Who won the debate

[Biff]

Looks like Kerry, came accros as more Presidential to me. Although Bush, was more aggresive on this round. I'm surprise Kerry, didn't pound Bush, with todays job report. Oh well haven't made up my mind yet but I'm getting close, have to do more research and do some fact checking on the issues.

 

[MickeyMouse]

I didn't watch this one, I know I'm voting for Bush... it's a slam dunk for us. I watched baseball... it was all around better.

I was happy Boston won today... WooHoo.

 

[linhsy]

IMO,

For better economic, Kerry has a better future. Bush was already given a 4 year- chance so let someone else take a shot.

For the war against terrorism, Bush is doing well so far. At least with his plan, we will be safe as long as we don't go to any muslim countries. We aren't sure how Kerry's plan turns out to be, then let keep it the way it is now.

For foreign policy, Kerry will do a better job in keeping good relationship with other countries. Think about china one day want to invade a weaker country. Let say United Nations doesn't approve china to go to war. Then, China will say " How come US can do it and We can not do it." Right after US made the decision going to war against Saddam Hussein regardless of disagreement from United Nations, US broke the international safety rule which prevent one country to invade others. US already "claimed" that United Nations is worth nothing and are a punch of morons. From now on, any country can go and invade others regardless of United Nations' opinion. Does it make a world a better place?

I wonder whether if US let Bush take care of Bin Laden and Kerry take care of economy & foreign policy at the same time.

 

[Mark86]

I was originally going to vote for Bush because I hated Kerry and Edwards, not because I liked what Bush's politicies. I especially hated Edwards because of his previous profession, getting rich off of doctors. When I heard the rumors that Bush was bringing back the draft, I changed my mind. I think both candidates are weak and don't know what they are doing. I thought Bush did better in last night's debate. He was a bit more prepared and came up with some good answers. I still don't know who I am voting for though. I didn't watch the whole thing because the Yankees were on. GO YANKEES!!

 

[rando]

IWhen I heard the rumors that Bush was bringing back the draft, I changed my mind.

You are really going to decide who to vote for based on a rumor? Also, did you notice that this question was asked and answered last night? There is no plan to reinstitute the draft -- this is just a silly fear tactic to manipulate the votes of draft aged men (and women?), their parents, family and friends. Modern warfare doesn't require a massive human militia.

Having 1, 2, 10, or a 1000 extra soldiers with a gun doesn't do anything to prevent against car bombs, commercial jet-liners used as missiles or similar asymetric threats. Modern war-fare and anti-terrorism requires a small well trained and highly mobile force with superior technology and, most importantly, rapid access to information (i.e. superior intelligence). If we're going to deal in hypotheticals, it would seem more likely that the government might incentivize those people willing to pursue high-tech engineering degree programs or counterintelligence programs. These folks are going to be in demand as the war on terror continues and our militia continues to adapt over the next decade.

 

[Kanab]

I think all of you guys have good points and well thought out positions. I think this election will be a toss-up. I will be voting for Bush since I know what I am getting with Bush and I know he will do whatever is needed to protect this country. Kerry sounds good but talk is cheap and his liberal record does not support what he is saying. I am also for 2nd adm. rights and democrats are for gun control which only disarms the law abiding citizens and not the criminals. With terriorism becoming more of a concern I think gun rights are more important then ever. JMHO

 

[loudog2]

Bush looked very angry. Seemed to be on the defensive a lot.

 

[MickeyMouse]

Kerry speaks allot of how he will have a better plan, but he never really says what that will be... at least with Bush I know what I'm getting. As far as other countries go, I really don't care what they think, I care what's best for us here in America. Sorry if your here in the forum and from another country, but when it comes to who is leading our country, I want someone who will keep the decissions here and not let the UN or some other country decide what we will do or what our millitary will do.

Kerry/Edwards keeps talking about all this stuff they will do, but you know it's going to cost monies and that means they will raise taxes. At least Bush hasn't did that to date, he has actually given us money back in tax cuts... I got two checks since he's been in office... I can't complain, and believe me, I don't make anywhere close to $200k a year... I would be happy to see half of that.

 

[bulldog-yota]

I think by this time the majority of voters have already decided who they will vote for. I understand a lot of people's concerns with Kerry and whether he will be able to lead, he looked and sounded very decisive in boh debates and he didn't change his position once. I was certainly impressed by that.

