Transmission questions

Door Ding said:

If I manually downshift under power, I get the same sort of weird harsh shifts

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I think that would be normal. An automatic transmission is not designed to be downshifted under power.

Start simple. Grease the driveshaft. Multiple times if you must. Mine took over 30 pumps to top off.

If the issue persists after the grease, go to the next simplest thing... check the AT transmission fluid level. If it is overfilled drain some to the correct level. If it is underfilled top it off to the correct level. Use the writeup on this forum to make sure you do it correctly.

If the issue is still there, do a complete transmission fluid exchange as per the writeup posted on this forum/tacomaworld.

If the issue continues to be there after those three steps. You may want to have it checked out at a dealership or a toyota certified shop.


I have done transmission fluid exchanges on two 4runners with over 130k miles on them at the time of the exchange. One was definitely the first service for the transmission... On my 04, I had noticed a slight hesitation to shift from 2nd to 3rd. Transmission fluid was brownish red/ and probably had never been serviced. I did the fluid exchange at 136k miles or around there and it did not change much. I decided to just drive it until it got worse. It never got worse. My father in law is still driving that 4runner with over 200k miles on it now...


Don't be determined to fix a problem. It might just be ok to drive it as is until something else happens or it throws a code.

Thanks!


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So I just attempted to do a transfluid check and when the at temp light came on i removed the inspection plug and a LOT of fluid came out. I quickly plugged it back up with the hex screw, but I couldnt believe how much came out. Id guess i lost a 1/4 of quart maybe?

It was a solid stream.

Is there a period of time you're supposed to wait before checking it? is it possible that the transmission temp sensor is out of adjustment somehow? Im confused. Of coursed I didn't have a clean pan to drain it into so I have no way of determining how much fluid I lost

Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

A750 case issues? Need advice for suspected tranny issues.

New member. Want to post this as new thread but haven’t hit my 15. This is one of the closer threads though so trying here and a few others - sorry for reposting same question but new member sticky kind of made it seem like that’s okay? Hopefully not spamming / being a bad member here just desperate for advice. Happy to delete if this is bad etiquette!

INTRO

New member first post looking for advice on what I suspect is a transmission problem with my A750F tranny on my 2008 T4R Sport 4wd 4.0 v6 with 196000 miles, and maybe more importantly….on how best to get advice from this forum given the 15 post requirement and being new here.

I’ve already read through every A750F thread I could find, although this is a big forum so it’s very possible I missed something, probably many things given that…

This is my first car in 15 years and I am not a “car guy” so I have been trying my best to get up to speed quickly by reading articles and watching videos online but obviously there is still a TON I don’t know and things I don’t even know I don’t know, so apologies upfront for any “stupid” questions or posts - I’m trying my best to educate myself and learn from the very knowledgeable, friendly, and helpful people on this forum. My goal is to be humble, grateful, and open minded. Very appreciative upfront for anyone who takes the time to read or respond to my posts!

BACKGROUND

I just purchased a used 2008 T4R Sport v6 that now has 196,000 for $11,300 all in with taxes and fees. It came with a 15 day 500 mile warranty. After about 45 days and 2,500 miles (drove it from Chicago, where purchased, to Colorado) I’m having what I suspect are transmission issues so I’m outside the warranty. I don’t have a strong handle on previous owners driving habits / maintenance record. It passed the dealers 21 point inspection but I fear I was sold a lemon. I now realize I shouldn’t have trusted the dealer and had a mechanic inspect it. Also I should have been tipped off by the weak warranty. I also should have it looked at as soon I started having issue. Yes yes I know I know. But that’s spilt milk, I’m stuck with it now so please don’t flame me on what I now know were stupid decisions not doing my due diligence and taking action right away. I’m a noob learning the hard way.

ISSUES

At first the car drove great and then around 2,000 or so miles from purchase it had a little trouble getting into gear, but once it was there it drove fine. Accelerating slowly seemed to help ease gear shifts at this point.

