What is the most capable offroad 4WD you can walk into

[Thai]

Actually, a quick googling shows that a 1994 Defender 90 has RTI of 590. I think that this is only marginally better than the 2010 4runner with KDSS...i think that a GX470 KDSS is around 560 or so. The Wrangler Rubicon SWB RTI is 832! The long wheelbase version is over 700 i think. So, i think that the Rubicon can easily outflex the Defender.

Others to compare:
1993 Toyota Land Cruiser (TLC80): 593
2003 Range Rover Mk III (Independent, air): 710 (estimated)
1994 Range Rover County (air): 703
1992 Range Rover County (coils): 670

This is for stock vehicles i believe and was measured by FourWheeler.

 

[LINY4Runner]

Actually, a quick googling shows that a 1994 Defender 90 has RTI of 590. I think that this is only marginally better than the 2010 4runner with KDSS...i think that a GX470 KDSS is around 560 or so. The Wrangler Rubicon SWB RTI is 832! The long wheelbase version is over 700 i think. So, i think that the Rubicon can easily outflex the Defender.

Others to compare:
1993 Toyota Land Cruiser (TLC80): 593
2003 Range Rover Mk III (Independent, air): 710 (estimated)
1994 Range Rover County (air): 703
1992 Range Rover County (coils): 670

This is for stock vehicles i believe and was measured by FourWheeler.

put that in your Land Rover pipe and smoke it, john! :lol:

Seems the Rubi is still on top...being Jeep's only true off-road competitor, you'd think Toyota would've given the 5th Gen Trail a little more. A selectable front locker and a crawl box would put the TE right up there in a close second place, held back only by the IFS.

 

[Duhockey]

put that in your Land Rover pipe and smoke it, john! :lol:

Seems the Rubi is still on top...being Jeep's only true off-road competitor, you'd think Toyota would've given the 5th Gen Trail a little more. A selectable front locker and a crawl box would put the TE right up there in a close second place, held back only by the IFS.

yeah, I still wonder why the 4runner doesnt come with the lockers stock anymore?? I heard the limited slip in the Toyotas arent even close to what we had in the 3rd gen lockers...

 

[LINY4Runner]

yeah, I still wonder why the 4runner doesnt come with the lockers stock anymore?? I heard the limited slip in the Toyotas arent even close to what we had in the 3rd gen lockers...

well the 5th gen TE comes with a rear e-locker.

The rest have A-TRAC which is a pretty brilliant way to get the most out of an open diff. An open differential will send power to the path of least resistance. For example, you flex out so much that you hang a rear wheel. That wheel will recieve all of the torque. Useless. What A-TRAC does is apply the brakes to the slipping wheel, changing the path of least resistance (tricking the open diff, if you will) to the wheel that ACTUALLY does have traction, thus getting you unstuck. Hopefully...

 

[Duhockey]

well the 5th gen TE comes with a rear e-locker.

The rest have A-TRAC which is a pretty brilliant way to get the most out of an open diff. An open differential will send power to the path of least resistance. For example, you flex out so much that you hang a rear wheel. That wheel will recieve all of the torque. Useless. What A-TRAC does is apply the brakes to the slipping wheel, changing the path of least resistance (tricking the open diff, if you will) to the wheel that ACTUALLY does have traction, thus getting you unstuck. Hopefully...

maybe its the Tundras then that have the limited slip...

 

[LINY4Runner]

maybe its the Tundras then that have the limited slip...

Yup its the Tundra/Sequoia and IIRC a few Tacos as well

 

[Thai]

A selectable front locker and a crawl box would put the TE right up there in a close second place, held back only by the IFS.

Locker + IFS = maybe a reliability/durability issue. See: http://www.toyota-4runner.org/off-r...734-ifs-front-locker-article-informative.html

 

[brian2sun]

Locker + IFS = maybe a reliability/durability issue. See: http://www.toyota-4runner.org/off-r...734-ifs-front-locker-article-informative.html

That's what I was thinking too. A front locker + IFS = a lot of busted CVs. I wish Toyota would really make a bonafide TE though. I think most of the people that spend the extra $$ for this edition actually do buy it because of the off road features it comes with, so why can't Toyota take a tip from Jeep and make the TE what it's really supposed to be - completely trail worthy.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a hater on the new 5th gen and I would love to have one - and with the proper aftermarket mods, I'm sure it would be an extremely capable off roader. But I just wish Toyota remembered how right they actually got it 26 years ago. They need to realize that the demographic that is buying the TE wants a SFA, dual lockers, a lift, 33s (at least to start out with), a crawler box, roll bars, and a convertible top. Keep the Limited and SR5s for the regular people!

I've always thought Jeep also has no clue about their demographic either. At least they do make the Rubicon very capable from the showroom floor, but how many Jeeps do you see on the road that are still running 29s at stock height. I see about 10 or 12 a YEAR, but I see about 10 or 20,000 that are lifted with 33s or bigger. If I was the CEO of Jeep, I'd take my head out of my ass and realize that no one likes their Jeep how it came from the factory and 99% of owners lift. Just make the Rubi with 35s, 4 or 5" lift, and geared down from the factory. That would save everybody the hassle of doing it themselves.