I'm very disappointed in Bush though, not his debating skills, we know it sucks, but rather his track record. His campaign keep bringing up and distorting Kerry's senate voting record, but lets look at Bush's record in office.
Under his command the following happened:
-The continental US suffered the biggest attack ever under his watch. He failed to do anything in 9 months that could have pevented it.
-The biggest budget surplus in history turned into one of the or the biggest defeced in hostory
-He failed so far on fighting terrorism, he still has not killed or captured Bin Laden objective one of the war in Afghanistan. He missed the mark on the war in Iraq, no WMD. DOnt blame intelligance, you are responsible for decisions made. He now created a fertile ground for bin laden to recruit more terrorists, as it is easy to point to the US as a muslim today and show how the US is a threat to their way of life. Remember a coin has 2 sides. We have now changed the order in 2 countries by force. His only resolve so far has been to try and treat the symptons of terror not the true cause. Killing a few doesn't resolve it as they are replaced, as is already happening. I dont see any action looking into the fundamental problems creating the grounds for terrorism.
-He has alianated the US from the rest of the world, by his administration's inability to be diplomatic when required. It is something that will cost us dearly in the future.

In my opinion Bush has failed the citizens of the US badly and needs to be tossed asap. Show me one good thing he has really done, cause I dont think he knows what he is doing in fighting terrorism.


Yes Bush is sure, but so was Hitler! There is a reason why the whole world is opposing his policies, sometimes you should stop and listen before just rushing forward.

WIll Kerry do the job I dont know, but he can't be worse than Bush. The person I would really like to see in the race is actually Colin Powell. He is firm, knows what he is doing and can apply both diplomacy and force at the same time. I still wished he ran in 2000, we would be far better of today in my opinion.


PS: Remember politics is like religion, you always have strong opinions but it is not an exact science where you can clearly determine the truth of the matter. That is why people believe differently. This is just my 2c.

 

[MickeyMouse]

> he didn't change his position once

He has flipped flop all the years he has been in the Senate and he has flip-flopped since he started running for President. He is always changing his opinion to what fits the moment and is best for his run for the office. Bush may not be a great debater, but at least you know where he stands.

> I'm very disappointed in Bush though

It's all going to be who you are supporting. I'm very proud of Bush, but truly disappointed with Kerry. His record speaks for itself while he was in the Senate, he never shows up for hardly any votes and when he does he flip-flops, I don't want someone running our country who constantly changes his mind and can't show up to make a decision one way or the other in the Senate.

> The continental US suffered the biggest attack ever under his watch

This attack first came under the watch of the previous Democratic President when they tried to blow up both towers. Clinton did nothing about it. As a result, they attacked again, at least we did something this time.

> biggest defeced in hostory

Go back to your first point, if Clinton had did something, it may have never happened and we wouldn't have ever been here. It cost money to defend our freedom and safety.

> He failed so far on fighting terrorism

LOL, the typical Dem view on the subject. The fact is hundreds of terrorist have been captured or killed and we have taken a stand, the previous Dem did nothing and I don't want to end up there again.

> He missed the mark on the war in Iraq

He hit the nail on the head, the terrorist is out of power and more terrorist camps can't continue to be harbored in that country and the people are free.

> DOnt blame intelligance

Of course you would say that, I would to from that side, but facts are it was intelligence because the previous administration destroyed the intelligence community with their poor policies.

> He now created a fertile ground for bin laden to recruit more terrorists

Rhetoric and wrong, they are being hunted down and killed.

> He has alianated the US from the rest of the world

Here again more rhetoric, how do you not count Great Britain as the "rest of the world". We are still a strong nation and many feel it isn't the US job to be everyone's best friend in the world, we fund half the world as it is. I'm sure if we cut the cash flow they would all have a different tune. As far as France and Germany, they don't ever need to be our friends again as far as I see it.

> It is something that will cost us dearly in the future

Your wrong... these countries are already working with us, read the news and keep up on what's happening. Bush and Chaney both informed us of that in the debates.

> It is something that will cost us dearly in the future

At least Bush speaks the truth and doesn't back down, you can't show me anything Kerry has done because he's never in the Senate to do anything, check the record, it's clear.