Then, it started having issues upon starting. Started fine but I had trouble getting it into gear at all. It was like I was in neutral even though I was in Drive revving without going anywhere. I had to rev it up to 3k rpm to get it moving / into gear which it kind of slid into but then it was fine. This seemed to be exacerbated by cold temps. The warmer the car, the easier to get it moving.

Soon after that it started having additional issues at speed on highway where the tachometer would shoot up by 3k rpm (from 2k up to 5k rpm’s) as if the car was in neutral before dropping and clunking into gear. I think this is called gear slipping. Didn’t happen all the time and again, seemed to work better when the car was warmed up on the road for a bit but still occasional clunky shift before warming up and sometimes when starting from a stoplight.

Now I’m at the point where the car will not get into gear at all. When I press on the accelerator, it’s as if I’m in neutral - engine revs but doesn’t go into gear / move forward at all no matter how high I rev it. I’ve tried all combinations of moving the shifter between L, 2, 3, 4 and D; 2H, 4H, 4L; CDL diff lock; warm and cold engine. Nothing. Only gear that works is reverse and even for that I have to rev it up to 3k before it starts moving backwards. In D, if I really punch it, at around 5k rpm's I get a slight rumble from the center of the car as if something is going to happen…or explode…but then nothing. Car is on the side of the road now. Very sad.

Also, the dash is a Christmas tree. MIL/check engine light solid; MAINT light solid; Slip indicator / TRAC light solid (not affected by pressing the TRAC button); VSC light flashing (not affected by pressing VSC button).

UPDATE: DTC Codes

Red X light (Indicates there is a problem in one or more of the vehicle's systems. The red LED is also used to show that DTC(s) are present. DTCs are shown on the Code Reader’s LCD display. In this case, the Malfunction Indicator (“Check Engine”) lamp on the vehicle's instrument panel will light steady on.)

Solid Monitor Icons (When a Monitor icon is solid, it indicates that the associated Monitor has completed its diagnostic testing)
M - Misfire Monitor
F - Fuel System Monitor
CC - Comprehensive Component Monitor (CCM)
O - Oxygen Sensor Monitor
OH - Oxygen Sensor Heater Monitor

Flashing Monitor Icons (indicates that the vehicle supports the associated Monitor, but the Monitor has not yet run its diagnostic testing)
C - Catalyst Monitor
EV - EVAP System Monitor

MIL "Freeze Frame"
P2714 - Pressure Control Solenoid D Performance Or Stuck Off

MIL alone (no additional text on display such as Pending, Freeze Frame, Permanent or ABS)
P0441 - Evaporative Emission Control System Incorrect Purge Flow
P0455 - Evaporative Emission Control System Leak Detected (no purge flow or large leak)
P0771 - Shift Solenoid E Performance / Stuck Off
P2757 - Torque Converter Clutch Pressure Control Solenoid Control Circuit Performance/Stuck Off

MIL "Pending"
P0441 - Evaporative Emission Control System Incorrect Purge Flow
P0455 - Evap System Large Leak Detected
P0771 - Shift Solenoid E Performance / Stuck Off
P0776 - Pressure Control Solenoid B Perf/Off
P0781 - 1-2 Shift Malfunction
P0894 - Transmission Component Slipping
P2714 - Pressure Control Solenoid D Perf/Off
P2757 - Torque Converter Clutch Pressure Control Solenoid Control Circuit Performance/Stuck Off

ABS
C1201 - VEHICLE STABILITY CONTROL (VSC) CANCELLED DUE TO ENGINE CONTROL MODULE FAILURE.


The dealer I bought the car from won’t help and they’re 1,200 miles away in Chicago anyway so no chance of me towing it there.

CURRENT THOUGHTS AND PLAN

I will need to get the car towed and am trying to avoid having to tow it twice, so I’m trying to figure out the right place to take it in my new home of Basalt, CO where I have no experience with the mechanics and only know a handful of people to get recommendations from.

