Working out the Lift Bugs

[Vansnxtweek]

Alright, I've researched until I can't research anymore. Looking for some brains outside of mine to diagnose these two issues...
'01 with a Toytec Aluma lift/standard 3" springs/diff drop kit

Vibration that begins at 55 and goes away at 62/63. Most intense at 60.

"Wandering" is what I'd call the steering. Its like it can't just track straight it catches every little imperfection in the road and I'm having to constantly adjust.

I had this exact setup on a previous 4Runner, so I know how smooth and solid this can be..so I feel pretty certain that something is up.

I was able to help the vibration by greasing all 8 points of the front and rear driveshafts. It was a noticeable reduction in vibration but its still there so I'm thinking I'll revisit those grease points once again and see if I might can get that a little better. Any other suggestions for the vibration? I never had to rotate my rear end on the other 4runner, don't see why I'd need to on this one for pinion angle. Its only a 3" lift.

As far as the steering...

I replaced:
Inner and outer tie rod ends
Lower ball joints
Upper Control Arms/UBJs (JBA Control Arms)
Lower control arm bushings (whiteline)
Sway bar end links
Sway bar bushings
Steering rack bushings
CV Axles

I have a hard time feeling this is parts related when its all new, but it makes me wondering if something isn't right in there. I can put my hand on the steering shaft and feel that play. I don't think this is the fix, but I know it is loose.

I got an alignment after putting about 100 miles on the truck to settle stuff out. Before the alignment I put 4 turns on each coilover to get the height right.

I hate these threads too, so thanks for your time.

 

[Vansnxtweek]

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[Devbot]

Willing to bet the wandering is your panhard bar and could be fixed with a PCK specifically but replacing your rear bushings could really help. If theres a sudden bump/dip in the road, does your ass end feel funny and almost like the car wants to swing side to side?
Chances are you need to replace u joints on your driveline (or get a whole new driveline if it's still OEM - trust me). The needle bearings wear at a certain angle and once you lift and change the angle of the prop rod, you're now subjecting them to a new angle and they won't turn as smooth anymore.

 

[Vansnxtweek]

Willing to bet the wandering is your panhard bar and could be fixed with a PCK specifically but replacing your rear bushings could really help. If theres a sudden bump/dip in the road, does your ass end feel funny and almost like the car wants to swing side to side?
Chances are you need to replace u joints on your driveline (or get a whole new driveline if it's still OEM - trust me). The needle bearings wear at a certain angle and once you lift and change the angle of the prop rod, you're now subjecting them to a new angle and they won't turn as smooth anymore.

Thanks for taking the time to reply man, I wondered about the PCK and have one in the garage ready to be installed. My next moves are to do that and I'm just going to replace the steering shaft vs. welding it. Not comfortable welding that slip joint.

I had let the rear bushings slip my mind a bit. Maybe I should look into doing those, or replacing the control arms themselves. That's a good thought.

Do people go with OEM u-joints or just aftermarket? Being the vibration did get better with the greasing I think it is in that general area just gotta figure out how to attack. There was def. some ear wax old looking grease coming out when i greased those areas and in some places it just wanted to ooze out of one side and it didnt seem to be making it to the other. 215k miles so she has a little age and time on her.

 

[Vansnxtweek]

One more thought, could there really be a downfall in getting aftermarket rear control arms? I'm all about OEM but for 4 metal bars with bushings...seems like it might be worthwhile to try those and if they sucks I can swap bushings in the stockers.

 

[Devbot]

Thanks for taking the time to reply man, I wondered about the PCK and have one in the garage ready to be installed. My next moves are to do that and I'm just going to replace the steering shaft vs. welding it. Not comfortable welding that slip joint.

I had let the rear bushings slip my mind a bit. Maybe I should look into doing those, or replacing the control arms themselves. That's a good thought.

Do people go with OEM u-joints or just aftermarket? Being the vibration did get better with the greasing I think it is in that general area just gotta figure out how to attack. There was def. some ear wax old looking grease coming out when i greased those areas and in some places it just wanted to ooze out of one side and it didnt seem to be making it to the other. 215k miles so she has a little age and time on her.