> WIll Kerry do the job I dont know, but he can't be worse than Bush

He will be worse than any President we have had and it will cost us dearly in taxes. There's a saying that says "10 out of 10 terrorist want Kerry to win"... there's a lot of truth in that saying.

> Yes Bush is sure, but so was Hitler!

How crappy to compare "ANY" President to Hitler. I can't stand Clinton or Kerry, but I wouldn't ever do it. I've read the book "Unfit for Command" that is supported by 95% of the troops Kerry was with in Vietnam with and if you want to know what this man is all about, you need to read the book. He has lied about his service and failed to give the country the complete truth. I'm sure this is what we will get if he makes it into office.

bulldog-yota: The cool thing about this great country we live in is we can have strong opinions on a subject such as this and no one is grabbing us and throwing us in jail (aka China). We can talk, debate and even argue, I love it... we are still free and no one can tell us who we "will" vote for.

Thanks for the yack-yack and good luck with your choice.

 

[Hoomiester]

Just a thought:

In a debate, it seems easier to make the candidate with a history (in the office that is being contested) be defensive. It's much easier to say that you have a plan for everything than to stand there and with everyone knowing exactly how you have handled every decision in the last four years.

I'm not sure I want our current President to acjnowledge that he's made mistakes. He is the leader of the free world and to openly admit a mistake demonstrates weakness.

Especially when the so called "allies" that his opponent wants to include in every decision in the future have been found to be on "the take" with the "Oil for Food" program. It proves they would have done everything to prevent action being taken so that their goals (only) would be met.

Hindsight is very adventageous for candidates.

 

[MickeyMouse]

Hoomiester: I hate to get off topic here, but I've checked around on the Internet for the Westin Safari Light bar you have and I can't find it anyplace for a 4Runner. You mind if I ask where you got this from? Did you get the Chrome model?

 

[bulldog-yota]

Only time will tell who is right and who is wrong.

Mickey: I think we both made our points, mine is just that dont blame the people before you when you are in command. Bush was sleeping for 9 months before the attacks, which was ample time to do something about it. These attacks where launched from within our borders. I'm not comparing Bush to Hitler, I'm just making a point that leaders who always think they are right more often than not end up being completely wrong. When last have you been overseas and actually see what is in the press there and speak to the people. I can tell you that the majority of the Brits I spoke to are not very happy with Blair following Bush like a good puppy. Be careful about not caring about what other countries think, you might ned them sooner rather than later, but you dont have to do what they want that is where diplomacy kicks in. Bush had the money in the bank when he started, and he only drove the economy in the ground in the last 4 years, I dont accept his blaming the previous admin. He had a long time to fix it and he promised a better economy a number of times and never delivered, go back to his statements and you will see. To me he simply did not deliver! As to terrorism, dont ever think you can hunt them dont and just kill them. Rather think about how you stop new ones getting on baord while treating the sympton of the ones that is already there. Look at Isreal, they have not resolved their issue either and they have been hunting and killing them(terrorists) for decades now. At least they know what they are facing, I think we as a country are still clueless on what exactly we are facing in terms of terrorists, our agression alone will not solve the issue.

Hoomiester: Your points are valid, and I have thought through it many times as well. That is why I'm saying Bush blames Kerry in the Senate and Kerry blames Bush for his presidency. All politics.

ANyhow we can yack yack as much as we like, everybody has their opinion and nobody has the crystal ball to tell what the future will bring with either.

 

[MickeyMouse]

bulldog-yota: Well, I don't agree, he was working with what was left behind for him and 9 months isn't much. To be honest, I would prefer someone besides either of them, but I'm going with Bush because I just happen to think he is the better of the two and I will drop this subject.

 

[peter78]

Being a moderator I was concerned when I saw this thread, but it seems to be fairly civil and a lot of good thought and reason.

I saw a poll recently and SUV owners are mainly Republican and Toyota owners are mainly Democrat, so what does that mean for 4Runners owners?

Anyway, I know this is a very important election, lets try to keep it somewhat civil. By the way, I thought the second debate was a tie, I think the regualr people with the questions were better than both of the canidates, if only they would answer the questions asked and not attack each other.

 

[Thai]

Well, being a doctor, i know who i am voting for!!

Hate to say it, but think about this one minute. In the eyes of the Muslims, we (the US) are the most hated country outside of Israel. Muslims would love to bomb us many times over and over again. Muslims have done so on some of our European allies.

