Turbo Advice

[divide]

I'm looking to replace my 86 4Runner, who's needed an engine rebuild (low oil pressure, leaking oil, and a slight knocking noise) and body work to both front quarter panels grill and etc. I was originally going to rebuild the engine, or put in a rebuilt warranteed engine. However, after a bit of body damage this morning, I'm not sure I want to sink money into it.

I found an 86 4Runner Turbo in decent shape, the guy put a few thousand into rebuild items for the engine, exhaust, rear suspension, and little bits and pieces about 3k miles ago. However, it developed an engine knock and I'm not sure what it will need to resolve the problem.

It looks like a good deal at around $1500, and Turbos seem hard to find, but I don't want to buy myself a never-ending project. The rebuilt items have about 3k miles, the body has just over 200k on it.

Any thoughts or advice here? I know I'm jumping into anything from a simple fix for the knocking (I sure hope so) or needing to put a rebuilt engine in (looks like another $1500 worst case). Does this sound sane?

What else should I be looking at as far as Turbo, and what is the lifespan of the Turbo bits? What's the likelihood that the knock could be easily diagnosable (sounded like the whole head was rebuilt, new valves, new bearings, etc. so it SHOULDN'T be long term wear...)

Any advice would be greatly appreciated! Thanks!

-Peter

 

[fourwd1]

The turbo is good for 150K mi or so.
There are aftermarket rebuilders for the stock turbo (which isn't that great) or aftermarket replacement units (much better than the stock one).
Toyota doesn't sell parts/rebuild kits for it.

Check very closely for frame rust. The Toy frames are notorious for it. They rust from the inside out, so by the time you can see it, it can be bad.

 

[divide]

What should I look at to figure out the state of the turbo parts? I know the guy added an aftermarket boost control, different mass airflow sensor, and a new boost guage... but it doesn't sound like he rebuilt the turbo unit itself.

How hard and expensive is it to rebuild? How expensive are aftermarket parts, and could you do the same thing with aftermarket parts and a standard 22re?

Would you think it's worth jumping into for that money, if the body is in good shape, or would I be better off finding a reliable 22re? It just seems like everything I see available now has high mileage, or a rebuilt 22re that may need rebuilding sometime soon.

Any idea how difficult it is to swap the existing automatic for the manual transmission in my old runner?

 

[zspokess]

If you are refering to the grey one that has been on the Denver Craigs list for a while, then I would be very careful, I spotted it when he first posted it about 4 weeks ago, and in the original post he said that the engine was all freshly rebuilt but had a spun bearing from an unknown cause. (As a friend succinctly put it, I suspect Prof. Plum in the Machine Shop with out a proper parts cleaner) Which says to me that it wasn't rebuilt by somebody who knows what they are doing. In more recent posts it appears as though he's done away with the "spun bearing" language and lowered the price a bit, I'm guessing in an effort to sell it since nobody wanted to touch it after the first post. I'm guessing another full rebuild will be necessary. The exterior looks to be in pretty good shape though, and if it's been in CO it's whole life, then rust shouldn't be an issue. I bought mine and am fixing it up for that exact reason, the body and iterior are a little rough, but underneath it's perfect and that's what matters when I plan on sinking some money into it anyway.

As far as swapping transmissions, I looked into it a while ago and the Turbo 4runners only came with auto's, while same year range pickup turbo's did come with either manual or auto. I've been told by 2 different toyota techs that in order to do the swap you would need to find a manual trans out of one of those turbo trucks. non turbo trans -> Turbo doesn't work

Hope that helps a bit

 

[divide]

Yeah, that's the one I'm referring to. From what he told me, he bought it running last year and it spun a bearing on him prompting the rebuild. 3k into the rebuild it started knocking, so he supposedly towed it home and hasn't started it since.

I was figuring that, clean enough and being a turbo, at $1500 it'd be worth it even if I had to put another rebuilt engine in it. I do still wonder why no-one's picked it up.

Why did the Turbos only come with an automatic? That's irritating. Do they need a more constant throttle to keep the turbo boost up, and a manual would kill that? Or is manual supposed to go with the fancy turboness that you were paying extra for anyway?

I'd rather not sink a ton of money into one, I'd just like a clean and reliable (when I'm doing whatever I have to do to it) 4runner to replace my ailing 4runner.

It looks to me like with the extras this guy has put into it, and the shape it's in, it'd be worth the money for the truck and a rebuilt block... am I nuts?

 

[zspokess]

It does look pretty nice in the pics, I haven't looked at it in person though. I am wary of a situation like that, with a fresh rebuild and then quick problem, it's possible that there is a larger problem requiring more than a rebuild.

