is just too sluggish for my taste. I'm hoping that Toyota will at least give it a 6-speed transmission and find some way to improve fuel economy. But I'm not holding my breath. In the meantime, I'll be holding on to my 4th gen V8.

 

[M1911]

The TPMS does not work like this on 4runner. Each sensor must be programmed in with specialized equipment and it can only recognize 4 sensors at a time. Every time tpms are changed it needs reprogrammed.

That sucks.

 

[xpress]

The TPMS does not work like this on 4runner. Each sensor must be programmed in with specialized equipment and it can only recognize 4 sensors at a time. Every time tpms are changed it needs reprogrammed.

Is this for any type of wheel change even if it's the same diameter? This would suck big time. I was planning to keep OEM 20" wheels with snow tires and then change to a new wheel (new 20" non-OEM or maybe now 17/18") for summer.

 

[Biggcrisp]

Some brands just don't make much sense to buy used, and Toyota is one of them. Mercedes, BMW, and Porsche -- you can get a 1-3 year-old CPO and save a ton of money. Toyota and Lexus? Not so much.



The 5th gen is just too sluggish for my taste. I'm hoping that Toyota will at least give it a 6-speed transmission and find some way to improve fuel economy. But I'm not holding my breath. In the meantime, I'll be holding on to my 4th gen V8.

I'm not sold on the ZF transmissions...yet. Lol

8 speeds for example: They have a 1:1 direct drive gear plus two overdrives. All the other gears are lower.

5 or 6 speed would still have a 1:1 direct drive gear plus two overdrives. The other gears would be lower (just fewer of them).

Think about where a stall converter locks up and engine RPM. In overdrive all would be equal. It would make sense that an 8 speed would be less efficient because you would spend more time at a higher engine RPM during accceleration. It might feel faster though?

Maybe someone can provide a chart. Haha

 

[Kennyr44]

Land Rover reliability is the pits.

I test drove a GX and was unimpressed. The engine was smooth but seemed overburdened by the GX's weight. It felt slow compared to my '03. It drove "big". That is, it felt big, slow, and cumbersome. The fold flat third row seats take up a lot of cargo room.

I really wanted to like the GX, but I just didn't.

I also drove an ML350, which is available with a low range transfer case. Yes, it is a very different vehicle but it does have some offroad capability. It was a far better drive that the GX. It was quite quick and it drove "small". The ML's interior was also far better than the GX, IMO. More cargo room, but it doesn't have a third row. Certainly it is no TRD Pro off road, of course. So it depends upon your priorities.

You do NOT want to own a ML350 out of warranty. Trust me it is a nightmare. The Jeep Grand Cheerokee is built off the same platform and way cheaper but probably the same POS in the end.

 

[Bruin1md]

Some brands just don't make much sense to buy used, and Toyota is one of them. Mercedes, BMW, and Porsche -- you can get a 1-3 year-old CPO and save a ton of money. Toyota and Lexus? Not so much.



The 5th gen is just too sluggish for my taste. I'm hoping that Toyota will at least give it a 6-speed transmission and find some way to improve fuel economy. But I'm not holding my breath. In the meantime, I'll be holding on to my 4th gen V8.

This is what baffles me about Toyota.

They go from the more responsive and powerful V8 to a V6 in the 5th generation, and don't really make much headway w/r to gas mileage by keeping only the automatic transmission at 5 speeds. Seriously?

It sounds like you 4th gen owners with V8's are a happy bunch

 

[M1911]

I'm not sold on the ZF transmissions...yet. Lol

8 speeds for example: They have a 1:1 direct drive gear plus two overdrives. All the other gears are lower.

5 or 6 speed would still have a 1:1 direct drive gear plus two overdrives. The other gears would be lower (just fewer of them).

Think about where a stall converter locks up and engine RPM. In overdrive all would be equal. It would make sense that an 8 speed would be less efficient because you would spend more time at a higher engine RPM during accceleration. It might feel faster though?

Mrs. M1911's C300 has a 7-speed transmission. It's very nice. The transmission is just seemless. When I drove the ML350, the drivetrain was simply excellent. Very responsive.

The ML350 and the GX470 are similar in size and weight, but the Mercedes gets significantly better fuel economy and is more responsive out on the road.

 

[M1911]

You do NOT want to own a ML350 out of warranty. Trust me it is a nightmare. The Jeep Grand Cheerokee is built off the same platform and way cheaper but probably the same POS in the end.

Mrs. M1911 had a 2002 C240. That was not a reliable car. But her 2010 C300 has been truly excellent. More reliable than my '03 4Runner, believe it or not.

While some of the original engineering for the ML and JGC was shared, that was about it. It was simply engineering design. The JGC does, indeed, have horrid reliability. The ML350's reliability is not great, but it does seem to have higher ratings than the JGC. I don't blame the ML350's reliability based on its common ancestry with the JGC.

As for owning Mercedes out of warranty, I'm with you on that -- we bought Mercedes extended warranties.

 

[M1911]

This is what baffles me about Toyota.

