Winter driving...or what's wrong with me?

[IK13]

20 years ago I lived in a place where we had snow winters every year. The roads were plowed, but more often then not we were driving on compacted snow (with polished to ice areas).
I owned a stick shift rear wheel drive light passenger car with no ABS, traction control or any other gimmics. I never used snow chains (but I did try to avoid the mountain passes during bad weather).
I never had a snow related accident.
I had one close call doing a couple of 360s and stopping in the other lane in a two lane road (thank God the tractor trailer in the other lane saw me having trouble and safely stopped 50 yards away). It was snowing, the snow was melting as it touched the ground, then it got colder and it became ice. This made me more aware of how easy is for the things to get really wrong.

20 years later - I live in SoCal. We sometimes get our fair share of rain, but the snow generally is only up in the mountain.
I drive a 4WD 2005 4Runner with bunch of safety features.
Last week was the first time I took it to the mountain. The roads were fine, but there were these two days where it snowed wet, then got really cold and the road got this thin snow/ice that no plow can scrape. Anyways. My 4runner was in 4HI and it slipped a few times even going at very low speeds. No problem to pick up and correct right away, but I was pretty much the slowest car on the road these couple of days...

I'll be darned if I felt any more assured in my heavy 4wd full of electronics SUV, than I was before in my crappy rwd sedan 20 years ago. I do have the Dunflops, but are they really that bad? Or it's me - forgetting how to drive in the winter? I know that the Subarus that were passing me like there's no tomorrow are better suited for such conditions, but all the rest.....heck - I think I might have been better off with my wife's minivan....

 

[Rowan611]

20 years ago I lived in a place where we had snow winters every year. The roads were plowed, but more often then not we were driving on compacted snow (with polished to ice areas).
I owned a stick shift rear wheel drive light passenger car with no ABS, traction control or any other gimmics. I never used snow chains (but I did try to avoid the mountain passes during bad weather).
I never had a snow related accident.
I had one close call doing a couple of 360s and stopping in the other lane in a two lane road (thank God the tractor trailer in the other lane saw me having trouble and safely stopped 50 yards away). It was snowing, the snow was melting as it touched the ground, then it got colder and it became ice. This made me more aware of how easy is for the things to get really wrong.

20 years later - I live in SoCal. We sometimes get our fair share of rain, but the snow generally is only up in the mountain.
I drive a 4WD 2005 4Runner with bunch of safety features.
Last week was the first time I took it to the mountain. The roads were fine, but there were these two days where it snowed wet, then got really cold and the road got this thin snow/ice that no plow can scrape. Anyways. My 4runner was in 4HI and it slipped a few times even going at very low speeds. No problem to pick up and correct right away, but I was pretty much the slowest car on the road these couple of days...

I'll be darned if I felt any more assured in my heavy 4wd full of electronics SUV, than I was before in my crappy rwd sedan 20 years ago. I do have the Dunflops, but are they really that bad? Or it's me - forgetting how to drive in the winter? I know that the Subarus that were passing me like there's no tomorrow are better suited for such conditions, but all the rest.....heck - I think I might have been better off with my wife's minivan....

I don't know if it's your Dunflops or what but I have an 04 LTD w/ Revos and drive through the snow with no issues at all. I would recommend replacing the Dunflops with a better, more aggressive tread pattern. It could also be that you are no longer use to driving in the snow.

 

[4boer]

maybe just out of practice? Find the right parking lot and go nuts. If the ride is totally out of control think about those tires.

 

[trey99ek]

I have the same tires. They are ok, far from anything snow worthy though. They have traction, but I find it very easy to slip and slide the more I get out and drive in the snow. Personally I don't want to spend money on other tires when mine have 3,000 miles on them so for me I will slow down and drive safe. Best to never rush in the winter, let those subies pass you.

 

[Gromulus]

Concur

Don't feel alone, I sometimes feel the same way. live and have lived in the snow-belt/lake effect area of NE Ohio all my life. We live two miles from the snow capital of Ohio and we get our share of all types of weather.

I have had my '04 for several years now and usually feel no more confident on snowy/icy roads (or even wet ones) than I did with my previous FWD cars. I do realize that I am driving a taller, heavier vehicle but I take very few chances. Last winter I was driving in my dad's condo development at 20 mph on a gradually curving road and ended up going straight into a mailbox! (to the tune of a $600 front bumper cover replacement).

I tell people that my 4WD truck just means that I have a better chance of getting out of the ditch once I get there!

