Why don't we ever see LR Discovery's modded out?

[Bumbo]

I've seen the same in King of the Hammers... is a really interesting race... I like the mix of terrain and I like how we see a lot of IFS and SFA suspension setups.

I gotta admit, I am really impressed by some of those rigs... and those rock bouncers are wild too.

I am not really a rock crawler but I didn't really get excited about SFA until I saw how capable those King of the Hammers buggies really are even when compared to those long travel baja trucks.

 

[techno]

I've never seen the English mod the crap out of their LRs...

I have, but not so much in the states because LR's presence is so small here. Overseas there's plenty of modding going on.
Here's a crappy pic of one of my fav Discos.

 

[el_kab0ng]

Is that the famous 'green laning' activity I often hear about over there?

 

[Classic95]

Here's my 1995 Range Rover at Wheeler Lake in CO a couple years ago... Went back last year in my 5th Gen 4Runner and opted not to do that trail. And yes, my bud didn't spot the way I had anticipated and I had to winch myself through that.

Cheers,
Wes

 

[Jayhawk5G]

Your straight axle is good off road but at the cost of on road ride and handling.

Strong steel bumpers will give you better low speed crash damage mitigation but the trade off is losing engineered crumple zones to dissipate energy and reduce g force loading on occupants.

You cannot think of a mod that improves the 4Runner in both on and off road conditions.

Every single substantial mod you make for off road compromises something on road. Every single mod you make for on road compromises off road performance.

Chances are really good every single mod you make will also make the 4Runner less efficient.

We could go on all day man.

Bilstein 5100's... but I agree with you. Which is why other than AT tires in stock size, I haven't modded my 4Runner.

 

[BlackWorksInc]

I would rather have my steel bumper than a plastic bumper in any accident. And while we are on the subject of racing, many of the King of the Hammers unlimited cars do use straight axle suspension because of well...rocks. Baja races and Dakar races have no rocks at all, so no straight axles of course.

True about the King of Hammers, the point was more to point out that SFA has it's benefits as does IFS when built properly; not that one is better than the other 100% of the time.

Keep in mind bumpers are typically steel & aluminum, the "bumper skin" is cosmetic and serves mostly as decorative with some crumple/deflection engineered in.

That being said I'm not disagreeing with you on the steel bumper, I run one specifically because of low impact situations where I'd like to not have to pop the bumper skin back on or replace it because it bumps something at 10mph.

But the point I and others were making is that in doing so you're changing the deceleration value (in this case I am talking about the designed variable of how well the vehicle can reduce the occupants inertia when the vehicle has come to a full stop) in an accident which means a higher likelihood that you will suffer internal organ damage in a moderate to severe accident. We're pointing out the trade off of safety/health for cosmetic/material value; which is the main point that was being made. Modding has it's benefits and it's drawbacks, what you do on one end affects the other, adding a steel bumper saves the vehicle but endangers the occupants.

 

[Sean K.]

Though I've noticed that in the US, many people consider the ultimate 4x4 to be a dedicated "Rock Crawler." By that I mean a vehicle that's expected to purposefully seek out 2' or taller boulders to conquer because they can. Where as in Europe they literally have "Euro-Truck" (which I loved as a kid) where they take essentially modified 2~4 axle utility trucks and overland and trailblaze with them (which does involve crawling rocks sometimes). The focus if more on actually getting through rough terrain and making a trail/path than showing off to people that you can crawl a rock.

So yes I agree, it's a very arbitrary/semantic difference that is necessitated because of differences in culture as to how "off-roading" as an activity is seen in various places. I make that difference because people often tell me "but can your 4Runner crawl big ass boulders?" and I look at them and go, "no, but it can blaze a trail on the road and off the road and drive like a dream doing it compared to your 'ultimate' 4x4." No offense to people who rock crawl, it's a cool sport and those machines are impressive, but they for the most part are less than ideal for anything besides their purpose built activity.

The reason for that "ultimate" mindset is simply b/c a dedicated "rockcrawler" can cover terrain most other types of 4wd vehicle simply cannot. That means by definition that it is more CAPABLE than something that cannot complete a particular trail or obstacle.

Further, if you're out in the western US, surely you realize that many of the more extreme trails in use today are less than 20 years old....some are much newer than that. I've worked with USFS and BLM agents to open such new trails here in AZ as well as maintain them so they can continue to be enjoyed. Europeans aren't the only ones cutting trail.

