v8 drivetrain in snow

mini kahuna

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I drove my 4runner for the first time in a slippery condition the first time a few days ago and I did a little experiment of taking off from a stop with a little more power than normal...just to see how it grabbed when asked to take off quickly.
I was given an eye opening experience of the rear swinging out broadside like a 2wd vehicle would do.....surprised the crap out of me.
I swear it felt like the right axle wasn't driving or helping for the split second I jabbed the gas pedal.
I tried later at my jobs parking lot and it grabbed front and rear and traction control took over like you would expect wtf.
am I correct that 4 wheel high is providing 4wd all the time of am I screwed up somehow?
 
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I tried later at my jobs parking lot and it grabbed front and rear and traction control took over like you would expect wtf.
am I correct that 4 wheel high is providing 4wd all the time of am I screwed up somehow?

Remember even with 4 hi all the power can go to one wheel on the same differential, the front and rear diffs aren't locked. This can happen when the left tire encounters a slick spot while the right still has traction, in this situation all the power would be transferred to the tire on the slick spot which could let the vehicle slide sideways. Then when traction is regained on both sides you could be headed for the ditch.
 
Actually, the only time an axle will slide sideways is if both wheels are slipping. A non-slipping wheel provides lateral stability.

OP, the 4runner is geared low and the V8 has a lot of low-end torque. Translation: when you goosed it hard you broke both rear wheels loose and lost control of the rear end. The center diff provides roughly a 55% rear 45% front torque split, and the rear end is lighter, so breaking the rear loose on slick conditions is entirely possible to do. VSC and traction control should have dialed back the power pretty quickly, but maybe you got ahead of it.

A little lighter touch and you'll be fine. I love the way mine drives on snow/ice. (If only we had some here...)
 
I guess I am used to the pilot I had, it would not let you go sideways, spin or anything, even flooring it from a dead stop.....completely soccer mom proofed.
that is why I tried some extra right pedal just to see what truck did when you do something stupid and I swung the rear right out.
I tried later in a parking lot and could not get the truck to repeat getting out of shape......it did just like the pilot....traction control dialed back power, skid and spin control took over.
 
Did you happen to have the center differential lock engaged when you tried it the first time and had the spin out? Center diff lock disables VSC (stability control) and will allow you to do doughnuts in the parking lot if you want.
 
Trumpet.....I must have just been on a patch of ice underneath the snow I guess.

Ron....thanks for the tip on the diff lock, it wasn't engaged when I did my test.....didn't know it disabled the stability system, next snow I will "test" with a couple quick donuts!!:cool:
 
Honestly going from my 2002 4x4 auto ford explorer to my 07 4wd sr5 was a surprise also. The explorer would auto engage 4wd when the tires slipped in snow, and was really controllable. As soon as I got on my 4runner in 2wd it did the same thing, even in 4wd it drifted out. Was a bit surprised. Still love my 4runner by all means but the 2wd and 4wd is well... not the greatest in my opinion.
 
some 4x4, some (Limited) 4WD for a V8 models. They behave differently in snow obviously. I really love my 4WD on snow and ice, drives very close to Audis. Safe and with central diff lock quite capable on any winter terrain.
 
Actually, the only time an axle will slide sideways is if both wheels are slipping. A non-slipping wheel provides lateral stability.

OP, the 4runner is geared low and the V8 has a lot of low-end torque. Translation: when you goosed it hard you broke both rear wheels loose and lost control of the rear end. The center diff provides roughly a 55% rear 45% front torque split, and the rear end is lighter, so breaking the rear loose on slick conditions is entirely possible to do. VSC and traction control should have dialed back the power pretty quickly, but maybe you got ahead of it.

A little lighter touch and you'll be fine. I love the way mine drives on snow/ice. (If only we had some here...)

I really agree with your assessment that a light touch is very much required.

There's a bit of controversy about the real torque ratio F/R, as that I've seen 60/40 R/F, respectively, more commonly noted.

Based on the way the truck handles, I would certainly think 60/40 is very reasonable as that it drives like a rear wheel drive truck that can torque steer the front axle.

If the sway bar and rear endlink bushings are in rough shape, the subtle weight movement in low traction conditions can cause the truck to slide out unexpectedly. I think this happens because the wheel that should have the weight (the outside) wheel, loses all its traction due to road conditions, and there's no weight on the inside wheel to compensate... thus, the truck slides. A good sway bar setup prevents weight from shifting around so much (and thereby unloading the inside wheel), and the truck will stay flatter and grip with all 4 tires, rather than the outside two.

When I replaced my rear endlink bushings, the truck felt much more planted on dry pavement. I don't think it'd be a stretch of the imagination that ice/snow condition traction would be dramatically effected by these subtleties.

When the rear endlink bushings are worn out, the sway bar is ineffective because the subtle movements of normal driving do not engage the sway bar at all... it merely moves the endlinks within their "slop" caused by the worn out bushings. So weight can move around from wheel to wheel without constraint by the sway bar system. This is less prevalent on the front... but as the topic of the thread is the rear stepping out; I would think this should be a consideration in the discussion.

The electronic nanny systems will only make up for driver error and physical/mechanical problems (and/or some combination of the two) to such a point... beyond that point, bizarre and dangerous handling problems will result.
 