I do know that snow tires would make a huge difference but I have never gone that route. with my 4Runner. I did put Blizzaks on my daughters '08 Mazda3 and that vehicle is now our household's best snow car!

I am on my second set of Michelin Cross Terrains and while they are very smooth and comfortable on dry roads, I can't wait until they wear out so I can try something else for the back country and winter weather conditions. I have never been impressed with their off-road (obviously) or winter ability.

If I were to buy another vehicle "solely" for winter weather it would probably be a Subaru Forester (or Outback) with dedicated snow tires. The subies do well on the snow and ice.

Go slow and be safe!

 

[maine runner]

I lived in DC for 15 years and returned to Maine 5 years ago.

Even with the occasional storm (they think 4" is a storm :headslap: ) in DC, the first winter here (seasonal average is 60-100") was a bit of a refresher.

The first snowfall each year always shows up the dum$ss drivers with serious accidents, going off the road, rollovers etc.

Just because one has all the features does not mean you can drive, turn and stop well.

I will say decent tires make a big difference in snow, slush or ice. The stock tires suck in my opinion.

Everyone is going faster does not reflect poorly on you, rather it reflects badly on them.

 

[Falls]

I too felt the same way with my 4R. It took me a while to learn it , it was different than any 4x4 I've had an I have had lots of them.

I disagree with you on the statement about the Subaru being made for that . The 4R should run circles around them , although they are very capable and a blast to drive in snow.

Now that I am used to the 4R and how I can control it when it tried to control me and working with it it is a pretty secure feeling and confident driving in the storms . I hate ice though....... makes me very nervous.

 

[VoytekNT]

T4R is my first truck ever, like you I also drove rear wheel drive sedans in snow and ice. As far as driving T4R now, I had to get use to it, hit few parking lots, etc. I suppose I feel a little bit more confident driving in snow/slush. Now the ice is a different story as all of you very well know that.

 

[4x4v8]

I have the same tires. They are ok, far from anything snow worthy though. They have traction, but I find it very easy to slip and slide the more I get out and drive in the snow. Personally I don't want to spend money on other tires when mine have 3,000 miles on them so for me I will slow down and drive safe. Best to never rush in the winter, let those subies pass you.

I agree, we had the dunflops on our Sequoia and they were terrible. A bit of road sand on the ground and it would slip....Drop them and get some new tires even if they are all seasons...

 

[morphius909]

No amount of Fancy Gadgets/electronics or winter tiers can defeat the ultimate enemy: Physics!

I know with me, we have a Honda and the 4runner SUV.

I hardly ever slip with the Honda.

I'm always making the 4runner kick in VSC and Trac, even with our X-Ice Winter Tires.

Why? 100% because I am much more aggressive, even unknowingly.

Moral of the story: Drive a HONDA! (Just Kidding! LOL)

Honestly though, the T4R is a great winter vehicle, and with X-Ice winter tires, I'm usually flying around with little to no problem. But like others have said before, SAFE DRIVING is the key!

 

[4x4v8]

No amount of Fancy Gadgets/electronics or winter tiers can defeat the ultimate enemy: Physics!

I know with me, we have a Honda and the 4runner SUV.

I hardly ever slip with the Honda.

I'm always making the 4runner kick in VSC and Trac, even with our X-Ice Winter Tires.

Why? 100% because I am much more aggressive, even unknowingly.

Moral of the story: Drive a HONDA! (Just Kidding! LOL)

Honestly though, the T4R is a great winter vehicle, and with X-Ice winter tires, I'm usually flying around with little to no problem. But like others have said before, SAFE DRIVING is the key!

Agreed, in my wife's mazda3 we drive too slow to get into any kind of trouble. hahaha.... with the 4runner we whip around corners...

 

[MikesToy]

I downshift from D to 4 or sometimes 3 (still on 4Hi) on snowy/icy roads. But the max speed limit i go would be 35-40mph.

 

[alaskaman]

Ice Rink

We had 6 inches of snow of Monday and then it started raining. Result is an ice rink. All schools and bus service is closed and suspended. every street except the big onees are clear glassy ice. Yesterday on my way to work a Ford Exploder hit the brakes and slid 100 feet going 10 mph. Today just to spice it up we have 75 mph winds coming off the hills. Stayin in today.

 

[GottaBeTRD]

ive heard this i don't know if its true but some people that have owned 3rd gen 4runners but now own 4th say that the 3rd's were way better in the snow? is this true? i drive the new ones all the time but havn't got a chance to drive them in the snow. my 3rd gen on the other hand is flawless in the snow. (depending on how i decide to drive) i duno i like the downhill assist on the new ones but could all that fancy stuff make it a little more slippery?