They go from the more responsive and powerful V8 to a V6 in the 5th generation, and don't really make much headway w/r to gas mileage by keeping only the automatic transmission at 5 speeds. Seriously?

It sounds like you 4th gen owners with V8's are a happy bunch

When the 5th gen came out, fuel prices had spiked, so it wasn't a big surprise that the V8 was discontinued. The V6 does get a bit better mileage than the V6.

Unfortunately, the 4Runner also gained a couple hundred pounds in the process. A lot of 5th gen owners are perfectly happy with the drivetrain. Personally, though, I didn't like it when I test drove it. I think it needs more gears in the transmission and either more low-end torque and/or more refinement at higher rpms.

While I like the V8's performance, I have to admit that the 14.5 to 15.5 mpg that I get on my normal commute sucks. I'm greatly enjoying the current gas prices, but I don't expect that to last.

In my opinion, though, Toyota just hasn't invested in the drivetrains for the 120 platform. There are full size pickup trucks that get better mileage than the 4Runner, and those trucks are significantly bigger and heavier.

Unfortunately, a lot of 5th gen owners get bent out of shape when I share my thoughts on the 5th gen drivetrain. Oh well. I don't say it to piss them off, but it does seem to have that effect. I'm just disappointed that Toyota hasn't invested more in the 4Runner drivetrain.

Toyota will be announcing the "new" 2016 Tacoma at the Detroit Auto Show this week. That will likely give us a clue as to potential improvements to the 2017 4Runner. My prediction is that the 2016 Tacoma will be underwhelming. I think it will have the same frame. New body. New interior. It will (finally) get the 4Runner's 1GR-FE V6. I'd bet Toyota gives it a 6-speed transmission and calls it done. If that happens, then I'd bet the 2017 4Runner gets a 6-speed transmission, with maybe a 1 mpg improvement in economy.

 

[NoDak]

This is what baffles me about Toyota.

They go from the more responsive and powerful V8 to a V6 in the 5th generation, and don't really make much headway w/r to gas mileage by keeping only the automatic transmission at 5 speeds. Seriously?

It sounds like you 4th gen owners with V8's are a happy bunch

its because they didn't want a v8 4runner competing with the v8 GX series.

 

[03_4x4Runner]

Is this for any type of wheel change even if it's the same diameter? This would suck big time. I was planning to keep OEM 20" wheels with snow tires and then change to a new wheel (new 20" non-OEM or maybe now 17/18") for summer.

http://www.toyota-4runner.org/5th-gen-t4rs/154410-tpms-swapping-tires-2.htmlAn old post about tpms.

Also from a Tacoma forum. TPMS Options for Multiple Wheel Sets (I.e., Winter/Summer, Street/Off-Road, etc.) - Tacoma World Forums

When I pull into the garage with my tires with no tpms the 4runner picks up the signal from the stock tires in the laying in the garage and the light goes off again. I can drive approximately 20 miniutes after leaving the garage with no tpms before the light finaly comes on.

 

[M1911]

its because they didn't want a v8 4runner competing with the v8 GX series.

They were happy with the V8 4Runner competing with the GX470. So, no, I don't think that is the reason. I think it is about fuel economy and investment in a truck that has a small sales volume.

 

[NoDak]

They were happy with the V8 4Runner competing with the GX470. So, no, I don't think that is the reason. I think it is about fuel economy and investment in a truck that has a small sales volume.

then that doesn't make sense either since the GX sells even less than the 4runner

gx470 would normally sell about 1:4 4runners, on the gx460 up until 2014 its was about 1:5, 2014 gx460 have been pushing right around 1:2

now the profit margin is probably 4:1 vs 4runner so the lower volume is probably not an issue.


edit : forgot to add, now they do use the v6 from the 4runner in the china version of the GX which is funny cause they call it the GX400.

 

[M1911]

then that doesn't make sense either since the GX sells even less than the 4runner

With as small volume as the 4Runner, it doesn't make sense to federalize a second drivetrain. It costs millions to do the EPA testing and crash testing required. So there is no way they are going to do both a V6 and a V8 4Runner with the current volume.

The GX460 is the Land Cruiser Prado in other markets. While the GX doesn't sell a whole lot here in the US, the Prado is sold in higher volume overseas. There are rumors that the GX460 will be replaced in the US market with a crossover.

Lexus to Cancel the GX in 2016, Replace with Seven-Seat Crossover? | Lexus Enthusiast

 

[NoDak]

With as small volume as the 4Runner, it doesn't make sense to federalize a second drivetrain. It costs millions to do the EPA testing and crash testing required. So there is no way they are going to do both a V6 and a V8 4Runner with the current volume.

The GX460 is the Land Cruiser Prado in other markets. While the GX doesn't sell a whole lot here in the US, the Prado is sold in higher volume overseas. There are rumors that the GX460 will be replaced in the US market with a crossover.

Lexus to Cancel the GX in 2016, Replace with Seven-Seat Crossover? | Lexus Enthusiast

the rumor is the GX is going to be called the TX and move to a unibody design, ie: an upscale version of the highlander for lexus.