 

[LINY4Runner]

That's what I was thinking too. A front locker + IFS = a lot of busted CVs. I wish Toyota would really make a bonafide TE though. I think most of the people that spend the extra $$ for this edition actually do buy it because of the off road features it comes with, so why can't Toyota take a tip from Jeep and make the TE what it's really supposed to be - completely trail worthy.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a hater on the new 5th gen and I would love to have one - and with the proper aftermarket mods, I'm sure it would be an extremely capable off roader. But I just wish Toyota remembered how right they actually got it 26 years ago. They need to realize that the demographic that is buying the TE wants a SFA, dual lockers, a lift, 33s (at least to start out with), a crawler box, roll bars, and a convertible top. Keep the Limited and SR5s for the regular people!

I've always thought Jeep also has no clue about their demographic either. At least they do make the Rubicon very capable from the showroom floor, but how many Jeeps do you see on the road that are still running 29s at stock height. I see about 10 or 12 a YEAR, but I see about 10 or 20,000 that are lifted with 33s or bigger. If I was the CEO of Jeep, I'd take my head out of my ass and realize that no one likes their Jeep how it came from the factory and 99% of owners lift. Just make the Rubi with 35s, 4 or 5" lift, and geared down from the factory. That would save everybody the hassle of doing it themselves.

They sell them very stocked down for the same reason Toyota sells Scion tCs and FJCs with steel wheels- because some people don't want to pay for the alloys if they're just gonna swap them out. I think the fact that the Wrangler comes very basic is actually a selling point- then you can customize it with the parts YOU want rather than what Jeep decides you want.

 

[LINY4Runner]

Locker + IFS = maybe a reliability/durability issue. See: http://www.toyota-4runner.org/off-r...734-ifs-front-locker-article-informative.html

yeah I thought about that after I posted...so maybe the rear locker and the A-TRAC is the best combination?

Should still have a crawl box...my friend's got the 4.7:1 t-case in his 1st gen and in 1st gear you can actually hold the brakes and the truck will still push through without stalling

Maybe someone should work on a 3 speed t-case? High, Low and Lower? Toyota's 4lo is still one of the lowest gear ratios out there at somewhere around 2.2:1, maybe have a second low where you can drop down to 4:1? That would put it over the Rubi IMO...

 

[brian2sun]

They sell them very stocked down for the same reason Toyota sells Scion tCs and FJCs with steel wheels- because some people don't want to pay for the alloys if they're just gonna swap them out. I think the fact that the Wrangler comes very basic is actually a selling point- then you can customize it with the parts YOU want rather than what Jeep decides you want.

I agree it may be a selling point for the regular Wranglers because many people know what they want and they know they can do it themselves cheaper than buying a fully-loaded Rubicon, but I still think since the Rubicon is Jeep's off road flagship, it should come just a little more ready to take care of biz. What I'm really saying is no one is totally happy with it from the factory so why can't Jeep see that? And being that it's ~$10K more than a normal Wrangler, why not just finish it off and put the last couple of things that they know 99% of their customers are going to immediately replace anyways? I know it'll never happen, but I like living in my dream world, haha.

 

[Thai]

I agree it may be a selling point for the regular Wranglers because many people know what they want and they know they can do it themselves cheaper than buying a fully-loaded Rubicon, but I still think since the Rubicon is Jeep's off road flagship, it should come just a little more ready to take care of biz. What I'm really saying is no one is totally happy with it from the factory so why can't Jeep see that? And being that it's ~$10K more than a normal Wrangler, why not just finish it off and put the last couple of things that they know 99% of their customers are going to immediately replace anyways? I know it'll never happen, but I like living in my dream world, haha.

Actually, if i were to get the Rubicon, then i would NOT change much at all...for me and my past off-roading, a stock Rubi is plenty capable. I don't need big tires...32" is good enough. Picking the right lines often will make up for smaller tires, esp. when you have a flexy suspension, compact dimensions, torque-o-rama via 4:1 TC, and full set of lockers for traction. My brother's Rubicon has 32" tires and he can hang with other jeepers on the toughest trails. Obviously, going up a big ass rock with a vertical wall is probably too much, but you get my point.

 

[brian2sun]

Hell, what am I saying. For a minute there I forgot that Jeep threw away the inline 6 that has been loved for decades and replaced it with a V6 out of a minivan. They don't have a friggin clue.

 

[brian2sun]

Actually, if i were to get the Rubicon, then i would NOT change much at all...for me and my past off-roading, a stock Rubi is plenty capable. I don't need big tires...32" is good enough. Picking the right lines often will make up for smaller tires, esp. when you have a flexy suspension, compact dimensions, torque-o-rama via 4:1 TC, and full set of lockers for traction. My brother's Rubicon has 32" tires and he can hang with other jeepers on the toughest trails. Obviously, going up a big ass rock with a vertical wall is probably too much, but you get my point.