With regards to your 4Runner comment....a properly set up "rockcrawling" 4Runner even with a SFA will be able to outrun you on the fireroads. On highway....probably not....simply b/c they'll likely be running larger, heavier tire/wheel combos that will make acceleration/braking and CoG an issue, but when you're talking 36"+ wheel travel numbers (not shock travel)....you're going to be hard pressed to try and keep up with it in the whoops. Which means....they are likely going to be faster than you offroad....regardless of whether it's rocks, trail running or blasting down a fireroad to the trailhead.

What you don't seem to recognize is the inevitable trade offs of offroad and onroad capability. It's an inversely proportional relationship most of the time....the better a vehicle is offroad, the worse it is onroad and vice versa.

 

[Sean K.]

Your straight axle is good off road but at the cost of on road ride and handling.

Strong steel bumpers will give you better low speed crash damage mitigation but the trade off is losing engineered crumple zones to dissipate energy and reduce g force loading on occupants.

You cannot think of a mod that improves the 4Runner in both on and off road conditions.

Every single substantial mod you make for off road compromises something on road. Every single mod you make for on road compromises off road performance.

Chances are really good every single mod you make will also make the 4Runner less efficient.

We could go on all day man.

I don't agree with duffdog (high speed crash data doesn't support his claim...and the proficiency of the SFA installer really dictates what you end up with in terms of not only safety, but ride quality, etc.)

I agree with your original statement to which duff responded....but, having test driven a 99 Grand Cherokee WJ at the same time we bought our 99 4Runner....the on road handling was essentially a non-point. Both rode very well and comparably on road, even over speed bumps, potholed streets and the like.

In short, one can make a very well behaved, plush riding SFA 4x4.....just takes a decent amount of knowledge and money.....from lengthening wheelbase and track width, to adding sway-loc type bars, to running properly valved and tuned c/os.

 

[Sean K.]

I would rather have my steel bumper than a plastic bumper in any accident. And while we are on the subject of racing, many of the King of the Hammers unlimited cars do use straight axle suspension because of well...rocks. Baja races and Dakar races have no rocks at all, so no straight axles of course.

And a large majority of ultra 4 cars are now IFS.

But....a lot of baja trucks still run a live axle in the rear on a swingarm type trailing arm linkage setup.

CUSTOM IFS is better at high speed offroading....factory IFS is not even in the same ball park though (***EDIT*** Even with available "bolt on" kits). It is extremely limited in wheel travel b/c the front frame horns on a non-race truck are too wide to give appreciable A-Arm length. Even a Predator Series Truck gets 36" or so of wheel travel....but the A-arms are 3' long on each side and the front frame horns are under 1'.

 

[BlackWorksInc]

The reason for that "ultimate" mindset is simply b/c a dedicated "rockcrawler" can cover terrain most other types of 4wd vehicle simply cannot. That means by definition that it is more CAPABLE than something that cannot complete a particular trail or obstacle.

Further, if you're out in the western US, surely you realize that many of the more extreme trails in use today are less than 20 years old....some are much newer than that. I've worked with USFS and BLM agents to open such new trails here in AZ as well as maintain them so they can continue to be enjoyed. Europeans aren't the only ones cutting trail.

With regards to your 4Runner comment....a properly set up "rockcrawling" 4Runner even with a SFA will be able to outrun you on the fireroads. On highway....probably not....simply b/c they'll likely be running larger, heavier tire/wheel combos that will make acceleration/braking and CoG an issue, but when you're talking 36"+ wheel travel numbers (not shock travel)....you're going to be hard pressed to try and keep up with it in the whoops. Which means....they are likely going to be faster than you offroad....regardless of whether it's rocks, trail running or blasting down a fireroad to the trailhead.

What you don't seem to recognize is the inevitable trade offs of offroad and onroad capability. It's an inversely proportional relationship most of the time....the better a vehicle is offroad, the worse it is onroad and vice versa.

I honestly haven't seen many solid axle set-ups that would do well on high-speed runs. Usually they get any speed and they seem to bounce about really badly, that may be because the vehicle wasn't set-up for it. But most of the solid axle Jeeps and trucks I have seen don't seem to dampen their jounce well at speed, they do well when crawling though.

It could just be the vehicles I've seen being poorly built.

~

As for cutting trails I meant that more as a general thing, a lot of the "off-road culture" in the US seems to be centered around crawling and mudding. Probably a result of the "bro-dozer" culture that's taken off here compared to most everywhere else.