I’ve called around and basically everyone is telling me I am going to need a rebuilt/reman transmission. I’m holding out hope that it’s something smaller, like rusted electrical / solenoids, gas cap (which I don’t think it is), ATF exchange (as I’m doubting the tranny fluid was ever drained and filled), etc. but I’m trying to make a decision about where to take it based on the worst case scenario - a dead tranny - so that I don’t have to tow it all over town and pay multiple people to drop the pan/remove the tranny to inspect it. I rather go to the right place first that can do the nuclear option if needed as well as any smaller repairs if that’s all it takes to get it moving again without getting “sold” a rebuild / reman if I don’t really need one.

From this Forum, internet research, and conversations with friends - while opinions vary - it seems I’m best off NOT going to the dealer…that they will just try to sell me a reman at top dollar straight away. I’ve also heard don’t go to a general mechanic as, if it is a transmission issue, they will likely outsource it to a tranny specialist or send me to one. So, I’m thinking I'll take it to a transmission specialist right off…which here in rural CO with a car that won’t drive forward, leaves me with only 2 options within AAA 50mile towing distance.

Both places seem to have good reputations - one is independent, has been here forever, and seems to be “the” place whereas the other is a Mister Transmission franchise but by all accounts also has a stellar reputation. But this is where things get interesting…

The independent shop says they will NOT open the transmission and instead, after diagnosing/determining the issue is inside/with the tranny and not something else, they would order a reman A750F. Why? Because they have seen too many A750 rebuilds / point repairs over the years come back after 30-50k miles with “case problems” and that there is no way to tell if the tranny is going to have a case issue or not - that it’s a crap shoot and given their experience, it's a gamble not worth taking. They want to charge me $4,700 total - parts and labor - for the reman tranny. Eek! That’s almost half the cost of the car that has nearly 200k miles on it already. Yowzers! (PS - they charge $110/hr labor)

Now, I’ve searched extensively to see if anyone else has had case problems with the A750F/E after a rebuild and I’ve found nothing, zero, zip! So that has me wondering, is this reputable shop not actually that reputable? As in, are they just trying to sell me the most expensive option OR do they not know how to rebuild/repair an A750 correctly such that when they have done it in the past, they’ve had them come back with case issues 30k-50k miles later?

Thoughts?

The other shop - Mister Transmission - said they will open up my tranny and if it can be repaired / rebuilt for less than a reman, that’s what they’ll do, and if not, they’ll put a reman in there. They charge $1,200 flat fee on labor but haven’t gotten back to me with part prices. Depending on prices, I’m leaning towards going with them but if “case problems” on A750 rebuilds really is a known issue, then maybe IÂ’m better off just going to whichever will charge me the least for a reman.

Both have 12k/12month warranty but Mister Transmission ups it to 100k/3year on a reman parts and labor included.

Thoughts?

Also - what do you think about other options like buying a used tranny and having a general mechanic install it?

QUESTIONS SUMMARY - TLDR
Has anyone ever heard of A750Â’s having “case” problems or any other type of issues after a rebuild? Is this a known “thing”?
In general, what do you recommend for a nearly 200k mile 2008 Sport…a used tranny, spot repair (if possible), rebuild, or reman A750 transmission? Also, any sense on reasonable price ranges for these options? It seems like there’s lots of disagreement on this topic.
Overall, am I better off trying to sell the broken car “as is” and putting whatever money I can get for it along with my savings from NOT fixing it into a different car? The car has other issues - muffler is falling off, rear windshield wiper doesn’t work, has rust from Chicago winters, rear seat release/fold down button is missing, and center console (Temp, audio system) lights burnt out. Plus, I don’t have any personal attachment to it as it’s new to me.
Any other advice / things I’m not thinking about / should consider? For example, is it worth exchanging the ATF to see if that fixes it (seems like a lot of people advise against this and it’s only delaying the inevitable)?

Again, I’m not mechanical, so except for very simple stuff where I can follow detailed instructions, I’m not confident / able to do much on my own, sadly.

THANK YOU SO MUCH IN ADVANCE!!! Really appreciate your advice and please let me know if there is more info I can include to help!