If you're doing just the rearmost ujoint at the slip yoke any ujoint will be fine. I'm actually having issues with toyota ujoints right now so I can't recommend them personally. But I've used cheapo brands like masterpro plenty of times on different vehicles with zero issues.
If you're thinking of doing all of them you should know when it comes to OEM driveshafts it's heavily recommended you get a new shaft altogether. Long story short the way Toyota made the double cardan joint makes it nearly impossible to replace a ujoint in. Most notably because the yokes are halfway recessed and rounded making it impossible to get anything flat to press on there, but some also speculate the yokes are under pressure with the ujoints installed and flare outwards slightly once disassembled making the new caps difficult as hell to seat flat on the ujoint itself and will often gouge the sidewalls of the yoke. This is something that sounds right to me and was in line with what I witnessed as I didn't read up on it before tackling all 3, took about 10 hours all said and done and didn't even help my vibration.
Should also be noted this isn't expensive at all and you can typically get much better shafts built specifically for your vehicle and your amount of lift, for LESS than new OEM driveshafts (like $300-400 vs $500ish)

 

[Vansnxtweek]

Dang it man, I had no idea! That is some solid advice, I really appreciate that. I will prob. try the rear most one for now being that one is the one that has the most angle change, I'd think. Sounds like otherwise, a new shaft is absolutely the way to go.

 

[spartacus]

The current caster looks to be lower then what jba recommends (3 to 4 degrees). Not saying that would solve the issue but a caster around 3+ would defiantly help.

 

[Vansnxtweek]

I asked them when I dropped the truck off to get the caster up as high as possible. I assumed that they ran out of adjustment. It does kind of feel like a low caster wander but I’m not familiar with what numbers others are getting. I also didn’t realize that JBA had put out a recommend range so I appreciate that a lot. I’m going to contact them.


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[3bears]

there can be so mnay things that can come into play. I did a 3 inch lift and had little vibration...I did have the panhard brackets and well as a diff drop and lots of new suspension goodies.
I recently drove one ( for sale) with a 3 inch lift and was surprised with vibration ( how much over stock or my 3 inch lift)....his 3 inch lift he did not do the brackets or diff drop, but used an extended panhard rod...I think sonoran steel sells that extended adjustable rod..ive read lots of debate on which is better....seems the brackets get the most votes.
. also there has been debate on the diff drops. Many recomend if going 3 inches or more to bring down the front cv angle to cut wear and vibration.....however I have also read that it does not help. I did put the diff drop on mine.
the rear cntrol links, if worn, can casue all kinds of wiggle as well. I will do whitelines on mine. I forget if its the upper or lower but is a pain to replace the bushings.. Also I had worn pan hard rod bushings.
Driveline.....I think when I need one....I will go with a tom woods one....they are cheaper than OEM and supposedly easy to rebuild when time comes. I read someplace that with 3 inch or more a person should greese the driveline, than remove the rear zerk and put in a plug since the angle is so sharp now and the u joint can hit the zerk and bust it off....I did not on mine.But it kind of hints at the angle being so sharp now and I assume any worn parts in it causing any vibration will get magnified.

My next lift will be a 2 inch, but I will still do the pan hard brackets. I beleive that emit actually originally designed them when he only had a 2 inch lift..not sure if I will do the front diff drop on that one, will research that.

 

[spartacus]

I asked them when I dropped the truck off to get the caster up as high as possible. I assumed that they ran out of adjustment. It does kind of feel like a low caster wander but I’m not familiar with what numbers others are getting. I also didn’t realize that JBA had put out a recommend range so I appreciate that a lot. I’m going to contact them.


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I was recalling from memory but here is a quote from their site.
JBA Offroad Upper Control Arms
Factory alignment specs for basically all vehicles call for a certain degree of positive (shown below) caster. This ensures good stability, helps...lifting your vehicle. Tell the tech to set the caster between 3 & 4 degrees when doing the front end alignment.
edit:Customer Support Center

 

[Vansnxtweek]

there can be so mnay things that can come into play. I did a 3 inch lift and had little vibration...I did have the panhard brackets and well as a diff drop and lots of new suspension goodies.
I recently drove one ( for sale) with a 3 inch lift and was surprised with vibration ( how much over stock or my 3 inch lift)....his 3 inch lift he did not do the brackets or diff drop, but used an extended panhard rod...I think sonoran steel sells that extended adjustable rod..ive read lots of debate on which is better....seems the brackets get the most votes.
. also there has been debate on the diff drops. Many recomend if going 3 inches or more to bring down the front cv angle to cut wear and vibration.....however I have also read that it does not help. I did put the diff drop on mine.
the rear cntrol links, if worn, can casue all kinds of wiggle as well. I will do whitelines on mine. I forget if its the upper or lower but is a pain to replace the bushings.. Also I had worn pan hard rod bushings.
Driveline.....I think when I need one....I will go with a tom woods one....they are cheaper than OEM and supposedly easy to rebuild when time comes. I read someplace that with 3 inch or more a person should greese the driveline, than remove the rear zerk and put in a plug since the angle is so sharp now and the u joint can hit the zerk and bust it off....I did not on mine.But it kind of hints at the angle being so sharp now and I assume any worn parts in it causing any vibration will get magnified.