 

[Sean K.]

I honestly haven't seen many solid axle set-ups that would do well on high-speed runs. Usually they get any speed and they seem to bounce about really badly, that may be because the vehicle wasn't set-up for it. But most of the solid axle Jeeps and trucks I have seen don't seem to dampen their jounce well at speed, they do well when crawling though.

It could just be the vehicles I've seen being poorly built.

No offense, but based on what you're talking about....it doesn't sound like you have had a lot of experience wheeling with SAC'd vehicles to be able to really speak to it.

Literally everyone in IFS rigs (some built with quote/unquote long travel kits) that has run behind the 4 or so (I've helped but not completely designed the conversion on many additional rigs) SFA converted rigs I've built have said the same thing: "I cannot keep up with it on the fireroads". Two of those were leaf sprung at that....

 

[BlackWorksInc]

No offense, but based on what you're talking about....it doesn't sound like you have had a lot of experience wheeling with SAC'd vehicles to be able to really speak to it.

Literally everyone in IFS rigs (some built with quote/unquote long travel kits) that has run behind the 4 or so (I've helped but not completely designed the conversion on many additional rigs) SFA converted rigs I've built have said the same thing: "I cannot keep up with it on the fireroads". Two of those were leaf sprung at that....

That's entirely true (I haven't played with much of any built solid axle trucks/SUVs, more stock set-ups), I just am noting what I have seen in my experience (i.e. watching people and doing some short races on trails with them); which is why I mentioned those vehicles may not have been built well to begin with. I'm not doubting you in this case, rather just saying that I haven't really had the opportunity to see a very nicely built solid axle vehicle doing high speed very well. Most of the time it's just bro-dozers and Wranglers with 4Wheel-Parts catalogs puked all over it.

 

[Toffees]

Typically the more mods you do to a vehicle the more chances there are for something to go wrong. The older LRs are awesome purpose built machines without need for modification for the terrain they were designed for( i.e. Long term expedition through mud,rocky surface, etc). Reliability needs to be top priority when your days away from the nearest help. But here in the states some of us have a different perspective on what it means to go off-road( read rock crawling and beating the living crap out of our trucks for fun)

Imagine the maintenance costs of a modded LR!

 

[wadle5]

Imagine the maintenance costs of a modded LR!

DING DING DING. The maintenance on a stock vehicle is insane, let alone modding one and off-roading it............

 

[mnofpeace]

Because, in stock form, they are very capable...until they are not



they suck, and leak, and break down, and leave you stranded, cursing the wheels they run on



who would want to mod that


can you tell im a bit bitter. it was the most fantastic vehicle i ever owned, when it ran well...until it didnt, which seemed to be every three months.


dayum you LR disco...dayum you to HELL!!!!

 

[el_kab0ng]

It's enough to make you want to go out to your garage and hug your T4R.

 

[mnofpeace]

It's enough to make you want to go out to your garage and hug your T4R.

yes it is...

 

[Sean K.]

Do you know what a Jeep Rubicon is? It doesn't sound like you may be familiar. No profile info....so maybe you don't get those in your market? It was specifically designed to be able to do the "Rubicon" trail as well as tested in Moab and designed specifically for more difficult trails. Most every 4wd manufacturer tests in both these areas....so to claim they aren't designed for this use is not really accurate.

Never heard of Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act, either? Read up....in the US, the mfg. cannot deny a warranty claim because of "aftermarket parts" unless those parts can conclusively be shown to have caused the failure of the stock components.

Breaking a part wheeling has NEVER been covered. Take your stock 4Runner and bust the IFS CV offroad and Toyota will not cover it. So....why would Jeep?

Who has said rockcrawling isn't or can't be recreational? Yes, it can be "professional".....but very few competitions have anything even remotely close to a "stock" class that would resemble the types of vehicles we're comparing.

I think you're referencing this comment:

I referenced "recreational" b/c in the US....overlanding is not anything (even recreationally) like what you see in Africa or South America. The "reacreational" use that most actual owners here in the States see pales in comparison to other parts of the world where the ONLY road through an area may be an unpaved one with little other alternative. 1st world problems, right? The point: even with a fancy snorkel (sans real electrical waterproofing in most cases), you won't see most American owners ford a creek/river to the depth that the interior is going to fill with water, let alone break trail in a jungle environment where they're going to destroy the factory paint job.