 

[EH007]

I owned a 3rd gen before my 4th gen and I honestly don't think the 3rd gen was any better or worse. Well, maybe I'd have to give the edge to the 4th gen because it's ATRAC really works well in snow, especially with the center differential locked. IMO, the only 3rd gens that can match the 4th gens are the ones with the rear diff lock, but those are far and few between. The '09 4Runner with the offroad package should be better than any other 4Runner since it has locking center diff, locking rear diff, and ATRAC. Wow!

 

[alaskaman]

In my short time here this winter in Anchorage I have learned that locking the differential is better than the VSC. More control and I can sense when I am sliding sooner than VSC. When the temperature drops it might explain the experience you have.... when it's above 32 and things are wet you have better traction than when the temperature drops rapidly and everything turns to ice. Either way I am still curious about studs. People swear by them here.

Slip Slidin' away.

 

[GottaBeTRD]

oooo! i havn't even heard of the 09 offroad runer. ill have to look it up!! those new ones are quiet. i like the v8 they feel pretty solid!

 

[Annoyed]

Driving in snow/ice/slop comes down to 1 basic principle.

No sudden changes in velocity or direction are permitted.

That's it. That's the holy grail.

Manage every aspect of your situation around that, and you're golden.

Keep a far larger "cushion" around you than you would otherwise to do this, and and do things much earlier than you otherwise would. And be sure to signal to let other know what you're doing. Start to stop way before the light ahead.. and tap the brake pedal a few times to let the guy behind you know you're starting to stop early.

The explanation of course, is Newton's first law of motion: "A body persists its state of rest or of uniform motion unless acted upon by an external unbalanced force."

Your only "external unbalanced force" is your tires and their traction with the road surface. If you're on ice, particularly wet ice, this is near zero.

It's amazing how stupid people can drive in the winter. Many people who drive SUV's or other 4WD vehicles assume they're invulnerable to physics. Nothing could be further from the truth. Yes, when accelerating, or getting moving, you have a great advantage, since more wheels are exerting unbalanced forces, you can do so far easier than a 2WD.

But stopping is another matter. Larger vehicles are heavier, and it takes longer to stop a larger mass. The 4Runner is about 800 Lbs heavier than the Tacoma I had prior to it, and I can feel the difference; it definitely takes longer to stop on slop.

You can also see some prize idiots driving 2WD's. I recall the first snow of the year. Not bad, an inch or so of light fluffy stuff on the roadway. I catch up to this 2WD econobox, going about 10-15 MPH. Ok, fine, he's not comfortable above that speed. I know there's a 4 lane intersection ahead, and I can see we're going to get the light red. I hang back, panning on passing when safe. So, we are at the light... it goes green. This idiot actually got himself sideways trying to outrun me at the stoplight! I was already ahead of him, so I'm watching in my mirror as he starts fishtailing because he's hitting it too hard.

 

[alaskaman]

Annoyed. :bowdown:

quoting Newtonian Physics on Sunday. sweet. I like the holy grail too. However, when driving at speed on snow the application the energy generated is more like Einstein. A rolling SUV on snow is an energy bomb due to the lack of traction which reduces drag and thereby increases collision mass velocity. Whew. Now for a cup of coffee.

 

[Annoyed]

Annoyed. :bowdown:

quoting Newtonian Physics on Sunday. sweet. I like the holy grail too. However, when driving at speed on snow the application the energy generated is more like Einstein. A rolling SUV on snow is an energy bomb due to the lack of traction which reduces drag and thereby increases collision mass velocity. Whew. Now for a cup of coffee.

I think perhaps you are thinking of the law of conservation of energy, which states that energy cannot be created or destroyed, merely converted into other forms. A moving SUV does indeed contain a respectable amount of kinetic energy, and this is usually converted to heat energy via the friction between the brake pads and the rotors. On ice, the mechanical linkage in this system breaks down as the tires have close to 0 traction on the surface, so the time & distance required to convert this energy to heat is greatly increased. If the vehicle encounters another object before this can be done, the energy is converted to mechanical force and used to bend fenders, frames, people, etc.

Einstein's thoughts on this wouldn't come into play until the velocities in question became a significant fraction of the speed of light. Not something we're going to see with our cars any time soon. For example, the heat generated by atmospheric drag (friction) on the car body would become a serious problem with current metals technology way before you even got near that speed.

Sure that coffee shouldn't be a Jack Daniels?