You are going through a tough decision and believe me, I've been there. I'm on my 3rd 1st gen 4runner and before this last purchase a year or so ago, I looked hard at the turbo's. I found 2 throughout the US that had the manual swap done, and in talking with those 2 owners found that it makes life much nicer on the road, but off road without the auto, it's a bit of a traction breaker when the turbo kicks in. (any turbo owners who can add to this?) So in the end I went with the cheapest 4runner I could find with under 170K on the original 22RE and a super clean rust free frame. I figured that way I could make everything exactly the way I wanted it. Do the major fixes and upgrades myslef so that I know that they've been done and exactly when instead of taking somebody's word for it.
I'm still in the stages of getting it up to scratch, I'm on the 5 year plan you know? Thought about engine swaps and such but the ultimate reliability of the 22re is very appealing. In the end I am going to try and get a new longblock, slightly bored out, ported & polished, minor cam for low/mid, headers & exhaust. I figure a very reliable 150-160 HP will be possible. With proper gearing that should be enough power to live with.
Although the 3.4 v6 conversion from off road solutions is appealing but also probably in the $7-9000 range after all is said and done.

$1500 sounds good, last I checked it was at $2500. As long as you have the time and resources to put into it before it becomes reliable.

 

[divide]

Well, I'm not sure if it was in or against my better judgement, but I now have a brand new '86 Turbo sitting on a trailer in front of my house. I'm not sure whether to be excited or break down in tears.

The engine noise is a rather loud knocking, louder than the high RPM knocking/rattling noise my other '86 22re was making. It goes away on initial startup when I unplug the 3rd cylinder, but is still noticeable when revved above idle. Sounds kind of like it's coming from the top end of the motor, but it sounds louder than I'd think a valve could be.

What would you recommend checking to attempt to pinpoint potential problem areas before starting to tear the engine apart? Also, any ideas as to what problem or weakenss could have been exposed by changes to the turbo (mass airflow sensor resulting in richer mixture, aftermarket boost control but supposedly left at 10lbs).

I'm hoping that I'll find a simpler problem than "entire rebuild" as it sounds like a good bit of work was put into rebuilding in the first place.

-Peter

 

[fourwd1]

Good luck with your engine problems.

If you want to swap to a manual, you'll need the t-case too.
The case from the auto won't bolt-up to the manual.

The turbo 5 spd is stronger than the 4 cyl version.
It's basically same as the V6 tranny.

 

[zspokess]

I'm afraid I won't be too much help on diagnosing internal engine issues. With the rattling the fist thing that comes to my mind is the timing chain guides are broken.
I had a 22re skip time on me once because of that, it would still run, but there was now power at all (even for a 22re) as the rpms went up the power went down. if it had skipped one more time then there would have been some internal contact and the engine would have self destructed. Possibility?
I realize it was just rebuilt (supposedly) but you would probably be best off looking at everything. Keep us updated with your progress and what you discover.

 

[divide]

That's ok, I have a friend who will hopefully give me some input. I would hope that the loud knocking in the Turbo is something reasonably easy enough to fix considering all of the work and money that's been put into it. It would be nice if I could talk to myself in two months and see if it'd make more sense to buy and install a fully rebuilt block, or mess with fixing this one... Oh well. I'll know what the right decision was supposed to be in about two months

The rattling noise is coming from the 22RE in my old '86 non-Turbo 4Runner. That engine also has low oil pressure and a bad gasket or two (one of them being the head gasket), and is losing quite a bit of oil. This is also the one that was rebuilt a few months before I bought it about 1.5 years ago. I'm not sure what to attempt with that engine, but I'm more worried about it than the engine in the turbo, for whatever reason. I guess I'll see what happens in the next couple months. (First priority is fixing a faulty speed sensor and subsequent shifting/transmission problems in my Audi wagon that's the daily commuter... having all vehicles disabled or out of commission at the moment is extremely frustrating...)

Any suggestions for where to find a turbo manual transmission and transfer case? I'm still fuzzy on what won't connect properly between the block and the engine, as I thought the 22RE and 22RET blocks were identical. Seems like I ought to have enough parts to mate the non-turbo tranny to whatever block I put in there???

-Peter

 

[zspokess]

When I was looking into it over a year ago, the guys at Independant Motors in Boulder (a Toyota, Nissan and Subaru specialty repair shop) said that they could source me a correct transmission. Also I'm sure that you could get one from a big toyota wrecking yard like T.A.P. or someplace similar. Not sure exactly why other than maybe strength as Fourwd1 said. I'm sure there could be a way, there's always a way if you're resourceful. But it would suck to put all the time and effort in only to find out it's not quite right.

Yotarepair.com might be helpful for some answers too.