Why 4Runner isn't rollover prone like Lexus GX

Can anybody under the age of 25 even be able to handle driving a car from the '70s with it's "natural" driving experience. :lookout:

Younger generations will have always have driven cars with computer impedence in situations that are called for but the majority of real driving skills might be lost. I know alot of people that have never driven a manual tranny vehicle.
 
Can anybody under the age of 25 even be able to handle driving a car from the '70s with it's "natural" driving experience. :lookout:

Younger generations will have always have driven cars with computer impedence in situations that are called for but the majority of real driving skills might be lost. I know alot of people that have never driven a manual tranny vehicle.

Here here! Spot on Ron. ESC, and all the rest, yea, nice, and they save lives, no doubt. But it is not a replacement for experience to either not get into the situation in the first place, or get out of it alive if you do.

Started my driving career in 1971, 3 speed on the column. (And I don't mean automatic!) No power steering or power brakes. No power windows or locks. Am Radio only, no AC, ESC, VSC, or any other "C". The steering wheel was the size of some of those ghetto wheels on the cars now. Had to be that big, needed the leverage in order to turn the car without power steering. On board computer? You bet. Could not afford the first "pocket" calculator from Texas Instruments at that time, so Dad bought me a pocket slide rule. Figured out my gas mileage with it. Let's see some of the kids try to drive one those babies today! It would be fun to watch....
 
Jtraskell, first car I drove was a '69 Ford Falcon. Manual steering and manual brakes. It was an automatic, though. The epitome of "luxury" was a '71 Ford station wagon that I drove. Big V8, power steering and brakes. Put I preferred my brother's '72 Capri V6 -- manual steering, manual transmission.
 
Jtraskell, first car I drove was a '69 Ford Falcon. Manual steering and manual brakes. It was an automatic, though. The epitome of "luxury" was a '71 Ford station wagon that I drove. Big V8, power steering and brakes. Put I preferred my brother's '72 Capri V6 -- manual steering, manual transmission.

The Ford Falcon was a pretty cool vehicle. Pretty sporty for a small car at the time. The vehicle I was referring too, unfortunately, was a 66 Rambler Classic. I worked two years irrigating tall corn in Oregon to buy a car. My dad took the money and bought me that, that, thing... but at 16 and 10 miles from the nearest town where you could do anything, I was very happy to have it. (Didn't get a lot of dates though...lol) It was a tank.

During my driving permit days, drove the parents 70 Ford Country Squire Station wagon. Power everything. What a Change!

Remember that magic tailgate Ford had on their station wagons? What would prevent another manufacturer to do the same thing. Think of the 4 Runner with either an uplift, or swing out hatch. Maybe all three. Uplift, swingout, or downward (if the window is down) Wouldn't that be cool.?
 
Some you guys sound like a bunch of old grumpy men.

Kids these days......

Back in my day......

Up hill both ways, through the snow....

You know what? I don't know how to ride a horse. That's because I don't need to anymore.
 
If you are going 60mph and you yank on the steering wheel in either direction no traction control in the world will stop you from spinning out.

People just need to learn how to drive and stop blaming manufacturers for their mistakes.
 
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If you are going 60mph and you yank on the steering wheel in either direction no traction control in the world will stop you from spinning out.

People just need to learn how to drive and stop blaming manufacturers for their mistakes.
That's not how they tested the vehicle. While in a corner, they lifted off the gas. That's it. Nothing particularly unusual.

They do this test on every vehicle they buy, including dozens of SUVs. The only one that failed the test was the GX.
 
Some you guys sound like a bunch of old grumpy men.

Kids these days......

Back in my day......

Up hill both ways, through the snow....

You know what? I don't know how to ride a horse. That's because I don't need to anymore.

We were not being "grumpy" just stating a fact. Nothing better then experience. We then through in a bit of reminiscing to boot. Just a word to the wise young man, you too will be thinking about your first vehicle (s) sooner then you think. One day you will be watching a Barrett Jackson Auction or whatever, and see vehicles you owned now Worth 10 times (or more) the amount you paid for them and initially, kick yourself for ever selling them. Then you will think....if I did not sell that car, I could not get the next one.
Thats when you will realize that memories are far more important then any monetary value placed on the item which you were remembering.