Maybe it's a geographical thing. No one keeps them stock around here. Everybody starts out on their 32s and BAM, a year later they're sitting 4" higher and have no smaller than 33s.

 

[Thai]

yeah I thought about that after I posted...so maybe the rear locker and the A-TRAC is the best combination?

Maybe someone should work on a 3 speed t-case? High, Low and Lower? Toyota's 4lo is still one of the lowest gear ratios out there at somewhere around 2.2:1, maybe have a second low where you can drop down to 4:1? That would put it over the Rubi IMO...

I think so for the 4runner.

There is more to the Rubicon than just the 4:1 TC. You will be hard press to design a vehicle from the showroom floor that can beat a Rubicon. Just like BMW knows how to build a small performance sedan or Toyota building a midsize body-on-frame SUV, Jeep knows how to build a Wrangler. You can see that Jeep has lost its way with the other models, but Jeep has retained everything great about the Wrangler from generation to generation. (And yes, i know that off-roaders moan the lost of the 4.0L I6.)

And i believe that it will cost an average Joe more money to modify a base Wrangler than it is to buy the Rubicon model. This has been debated to death on the Jeep forums and the consensus is that the Rubicon model is a bargain for what you get. BTW, the lockers on the Rubicon are no afterthought...those lockers will outlast the best of aftermarket lockers...Jeep did durability testing on it back in 2003 and found that none of the aftermarket lockers outlasted the Rubicon lockers.

 

[Thai]

Hell, what am I saying. For a minute there I forgot that Jeep threw away the inline 6 that has been loved for decades and replaced it with a V6 out of a minivan. They don't have a friggin clue.

Well, it was not as big of a deal as many thought. With the 4:1 TC, you have more than enough low end torque for off-roading with the 3.7L V6. On the other hand, the 3.7L V6 was far far superior to the I6 on-road, esp. the highway...and it is more efficient as well. The V6 has pretty good low-end torque being that it has to move the big and heavy minivan.

 

[2003Can4runner]

Hell, what am I saying. For a minute there I forgot that Jeep threw away the inline 6 that has been loved for decades and replaced it with a V6 out of a minivan. They don't have a friggin clue.

The 4.0 I6 was an extremely reliable motor, very tourquey too, but it was very old and outdated so I think they gave it up due to emissions.

Also, to comment on the 4runner Trail Edition and not having a SFA....I would think you would have to expect to pay more for a TE than a Limited to get what your asking for. There would be a lot of engineering to incorporate a SFA in a ISF design. Not only that, but a locker!? The 4runner is extremely capable as it is. To have a solid axle in the front and a locker would cost the consumer a LOT of money. I honestly think it would cost more than a Limited just for the specialized engineering.

 

[brian2sun]

The 4-door Rubi is only ~$30K so I think Toyota probably could make it more affordable if they made the decision to. I personally wouldn't have a problem if the TE was more $$ than the Limited if it actually came with all the stuff I was saying. The Limited is luxurious, so why does the TE have to be almost as luxurious too? I'd rather they save most of that $$ and spend it on the TRAIL goodies if that's what they are gonna call that edition. That being said, I'm still a big fan of the 5th gen and would love to have one, I could just see it being perfect.

The reason I'm not a fan of the Jeep V6 is simply because it laaaaaags. I've personally had the opportunity to drive two similar 2-door Wranglers, one with an I6 and a newer one with a V6, both with 33s. I've driven both up a 20 mile 6K ft. mtn pass and the V6 is a dog going up long hills like that. I would not buy one. My best friend had a 4-door (non-rubi) Wrangler and we laugh at how slow it is. Stats are one thing, but I truly think they are a way inferior engine in power and it's too soon to compare reliability for me.

 

[Thai]

The reason I'm not a fan of the Jeep V6 is simply because it laaaaaags. I've personally had the opportunity to drive two similar 2-door Wranglers, one with an I6 and a newer one with a V6, both with 33s. I've driven both up a 20 mile 6K ft. mtn pass and the I6 is a dog going up long hills like that. I would not buy one. My best friend had a 4-door (non-rubi) Wrangler and we laugh at how slow it is. Stats are one thing, but I truly think they are a way inferior engine in power and it's too soon to compare reliability for me.

For sure, the 3.8L V6 can't compare to the Toyota engines...probably is not even in the same ballpark as the Kia engines either! However, there is a rumor that, within the next year or so, Jeep will add a diesel (from overseas) to the Wrangler. If that ever comes true, then i just may be back in the market for a 4x4! :boink:

EDIT: here is more info on the diesel that is not for us yet: http://dieseldig.com/2010/03/17/not-for-us-2010-jeep-wrangler-diesel/

 

[brian2sun]

For sure, the 3.8L V6 can't compare to the Toyota engines...probably is not even in the same ballpark as the Kia engines either! However, there is a rumor that, within the next year or so, Jeep will add a diesel (from overseas) to the Wrangler. If that ever comes true, then i just may be back in the market for a 4x4! :boink:

EDIT: here is more info on the diesel that is not for us yet: Not For US: 2010 Jeep Wrangler Diesel

I heard that about the diesel, I would be very interested in that too!