My next lift will be a 2 inch, but I will still do the pan hard brackets. I beleive that emit actually originally designed them when he only had a 2 inch lift..not sure if I will do the front diff drop on that one, will research that.

Good info man and interesting. It is hard to believe how so many people can have different experiences. Literally every part up front has been replaced on mine while doing this so I really hoped for an amazing ride and I'm just not getting that yet. It feels solid but I'm not happy with the tracking that I'm getting. I haven't changed the rear control arm bushings, I am sure that wouldn't hurt but don't feel that its my current issue.

One other thing I think I'll do is re-check the steering rack and ensure everything is super tight and aligned there.

Thanks for the input man. Sounds like you've def. learned from your past experiences on what do and what not to do!

I was recalling from memory but here is a quote from their site.
JBA Offroad Upper Control Arms
Factory alignment specs for basically all vehicles call for a certain degree of positive (shown below) caster. This ensures good stability, helps...lifting your vehicle. Tell the tech to set the caster between 3 & 4 degrees when doing the front end alignment.
edit:Customer Support Center

Thanks again for that, I think I remember seeing that in the manual as well. I did have them write down to get the caster as high as possible in the range and they wrote that down because its on the receipt. I called and the tech wasn't there so have to call again tomorrow. The only thing I can think of is there were two washers given for each side's UCA and it said in the manual you could place these however you wanted to so in my mind I wanted the UCA centered so I put one washer on each side. (UCA mount to inner UCA bushing mating surface) Maybe having two washers on the front would have resulted in more positive caster? I'm not sure how much of a difference a slim washer would make in regards to degrees of caster.

Trying to dig a little deeper and find what the majority of people's alignment numbers look like.

 

[Devbot]

In regard to upgrading your trailing arms I don't think you'll see much benefit unless you're running a major amount of lift or do some fairly heavy crawling, but that's just my 2 cents. I currently use the OEM set so maybe someone that has something like Opt Offroad arms would like to chime in and say otherwise
I'm currently waiting for an opportunity to install my JBA UCAs and was curious about caster angle so this is all appreciated by me as well lol

 

[fortysixandtwo]

I recently did a full suspension and steering overhaul. Added a lift. Replaced damn near everything in the front end and I had a random vibration/wander at 55-65 mph. I rechecked everything, double checked the alignment. Couldn't figure out what I was missing.

Ended up having two wheels out of balance. Now its smooth as glass at all speeds, no wander. Probably had this issue before but my suspension was so clapped out I assumed it was part of that.

Food for thought.

 

[repo]

Try rotating the tires to see what that does if you didnt already. You could try replacing the steering rack guide/spring with the newer kind if you have the roller type. Youre supposed to torque the guide on the bench with no fluid, so doing it on the vehicle is basically trial an error. I think you'd probably have a shimmy felt in the steering wheel if it was the rack guide. I have mine tightened up so the steering is exactly how I like it, pretty tight/heavy but easily returns. I don't like the normal loosey goosey Toyota steering.

 

[Vansnxtweek]

In regard to upgrading your trailing arms I don't think you'll see much benefit unless you're running a major amount of lift or do some fairly heavy crawling, but that's just my 2 cents. I currently use the OEM set so maybe someone that has something like Opt Offroad arms would like to chime in and say otherwise
I'm currently waiting for an opportunity to install my JBA UCAs and was curious about caster angle so this is all appreciated by me as well lol

Yeah I've never been too interested in getting fancy arms..don't see much need for me. I'm all about helping others too man so stay tuned and maybe we can figure this out. Otherwise I'm super happy with arms. Great quality, perfect fit, and fast service.

I recently did a full suspension and steering overhaul. Added a lift. Replaced damn near everything in the front end and I had a random vibration/wander at 55-65 mph. I rechecked everything, double checked the alignment. Couldn't figure out what I was missing.

Ended up having two wheels out of balance. Now its smooth as glass at all speeds, no wander. Probably had this issue before but my suspension was so clapped out I assumed it was part of that.

Food for thought.

Thank you, sometimes you need to think back to the simplest of things. I've got my stock wheels and tires I'm going to put those on and see if that changes anything.

Try rotating the tires to see what that does if you didnt already. You could try replacing the steering rack guide/spring with the newer kind if you have the roller type. Youre supposed to torque the guide on the bench with no fluid, so doing it on the vehicle is basically trial an error. I think you'd probably have a shimmy felt in the steering wheel if it was the rack guide. I have mine tightened up so the steering is exactly how I like it, pretty tight/heavy but easily returns. I don't like the normal loosey goosey Toyota steering.

Def. gonna try to rotate or put the stockers back on and see how that feels. I keep reading about this guide and I've never heard about it before. I'm going to look into this a little bit more.

If I'm being honest...

