Unintended acceleration hysteria dying down

[Ron Helmuth]

If you are old enough to recall the Audi 5000 unintended acceleration hysteria of the mid to late 80s I find this latest round of Prius related to have followed the exact same pattern.

For frame of reference I recently inherited a collection of Road & Track magazines from 84-09.

Once the Audi problems were publicized by the mainstream media seemingly everyone and their brother claimed their Audi had the problem. Seem familiar?

Then once science got involved-the overwhelming conclusion was pedal mis-application. Folks convinced they were pressing the brake pedal were in fact proven to be pressing the accelerator. The evidence proved that no vehicle tested was capable of the acceleration overpowering the braking capability.

Again if you are old enough you might recall this Audi scare is what led to the brake interlock device-requiring auto tranny vehicles to have the brake depressed before shifting in and out of Park.

Previous to this (and it was fun I remember) you could simply flip the shifter on autos to any gear you liked at any speed seemingly.... the old cop shows had the police slamming their trannies into Park while still rolling to jump out and chase down fleeing suspects. Made for great TV!

I'll copy and scan the relevant R&T findings related to the Audi investigation if anyone gives a hoot. I found it kind of interesting the various studies and scientific measurements and methods used to prove folks that swore they were pressing both feet on the brakes were in fact just confused-and the power of the mind to believe what it wanted to totally swayed an entire nation.

Now if only I would have picked one of those 5000 Turbos up when I really wanted one....
that car led the way to the jellybean styling-some argue it was the earliest Ford Taurus of course.:barf:

 

[Jed]

I followed the whole Audi unintended acceleration disaster very closely. I've also read several papers/studies on it. In the end, not one Audi was ever found to have had a problem that could cause unintended acceleration. Yet the company almost folded because of what was nothing but driver error.

When Toyota faced a similar ordeal recently, I predicted it was once again driver error. I said that from day one. Why was I so sure? Well, for one reason, no car can overpower it's brakes. This was true of Audi back in the day and it's true of Toyota more recently. So even if there were issues with "sticking" accelerator pedals, the brakes will always be able to stop the car.

And the most recent news that I see for Toyota is that nobody has found anything wrong with the cars that have crashed. Looks like the 80's all over again, but this time with a new name--Toyota.

This issue is all but dead at this point. It's just a shame that a bunch of moronic drivers can team up with the media to create the kind of hype that can really hurt a company and it's shareholders.

 

[Jed]

....and the power of the mind to believe what it wanted to totally swayed an entire nation.

Well, not an entire nation. There were plenty of people who understood what was really going on....but the media took the story and ran with it. They used dramatic stories to get ratings and ended up convincing a lot of people that Audi put out cars that were somehow possessed. Interestingly, this was at a time when electronic controls were basically in their infancy. If you think about it, there were even cars being produced that still had carburetors at the time....

I think the general public is a little more savvy today. Sure, lots of people believed the hype with Toyota, but not like back in the Audi days.

 

[Ron Helmuth]

exactly right Jed

well said Jed!

 

[Koz]

I followed the whole Audi unintended acceleration disaster very closely. I've also read several papers/studies on it. In the end, not one Audi was ever found to have had a problem that could cause unintended acceleration. Yet the company almost folded because of what was nothing but driver error.

There was a LOT more then just unintended acceleration problems that caused Audi to almost fold! Audi was the Yogo at one time!

Koz

 

[Jed]

There was a LOT more then just unintended acceleration problems that caused Audi to almost fold! Audi was the Yogo at one time!

Koz

I'm not saying Audi didn't have other problems at the time, but the "unintended acceleration" mess is what almost sank the ship.

 

[morphius909]

Interesting how the media isn't jumping on the "Toyotas are safe" Storyline.


hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

 

[Jed]

I've posted links to these articles before, but here they are once again....these are the best two articles that I've read about the recent Toyota scandal. Both writers have a true understanding of the issues and an unbiased way of researching them. A good read for anyone interested in the TRUE story:


Toyota Sudden Unintended Acceleration - Pedal and Electronics - Popular Mechanics

The Real Scandal Behind the Toyota Recall - BusinessWeek

I've actually printed these so that I have a hard copy for future reference.

 

[nothardly]

Audi 5000

I bought one of the first Audi 5000's sold, sticking throttle was just one
of it's many problems. Yes the floormat could jam the gas peddle.
But the peddle itself would stick in full acceleration, I would have to
reach down and pull it free by hand. I have long arms, someone shorter
would have a real problem.
To see that after years of testing they could not find the problem is
a joke.
Do not assume everyone who has a problem is incompetent.
Just bought a Four Runner 2011, I feel better that it has brake overide.
A little extra insurance never hurts.