Overlanding is mostly driving around on dirt roads to get from point A to point B. In the US...most of the time, it's to enjoy the beautiful scenery. Nothing wrong with any of that....but it's not really a test of a 4x4's drivetrain reliability or strength either as a Subaru Outback can do most every "overlanding" trip I've ever seen featured in the US. As you alluded to....you don't really need mods for that.

So was the point of the thread just that the people on this board don't need to mod their vehicles for overlanding? Not everyone here does overlanding....just sayin'.

Let me ask: Why is it any of your business how someone else chooses to use their property provided it doesn't infringe upon anyone elses natural, negative rights?

Funny...you ask direct, pointed questions and never get a response. Instead, a new thread gets started b/c the OP obviously had an "agenda" he wanted to pursue, but lacked the gumption to just come out and say it originally.

SMH.

 

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

In almost every instance where shows like TGUK/TGT represent a Land Rover (and in most cases a LR Discovery), it's always shown working it's way through the English countryside through mud, water, etc, in it's stock configuration.

I've never seen the English mod the crap out of their LRs like we do our 4Rs here and they are just as capable with basic tires (no K02s, General Grabbers, etc). Are we all being duped by conspicuous consumption here in the States into buying a bunch of crap we just don't need or are LRDs just THAT GOOD compared to a T4R?

Because Landrover Discoveries really really suck.

I'm English.

My truck is imported from Japan and modified here, with parts I also have to ship from Japan or the US.

I think that pretty much says it all!

In Australia they say "If you want to drive out into the bush, get a Land Rover, if you want to make it back home again, get a Landcruiser"

Says it all really!

-----------------------

I really want to like Defenders. I love the way they look, and (until they stopped making them) the fact that they didn't change that overall shape for years, but they are hugely overrated.

They are slow noisy and uncomfortable, with terrible ventilation and heating. That's fine as they are geared to off road.. the problem is that they are not that spectacular off road either. People buy heavily into the image. it's a very established brand here, and don't forget, it wasn't really until the 80s where Japanese cars were really a thing here, so all foreign expedition in terms of using vehicles was the standard default of Landrover, which is why something silly like the first car that 2/3rds of the world saw was a Landie. They are easy to fix, but also quite unreliable, the new ones have serious serious build quality issues (as does everything from the JLR group).

I've been stuck in a field in mine and a farmer friend with a defender said "I'll get you out".. didn't even get NEAR me, so we just had two vehicles to dig out (My surf was unmodified then too, on half worn Yoko A/Ts) Another time, the guy that bought my Surf off me (before I bought it back) went to an off road "pay and play" site. The discovery in front had full muds on, and got stuck going up a hill... they all laughed at him as he had ROAD TYRES on (not even A/Ts) and no lift. he mashed the throttle, flew up the hill and nearly rear ended the discovery... the Landrover lot were in total disbelief, as it didn't "make sense"

I think Landrovers are so popular over here because they are "home grown" (*cough* owned by Indians now) and people know them as being a lasting, recognised brand... but these are the same sort of people that probably wish they had carbs instead of EFI as they are "easier to fix"

That said... it would be really nice not having to import everything! Shrockworx wanted $900 to ship a front bumper!

 

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

Not sure I would say LRDs are all that reliable, though (if the disco forums are to be believed). The 4Runner has been available in the UK for awhile now, so why don't we ever hear about them (beyond T4R.org's own forum which doesn't have much content)?

4Runner was only available in 1st and 2nd gen forms, and they never sold that many. The 3rd gen on was never sold here. All ours come from Japan as they are also right hand drive.

European safety regulations are quite different than in the US. Their nanny state would never allow most of the things that we do here unless it was to be an "offroad only" vehicle.

:wtf: Do you have any examples? Are you comparing all of Europe as one country with one set of laws?

Only law I can think of that is would be regularly exceeded from looking at trucks on overseas forums is that wheels/tyres are not meant to "poke" out the side, although thin rubber arch extensions will make that legal, if anyone from the law complains (I know plenty that have vehicles that blatantly flout this law and have no issues at all)

We do have a yearly roadworthiness test (MOT) that checks many things and you can't drive it if you don't pass it (lights, brakes, seatbelts, structural rust, wipers, ball joints bushes, leaking exhausts etc) so obviously of you do something retarded like remove your exhaust and headlights, you won't be able to drive.. but I'd say that's pretty much common sense, and keeps unsafely maintained vehicles off that roads.

Australia have some pretty tight laws, from memory, no lift over 2" was one!