Tires??? Old or worn tires will also create this effect. I had some old original BGATKO's that kicked ass on snow and ice for the first 4 years. As my T4r wasn't a daily driver I kept the tires as the tread was still 7-8 32nds. The tread looked great, but at year 6 of the tires they became hard and traction went out the window and my T4r did exactly as you describe.

It's not just about tread depth as it can also be about age (aging if always outside in the sun) of the tire that will determine if tire is going to hook up on snow/ice.
 
I guess I expected quicker intervention of the traction and stability systems
I am used to the Honda pilot stopping anything from happening almost instantly.....this is why I always "test" a different vehicle in slippery conditions for the first time.
tires are 2 month old firestone destinations
I tried several times in a parking giving it extra gas from a stop and traction control quickly stopped any wheel spin, or loss of control.... I must of been on some ice when I swung the rear out.
I still think the 4runner is twice the vehicle the pilot would ever be and don't miss the pilot for even a second......just a note to self that v8 4runner is NOT soccer mom proofed
 
Yesterday we just had our first snow of the season that actually stuck to the streets, so I decided to give the VSC a good test in my subdivision. Sure enough, with a very aggressive punch to the accelerator, the vehicle completely spun out. I don't think the VSC ever even activated - I didn't hear any beeping or anything.

I usually don't punch it that hard even on dry pavement, but I guess when pushed the V8 is capable of breaking the wheels loose faster than the VSC can recognize that something is going wrong.
 
I have the V8 as well and I have had my T4R go sideways on just a rain soaked road during dowmpour when I took off at almost 3/4 throttle, caught me by surprise, I almost did a 180 and if it had been in snow I would have easily done a 360 or more with no problem, good thing no other vehicles were anywhere close by and as stated by the OP I haven't been able to reproduce that event again when I want it to happen!!

I would think police officers would hate 4 Runners since they wouldn't be able to get any doughnuts!!
 
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Yeah it is actually AWD, but while that is perhaps useful to get going (i.e. when you'd otherwise stuck) or when climbing a slippery slope (when 2WD cars might go backwards), good winter tires and electronic stability control are what really prevent/help to correct a spin.

Not surprised at all that you find pilot to be more stable for winter roads. From personal experiences, many 'lighter' AWD SUV/Crossovers handle winter roads better than 'heavier' 4x4 trucks (4runner or big ones like expedition), I think the reasons might include:

1. As already mentioned, with V8 comes more torque, with that it is usually more likely to spin when you are starting from a standing still (that's why some SUVs have '2nd gear start' or force that when in snow mode, and a FX45 (even higher torque + a transmission that hates up-shifting) is even worse in this regard).

2. Many 'lighter' AWD SUV/Crossovers are more FWD like (the front axle is contributing more in normal driving) while 4runner and many 4x4 trucks are more RWD like (the rear axle is contributing more in normal driving), it is obvious which one is better at not starting to spin on snowy/icy roads.

3. Wider tires don't really help when you are driving on paved roads, they are probably doing more damage by reducing pressure per unit area.

Anyways, it is better to drive slow and leave all the safety features (AWD, ESC ) as margin for safety rather than attempting to find and approach the line that you don't want to cross (the thing is, you can try all you want in empty parking lots covered with snow/ice, but that line is usually NOT the same while you are on an actual roads as conditions are probably not exactly the same as the parking lots). And if you drives in snowy/icy conditions a lot do consider getting some good winter tires if you haven't already.

Safe driving and happy holidays!
 
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Good post, especially the part about CUV's being more front-drive biased as compared to the 4runner which is rear-drive biased. I hadn't thought of that until now. My wife's Nissan Juke is front-biased that way. It either runs FWD, AWD with front bias, or AWD 50/50, depending on switch settings. It's very stable on snow/ice. It also has a 1.8L turbo-charged engine, which means starting torque gets applied very gradually until the turbo spools up. Completely different feeling off the line than the V8 4runner.

I think the one thing that has surprised some of us the most is how, if you punch the V8 suddenly, the VSC just seems to shut down entirely and do nothing. Not sure what that's about, but certainly the advice to drive carefully and not leave everything up to the vehicle is well put.
 
I am glad i am not the only one that got the tail to come out.....same thing here no lights no beeps, just swung the rear like a crown vic!!!!!!
I always drive careful in slick stuff.... just have to remember the rear will come out if you try and get cute with the right pedal.
 
Unless I lock the center diff my V8 is no fun in the ice/snow. Your try to a force a slide you hear what I guess is the ABS clicking, a beep telling you to stop and then your going straight again!
 
Keep in mind that the center differential in 4th gens is when unlocked, a limited slip and it’s action may not be immediately obvious to the driver as compared to the more reactive clutch based systems found in many modern CUVs. It’s very possible to have your front axle loose traction first causing the LSD to automatically send additional torque to the rear axle, and if you’re cornering the rear end may step out slightly until the front/rear axle speeds equalize through either regaining traction, or both slipping at the same rate. VSC will trigger at some point, typically not until there is already several degrees of unintended lateral slip, but your butt sensor may be going off before that point.
 
First real snow here in Chicago with my new to me 4Runner V8 and I was sad to discover no more parking lot doughnuts. Need to mess around a bit with the locking diff I guess.
 

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