 

[Jed]

I bought one of the first Audi 5000's sold, sticking throttle was just one
of it's many problems. Yes the floormat could jam the gas peddle.
But the peddle itself would stick in full acceleration, I would have to
reach down and pull it free by hand. I have long arms, someone shorter
would have a real problem.
To see that after years of testing they could not find the problem is
a joke.
Do not assume everyone who has a problem is incompetent.
Just bought a Four Runner 2011, I feel better that it has brake overide.
A little extra insurance never hurts.

Nothing was ever found to be defective on ANY of those cars. The investigation took years and was very comprehensive. BTW, the claims of floor mats jamming the gas pedal was a Toyota issue....it was never even mentioned about the Audi 5000.

The whole Audi mess was nothing but user error. People were pressing the wrong pedal and claiming that they were in a runaway vehicle. It's funny how history tends to repeat itself.

 

[Ron Helmuth]

I will scan the Audi info to eliminate the argument

I do believe the floor mats were also mentioned in the Audi case as well.

I will scan the Road and Track story so the facts are available to all. It's quite scientific in nature.

The accelerator systems in the older cars (what I call square bodied 5000s) and newer model (what I call jellybean shaped) were identical. But once the press reported issues with the newer ones-the incidence of claims rose exponentially. Very similar to the Prius situation.

The powers of persuasion are so inherent-that was a major focus of the investigation. Video of drivers tested in which they swore they were stomping on the brakes clearly showed they were not. The mind gets so convinced in what the body is doing it refuses to consider an alternative.

I'm not disputing what happened to you nothardly-but my impression is that you're describing a stuck accelerator cable. From reading your posting I'm not reading that you are saying it stuck to the floor all by itself-as others of the era were. Nor that the brakes would not slow the vehicle.

I'll locate the issue again and post up the scans.

 

[Jed]

I do believe the floor mats were also mentioned in the Audi case as well.

.

The Audi issue centered around the claim that owners were standing on the brake pedal, but the cars just accelerated faster and faster. So even if there was some mention of floor mats getting in the way, that still doesn't change the fact that people were standing on the wrong pedal. It has been proven time after time that the brakes will always overpower a wide open throttle.

Whether or not the gas pedal was stuck (binding cable, floor mat, etc...) is irrelevant because the car could still be stopped by hitting the brake pedal.

 

[Ron Helmuth]

scans now added

February 1988 Road & Track issue :"Solved: The Riddle of Runaway Audis"

Floormat recall was voluntary by Audi in April of 82.(page 54) Sept of 83 they added a spacer to raise the brake pedal to a level higher than the plane of the accelerator pedal. Both of these affected vehicles would have been the early 5000s-essentially the 4000 series vehicle body style with a larger engine.

Here are a few of the scans (1-4) and I will do the rest in next reply.

Same pattern if you see my inference-it starts with the floormats...agreed in that not one single vehicle was found to have brakes not capable of stopping the acceleration.

 

[Ron Helmuth]

more scans

scans 5-9 includes conclusions. High Idle Speeds could have confused some drivers causing panic. Age of drivers affected-not unique to Audi. Low mileage owners typically affected. Pedal misapplication....

 

[Jed]

Ron, thanks for posting those scans. I remember reading that article back in the day. In fact, that magazine (along with hundreds other car mags) is buried somewhere in my basement.

BTW, unintended acceleration isn't something unique to Audi and Toyota. Every brand has had to deal with the same issue at one point or another....but for some reason the media firestorm doesn't always ignite the way it did for Toyota and Audi.

Here's a link to a study on the same complaint for Jeep:

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...olDfm5Pfw&sig2=LOqN3JDsXXwz5ZrzNMupoQ&cad=rja

 

[Jed]

Here are two more good articles that cover the issue:

Mechanical Forensics: Sudden Acceleration

This one is excellent:

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...Kk03fIP0Q&sig2=hyR8oIv6qj71v-1BnvGXgg&cad=rja

 

[Maritimer]

Interesting stuff. Yeah, I experienced unintended acceleration in my 4Runner two weeks ago, my second week driving it. I was backing into the driveway and it shot into reverse and creamed the plastic compost container... except I pressed the gas twice instead of the brake. Unfamiliarity with the car. It's way different from the CR-V, and the pedals take some getting used to. Luckily it's just a small dent and I missed the concrete cinder-block flower beds.