WTF is Ethanol??

[TRD04RUNNER]

I fill up today with 87 octane from a Pilot gas station I never got gas from B4 and after i got done putting $20 worth of gas which only gave me about 9gal. then i notice when i was putting the pump back their was a little white long strip of paper with tape over it under the 87 grade that said "contain 10% Ethanol" what is Ethanol? is it bad or good for your motor? this was the first time I ever seen this at the pump.

 

[cmj685]

Being from the "great" agriculture state of Minnesota (currently shut down due to a budget dispute at the state level) I can tell you a little...others with more technical info will perhaps chime in. Here the ethanol blend is made from such products as corn. If I have understood the politic machinations correctly, it is essentially a subsidy for farmers when the legislature requires ethanol in fuel (which they do here in some form or another, off and on), a way to increase uses and price of corn. I have always been leery of the stuff myself and any time I run across a cut rate price, I check it out first to see if it is ethanol. The irony is, that often here in Minnesota the ethanol fuel costs more than the regular! I don't trust it myself....

 

[JB.]

what is Ethanol?

It's grain alcohol. It contains only 2/3 the energy of gasoline. It's also one of the largest Corporate Welfare schemes ever.

<a href="http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-241.html" target="_blank">Article</a> <br />

From the article:

Ethanol, as far as it is used for gasoline, is a political concoction--a product that exists and is used solely because of the interference of politicians with the workings of the marketplace.

 

[<<<<]

It makes gas cheaper, but it's bad for your 10:1 compression engine. It wont damage anything in short term, but I wouldn't use it all the time.

 

[DaveS]

It increases the cost of gas because it actually absorbs water, therefore it has to be added just before final distribution and the petroleum mixed product itself then has to be carefully managed to minimize the amount of water that ends up in your tank. In Canada we seem to be seeing more and more of it (I think I read somewhere we are going to be forced to have it in all gas at some stage.) I try to avoid using it all the time and switch between gas brands at each fill up if at all possible.

Now biodiesel - that's a different story and one we might become all too familar with if hybrid technologies dont come to the rescue at some stage soon.

 

[Hank]

From posts in the past, others have said that ethanol actually makes the engine run a bit hotter, just FYI.

 

[cmj685]

The above linked article basically confirms my skepticism over the years as I have listened to the propaganda here in Minnesota about ethanol. Though I didn't know about the technical data, it was clear that the battles being fought were strictly about how much tax money could be gotten by the producers of ethanol, not how good ethanol was for anyone or anything. Another quote from the above article:
Ethanol has done poorly on its own largely because it is a relatively lousy fuel. An Agriculture Department report observed,

Each gallon of ethanol contains about two-thirds as much energy as does gasoline, resulting in reduced fuel economy. One would expect vehicles using gasohol to show about a 3.3 percent reduction in miles per gallon since ethanol constitutes 10 percent of the ethanol-gasoline blend. In a recent report on the performance of alcohol-gasoine blends, the DOE concluded that gasohol-fueled vehicles averaged 4.7 percent fewer miles per gallon than gasoline-fueled vehicles in automobile fleets.(35)

The comparatively feeble fuel value of ethanol is a large part of the reason why the fuel is so discounted from its cost of production.

 

[DaveS]

Interesting article - what I found disturbing was the fact that every barrel of ethanol supposedly takes almost a barrel of oil to produce.

 

[zeb]

running still

I am currently converting a 1982 VW rabbit to straight vege oil. I got the 2L diesel for the 1985 4Runner, just need a w56 diesel bell housing (starter on passenger side), anyone got one?

But my next project is to start making fuel alcohol and covert my gas vehicles to 100% alcohol including a 1995 V6 4Runner. One thing that has been overlooked in this topic is that I can make fuel alcohol in my backyard from a variety of sources. I have heard it can be made from grass, wood chips, even just sugar and yeast. And there is talk of new enzymes that create alcohol. I am not sure how much effort is needed to run the still, but if I do not commute then I should be able to make most of it.

The model-A car was a dual fuel car that also ran on 'shine (probably apple liquor). Back in the day there were only a few gas stations so when a model-A car got into the rural they had to burn alcohol. Henry Ford fought to make alcohol as our primary fuel source because we can MAKE it.

This may not be a solution for the masses, but I think that since I can make it myself I will be way better off and more self sufficient. Check with your local laws, here in Virginia stills are illegal so I would need a permit. Also I will experiment with using low grade inputs like weeds and woodchips, but this could be dangerous or deadly if someone drank it because it could make people blind..., so don't drink the fuel alcohol.

http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_motherearth/meCh1.html
http://www.homestead.org/AltEnergy/MakingAlcoholFuel.htm

 

[pickerdd]

Just curious about something... What percentage of ethanol in gasoline is harmful to the engines in our 4Runners? 10% ethanol in gas is pretty common around here.

 

[zeb]

Check with your vehicle specs or call the dealer.

I am planning 100% alcohol conversion but I have not done a gas engine to alcohol conversion yet. From what I have read and heard it is mostly changing the amount of fuel that gets into the combustion chamber. So I think changing the injectors and/or the computer chip could produce good results. Changing the timing maybe too. But all I have heard says nothing about internal engine changes. Though one of the links below says it may be hot for valves, others say the engine runs cool. Alcohol may destroy seals and soft gaskets but a upper end lube may fix that.
There are stock vehicles that are already rated for E85 which is 85% alcohol and 15% gas and they have been doing this a while so check your vehicle specs. You can see the Flex emblems on the newer cars.

just googled these:
http://www.milehidistilling.com/e85_conversion_kit_s/67.htm
http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/269605551/m/8731099071
This one has some conversion info http://greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=00286X


Has anyone completed a gas to 100% alcohol conversion?

 

[TheBlueWave]

Just curious about something... What percentage of ethanol in gasoline is harmful to the engines in our 4Runners? 10% ethanol in gas is pretty common around here.

The issue is not compression, as alcohol has a high octane rating. The issue is the materials in the fuel delivery and injection systems. Alcohol is corrosive compared to gasoline so the fuel lines and injector materials must be swapped for alcohol resistant ones. It does get poor fuel economy and can't be transported with the current infastructure so must be trucked, a further boon on its overall economy.
I live in MN, worked in SD and IA, and I can say with full confidence that its a scam. But at least the farmers are doing well. Some of the more successful corn farmers are sporting new boats and trucks, and a smaller handicap on the golf course. Good for them (hell, they do deserve a break after some hard times in the recent past), bad for everyone else, IMO.

 

[bigt2148]

10% ethanol is fine. I have been told that most cars can handle up to 20%. You should never go over 20%

 

[97hb]

I have converted my civic to run e85. Bunch of misleading info in here. It burns about 200 degrees cooler than gas. To convert, I needed bigger injectors, bigger fuel pump, and fuel managment to control everything. Made good power off some corn I have the injectors and pump for the runner to convert, but management is expensive. I will post when the runner is converted.

 

[zeb]

Great, thanks for the info 97hb. Glad to hear you are converting the 4Runner to E85.

I write computer software and a friend makes electronics at home. Is there a way to get a compiler or whatever they use to program the vehicle computer? Also, maybe I could make an adapter to connect to the computer to reprogram it.

Is there a way to rig a relatively low cost programmer for the vehicle computer so the fuel rate can be adjusted?

 

[97hb]

Yeah, I had to convert the car over to obd1 and reflash the ecu for the new fuel maps. Also had it on a dyno with wideband to make sure the fuel was right. So far, I am looking at the Motec system for the 4runner. I can run the stock ecu for everything and the motec for just the fuel tables. It cost much money though.