One more tip. At least once before your Techno driven "I don't need to" life get's to a point where you physically can't do it, go learn to ride a horse now while your young. Much easier to learn and much easier to recover from the pain.....Good luck and enjoy. Be safe.
 
Can anybody under the age of 25 even be able to handle driving a car from the '70s with it's "natural" driving experience. :lookout:

Younger generations will have always have driven cars with computer impedence in situations that are called for but the majority of real driving skills might be lost. I know alot of people that have never driven a manual tranny vehicle.

Funny you said that. Had to learn on the spot when my boss asked if I could drive a stick because my partner went home sick - I never drove a stick up until then, let alone a truck, and without power steering. Oh, I grinded gears a few times, but by the time I made it back to the yard I had it licked and never looked back.

Owned a used '67 MGB ragtop in white with a chipped 1st gear and a brand new '74 MGB ragtop in teal blue. Had some great times driving with 'em with the old stick-shift. Double clutching was fun too! If I had to do it over...in a NY minute! :lookout:

I guess the old saying that you haven't really experienced driving until you've done so with a 4 speed still holds water! :driving:

Mike :artist:
 
Here here! Spot on Ron. ESC, and all the rest, yea, nice, and they save lives, no doubt. But it is not a replacement for experience to either not get into the situation in the first place, or get out of it alive if you do.

Started my driving career in 1971, 3 speed on the column. (And I don't mean automatic!) No power steering or power brakes. No power windows or locks. Am Radio only, no AC, ESC, VSC, or any other "C". The steering wheel was the size of some of those ghetto wheels on the cars now. Had to be that big, needed the leverage in order to turn the car without power steering. On board computer? You bet. Could not afford the first "pocket" calculator from Texas Instruments at that time, so Dad bought me a pocket slide rule. Figured out my gas mileage with it. Let's see some of the kids try to drive one those babies today! It would be fun to watch....

My grandfather used to drive a horse carriage.......would be fun to see some of you guys drive that

I will agree that it would be nice if a lot of these features could be turned off (and the ones that you can turn off put a freaking light when on / off - come on Toyota) BUT to write long posts about how everyone else can't drive a REAL car is fairly pointless...

I bet you that I am better at driving and texting than you guys :D

EDIT: Kingpin -- missed your horse comment - funny we went for the same thing there :)
 
Now to stay on topic....

I drove by a GX470 today. Can someone explain to me how they got the ESC right on that and not the 460????

Sure looked bigger, taller and had the V8.........

Personally I am thinking they cut to many dollars out of the development of the last round of cars.
 
I drove by a GX470 today. Can someone explain to me how they got the ESC right on that and not the 460????

Sure looked bigger, taller and had the V8.........

Personally I am thinking they cut to many dollars out of the development of the last round of cars.
How did they get it right on the 5th gen and not the GX 460? Dunno, but you might be right about shortcutting development -- maybe they just didn't do enough handling testing to realize they had a problem.
 
Heh. I'm wary of horses for various reasons.

But on the topic of cars my first was a '71 Vega. Gah. Cost me $500 and blew the head gasket inside a year. Second car was a '70 510. Loved it. It had "quirks". But I really learned how to drive in that thing. No power to speak of, a 4speed manual, and power steering? Crazy talk. Cars have come a long way. I'm an experienced driver, probably like most guys, I am overconfident in my abilities, but I am also grateful for many modern day features that mean my daughter will be safer when she gets behind the wheel.
 
This is an interesting issue and subject, and I have many years experience with owning a vehicle rated as a "Do not buy" by Consumer Reports. That vehicle is my 1999 Isuzu Trooper. Please excuse me for this long post, but I do have pertinent information to share.

Like the Lexus, Consumer Reports determined that the 1999-2001 Isuzu Trooper were prone to rollover, but not because of oversteering. What the problem supposedly was with the Trooper was that two wheels on one side of the vehicle would leave the ground when performing a certain evasive testing maneuver that CR still performs to this date.

The test involves driving in a straight line at about 40 mph along a lane that has traffic cones placed directly in front of the line of travel of the vehicle. The cones simulated objects that a driver might have to suddenly evade--like a child running into the street, or a driver in front of you suddenly slowing down or stopping his vehicle.