HOWEVER, we have not had one single attack on US soil since 9/11...KNOCK ON WOOD. Not one. Not even an attempt. Look at our borders...it's huge! Look at the commercial lanes...it's huge. Yet, the terrorists have not been able to mount anything more than threats on videotapes. KNOCK ON WOOD.

Isn't that damn amazing??!! Whatever we are doing currently is working well. Other countries the size of Texas (or smaller) can barely keep terrorists out. Yet, we are able to do it...effectively. Think about it. Wow!

Both France and Germany have already stated that they won't support the US in Iraq no matter who we have as President.

The economy currently is slowly improving. Considering what our country has gone thru since 9/11, we have come a long way.

And don't even get me started on our healthcare costs. I would love to tell you guys what goes on behind doors or inside doctor's mind these days. Let's just say that doctors practice a lot of "CYA" (aka: cover your ass). A lot of unnecessary tests are being done. A lot of days in the hospital for nothing. A lot of people's credit ratings are destroyed because of astronomical hospital & doctor bills that no one can pay.

Who pays for these healthcare costs?? YOU DO. Lawyers don't care...they get paid at the end of the day. The main victims are the patients themselves. Trust me, i feel really bad whenever i see CYA being practiced at my hospital. My colleagues tell me that i am too "risky" because i don't practice CYA and that i will learn my lesson down the road.... I hope that they are wrong. :nervous:

Trial lawyers can go to hell. (i am just glad that i have not had any experience with those idiots...yet...knock on wood!)

 

[Mark86]

And don't even get me started on our healthcare costs. I would love to tell you guys what goes on behind doors or inside doctor's mind these days. Let's just say that doctors practice a lot of CYA...cover your ass. A lot of unnecessary tests are being done. A lot of days in the hospital for nothing. A lot of people's credit ratings are destroyed because of astronomical hospital & doctor bills that no one can pay.

Trial lawyers can go to hell. (i am just glad that i have not had any experience with those idiots...yet...knock on wood!)

My dad is a doctor and that is why I am so concerned about Kerry and Edwards getting into office. I know many of the doctors are very concerned about this and they have reason to. On the debate last night, Kerry was very evasive when it came to healthcare. With Edwards by his side, it will definitely get ugly for doctors. Kerry couldn't even deny some of the accusastions that Bush made. I did not see when Bush spoke about a volunteer army. I don't think I am an undecided voter anymore!

 

[Thai]

I did not see when Bush spoke about a volunteer army. I don't think I am an undecided voter anymore!

Bush promised that there will be NO DRAFT while he is still President. He stated that due to technological advances, we don't need so much man-power. Hopefully, he is telling the truth....

 

[dancojgl]

I especially hated Edwards because of his previous profession, getting rich off of doctors.

If you've ever known anyone with major medical problems, you would see that doctors are often their own worst enemy (with the exception of Thai, of course ). They actually make a lot of mistakes, including life-threatening ones. So they are, in no small part, partly responsible for the high costs of their malpractice insurance costs.

In the case of frivolous lawsuits, blame (a) the judges, who don't kick the frivolous suits out of court, and (b) the jurors, who actually set the awards...

--Dan
(engineer, not a lawyer )

BTW, I'm a Libertarian (and a veteran), but I'm voting for Kerry because Bush is, quite simply, the worst president this country has ever had. I'd be willing to support a Constitutional amendment to allow foreign-born citizens (Arnold) to run for president, if it also included a requirement that the candidate had to have an IQ of at least 100...

 

[Mark86]

If you've ever known anyone with major medical problems, you would see that doctors are often their own worst enemy (with the exception of Thai, of course ). They actually make a lot of mistakes, including life-threatening ones. So they are, in no small part, partly responsible for the high costs of their malpractice insurance costs.

In the case of frivolous lawsuits, blame (a) the judges, who don't kick the frivolous suits out of court, and (b) the jurors, who actually set the awards...

--Dan
(engineer, not a lawyer )

I don't want to sound like I feel that doctors are right all of the time. They are not and a patient should be awarded money if the doctor makes a mistake. For example, if a doctor operates on the wrong side of the body or if a doctor diagnoses you wrong. Since I am related to someone in that field, I hear about many different frivilous lawsuits, more than the average person. Some lawsuits are plain out wrong and that is what I am concerned with. All I can say is that I learned people will sue for anything.