This thing is really starting to piss me off. More mad at myself than anything. Had a perfectly good riding, solid vehicle and I've thrown all this time and money at it and it rides like shit right now. Its crazy stiff in the front so I think I need to crank the coilovers back down (I only put 4 turns on each but it feels like a covered wagon). I am going to completely take off the rear driveshaft and grease the shit out of that and see if that helps.

Gotta get this right this is getting ridiculous. I still am waiting to hear back from the "tech" to see if there was more adjustment left where he could have put more caster in it. I asked them to put it above three and that didn't happen so we will see. My previous one drove so much better than this. The only other variable is the fact that these are the "aluma" coilovers vs their normal boss or ultimate ones. I think I like the others better, if I'm being honest.

Thanks for all the help everyone I'm banging my head against the wall.

 

[repo]

The other thing I guess you could try (I just did this the other day but haven't put it back together yet) is replacing the front diff needle bearings (driver side) with the East Coast Gear Supply 7.5 clamshell teflon bushing. When you lift the new CV angle puts strain on that needle bearings and the driver side CV gets a bit floppy and can cause a vibration. I would make sure the wheels are balanced first like someone else mentioned.

 

[Vansnxtweek]

I have been trying to read up on this some but in my first searches it looked like just a 5th gen thing. I will look a little more on it. I honestly would like to regear so I would do all that at the same time.

I did make some headway on the vibration. A little more time and a little more grease and it has prob. dropped by about 60%. Still there but its way better. I overanalyze everything but in my mind I wonder if the grease may have not been applied uniformly across all surfaces/in the slip joint and this in itself could've thrown the balance off some until it all slung out or made its way around. That's all I can come up with as of now.

My (steering wheel)slip joint has always been bad but the lift/heavier/bigger tires has exaggerated that a ton. I really think that is causing some of the wandering and sh*tty steering/handling. I called Toytec and they agreed the caster is best around 3.5 so I called the alignment place and they said they'd take a second look at it and try to get some more caster out of it. Think I'll try to fix the slip joint before then and I'm going to crank the coilovers back down 4 turns. The rear springs settled more than I expected and the front is stiff a a brick. (Which also could be causing some twitchy steering.)

Stay tuned...I'd really like to help some with this hassle in the future.

 

[photoleif]

sounds like you're on the way toward getting it sorted. fwiw i agree with [MENTION=549924]Devbot[/MENTION] concerning rear bushing upgrades. i did my rear upper and lower control arms the other day and noticed an immediate improvement in tracking -- it just wants to go straight down the road, and helps to re-center against a side wind. i wasn't expecting *rear* to be doing that (i thought, it'll improve ride) but hey, i'll take it. as for speed-specific shimmy, i get some of that after a rotation sometimes, and wonder if having them rebalanced would be the right move. concerning wander, my only wandering woes are not in my 4R but my '95 pickup, and that thing is all over the GD road sometimes with a 4+ " lift and BFG AT-KO tires. i've got all new steering and CVs and front bushings, and newish steering damper in that thing and it still wanders. i noticed that immediately upon changing to the AT-KO years ago. i also recently loosened the front suspension in it, and it wanders less now (i think). i wonder if your stagecoach mod might be working against you there.

 

[Vansnxtweek]

sounds like you're on the way toward getting it sorted. fwiw i agree with [MENTION=549924]Devbot[/MENTION] concerning rear bushing upgrades. i did my rear upper and lower control arms the other day and noticed an immediate improvement in tracking -- it just wants to go straight down the road, and helps to re-center against a side wind. i wasn't expecting *rear* to be doing that (i thought, it'll improve ride) but hey, i'll take it. as for speed-specific shimmy, i get some of that after a rotation sometimes, and wonder if having them rebalanced would be the right move. concerning wander, my only wandering woes are not in my 4R but my '95 pickup, and that thing is all over the GD road sometimes with a 4+ " lift and BFG AT-KO tires. i've got all new steering and CVs and front bushings, and newish steering damper in that thing and it still wanders. i noticed that immediately upon changing to the AT-KO years ago. i also recently loosened the front suspension in it, and it wanders less now (i think). i wonder if your stagecoach mod might be working against you there.

Hahah I need some clarification on "stagecoach" mod. Whatever that is i like the name lol!

I appreciate your input sounds like I really need to consider doing the rear arms. Did you just replace the bushings? Whiteline or what did you use?

I am glad you said "GD" when you said wandering because that's EXACTLY what it does to me....Effing piss me off..man I get irate lol. Nothing like spending all this time and money and it rides like junk.

Sucks that AT-KOs dont seem to perform well. I used to think of those as upper echelon of tires but time and time again they let me down. I have some on a Grand Cherokee (shhhhhh) and man they SUCK.