So the tester is driving down this lane at 40 mph and as he approaches this cone, he suddenly has to swerve to the right or left--without reducing speed--as if he might have to do in a real world situation in order to avoid the child, or vehicle or other object in front of him. The maneuver involves swerving around object then immediately swerving back into his lane as if there are oncoming vehicles approaching him.

CR would put outriggers on the tested vehicles to prevent them from rolling over in the event that they pitched too much, and caused the wheels on one side of the vehicle to leave the ground. According to CR the Trooper failed with flying colors. The only other vehicle to ever fail that test prior to the Isuzu Trooper was the little Suzuki Samari which also got a "Do not buy rating."

So, needless to say, CR really hurt (unintentionally) sales of the Isuzu Trooper--Isuzu's flagship model at the time--and undermined consumer confidence not only in their Troopers but in Isuzu products in general. Isuzu sued CR but lost the court battle. Even though a number of other publications like Car & Driver, Motor Trend, and Automobile magazine down-played the issue by pointing out that Troopers weren't going to just pitch over because someone made a hard turn and that the vehicles were in fact safe to drive, everything went downhill for Isuzu. By 2002 stopped making the Isuzu Trooper. A few years after that they stopped producing any passenger vehicles for sales in the U.S.

Isuzu's key argument in court against CR was that the test was not realistic because most drivers were "unable or unwilling to perform that maneuver." If you think about it, that's a very true statement. Next time you're driving your 4R find a long straight two-lane road with little traffic. Accelerate to 40 mph and maintain that speed. Then think about a kid suddenly running out in front of you or a vehicle suddenly stopping. Do you think you have the skills or gumption, and/or sense of mind--without touching the brakes or letting off the accelerator pedal--to make a sudden swerve to the left, clear the object, then suddenly swerve back into your lane? At 40 mph? That maneuver takes some skill and balls and a lot of luck. Even in a car. How about in your 3" lifted 4R with 33" tires?

Well, I actually made a very similar maneuver (no I'm not claiming I had the "skills and balls"), once, in the 14 years that I've owned my Trooper and it occurred about five years ago. A driver in front of me slammed on the brakes in order to avoid running over something in the road ahead of it--turned out to be a large trash can lid. I just reacted spontaneously and without thought and did the CR maneuver--but only at about 35-38 mph (I think. I wasn't exactly staring at my speedometer before, during, or after I made the maneuver). My Trooper heaved over to the left like the Queen Mary in a storm and it scared the sh*t out of me. But my wheels never left the ground and I managed to safely pull back in front of the stopped vehicle without getting slammed by an oncoming car. After I calmed down I thought, "Damn! That was spooky!"

But here's the deal, in all the years since CR reported that issue, to my knowledge there is not one recorded instance--in the real driver world-- in which an Isuzu Trooper ever rolled over as a result of that maneuver being performed. Not one documented incident that can be attributed to a driver making that maneuver. Nor has it been documented, to my knowledge, that Troopers rolled over more often (again, in the real driver world) or were anymore dangerous to drive that any other SUV. My Trooper has never come close to rolling over and believe me, Trooper's are known for body lean, and I do not feel unsafe when I drive it--nor has any other Trooper owner that I ever talked to.

So as others have mentioned in this thread, what it really boils down to is driver sensibility. SUV's are not sports cars. They have high centers of gravity. They are generally big and bulky. They don't handle or ride like other vehicles. Most of them are "tail-heavy," and have a tendency to fish-tail--like pickup trucks--even on hard surfaces. So, they must be driven differently and with more thoughtfulness. But a lot of people fail to grasp this concept.

So now Toyota is suffering from CR's "Do not buy" warning. But they have learned from history that it's best to just stop sales of the "faulty" vehicle until they fix the problem, because most likely it will also turn out to be a no-win situation for Toyota if they ignored CRs testing results.

Now, I haven't read the complete CR report on the Lexus so I don't know all the parameters of the test or the full report. But I just wanted to share this info because I am speaking as a living, uninjured 14-year owner of another vehicle that CR once reported as "unsafe" and "Do not buy." The most dangerous thing about most vehicles is the person sitting in the driver's seat--not the vehicle under their crotch.

BTW, if I have said anything that might be construed as accusing Consumer Reports of any negative and/or causal actions against Isuzu Trooper it was not intended and I apologize for doing so. (Yes. This is a disclaimer).
 
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