I think your vehicle has all of the symptoms of being low on quality transmission fluid. Before I would let anyone pull the tranny and dismantle or replace it, I would have them check the fluid level and quality of the fluid. Chances are it's low and the fluid that's left is as black as india ink. Those transmissions are sold as "lifetime sealed", but what "lifetime" really means is about 100,000 miles of light duty service. After that the fluid is shot and needs to be replaced, sooner if the previous owner was towing, doing a lot of stop-and-go city driving, operating in hot climates, or other "severe" service.

Since you are not mechanically inclined, I would suggest you have a shop drop the pan, drain all of the fluid from the tranny AND the torque converter, change whatever filter is in there, and refill with fresh WS4 Toyota fluid. Also check for leaks. The tranny was working "OK" 2500 miles ago - it's unlikely it destroyed itself in that time. A fresh infusion of clean fluid may well restore it to working order. Insist on that as the first step when you take it to the shop. Tell them that's what you want done and you will take responsibility for the results. It shouldn't cost more than a couple of hundred bucks, and may be all you need to do for the short term. Note: DO NOT have them do a power flush - just a drain and fill.

As far as the "Christmas tree" of lights, that's standard Toyota SOP. Once the system detects any fault, the MIL is lit and the Traction control/VSC is disabled because Toyota is too lazy to write TRAC/VSC code that can work around an engine diagnostic failure. So you get all of these lights because one thing might be wrong. Get a code reader and post the failure code for us.

Work on the tranny problem first, though. Good luck!

RonJR said:

I think your vehicle has all of the symptoms of being low on quality transmission fluid. Before I would let anyone pull the tranny and dismantle or replace it, I would have them check the fluid level and quality of the fluid. Chances are it's low and the fluid that's left is as black as india ink. Those transmissions are sold as "lifetime sealed", but what "lifetime" really means is about 100,000 miles of light duty service. After that the fluid is shot and needs to be replaced, sooner if the previous owner was towing, doing a lot of stop-and-go city driving, operating in hot climates, or other "severe" service.

Since you are not mechanically inclined, I would suggest you have a shop drop the pan, drain all of the fluid from the tranny AND the torque converter, change whatever filter is in there, and refill with fresh WS4 Toyota fluid. Also check for leaks. The tranny was working "OK" 2500 miles ago - it's unlikely it destroyed itself in that time. A fresh infusion of clean fluid may well restore it to working order. Insist on that as the first step when you take it to the shop. Tell them that's what you want done and you will take responsibility for the results. It shouldn't cost more than a couple of hundred bucks, and may be all you need to do for the short term. Note: DO NOT have them do a power flush - just a drain and fill.

As far as the "Christmas tree" of lights, that's standard Toyota SOP. Once the system detects any fault, the MIL is lit and the Traction control/VSC is disabled because Toyota is too lazy to write TRAC/VSC code that can work around an engine diagnostic failure. So you get all of these lights because one thing might be wrong. Get a code reader and post the failure code for us.

Work on the tranny problem first, though. Good luck!

Click to expand...

Thanks RonJR - super helpful!!

If I'm understanding all the threads I’ve read on this forum - which I don't think I really do - it seems like some people advise against doing a full fluid exchange on higher mileage transmissions because the fluid contains detergents that can release caked on grime baked into the tranny creating more issues down the line. Instead, some suggest doing an incremental drain and fill where, if memory serves, you drain and replace something like 2-3 quarts at a time driving the car anywhere from a week to 500 miles in between drain and fills so that over time you slowly replace the old fluid via dilution - I believe the goal is to gradually capture and remove the nasty grime as opposed to releasing it all into the tranny at once with a full exchange? Downside is it takes more fluid and time.

Very possible though that I'm mixed up from reading way too many of these threads where I don't understand the nuances of the different terminologies and approaches due to being a total noob...so basically wondering if I'm even understanding this forum "debate" correctly and if so, what approach is best for my particular situation - replace ALL the old ATF at once or do it slowly over time via dilution?

Thanks again - much appreciated!!

Some threads that reference this that I'm trying to understand:

Tranny Fluid Drain and Fill - Toyota 4Runner Forum - Largest 4Runner Forum
Transmission flush or drain?
ATF Exchange (using the cooling line)
Original tranny fluid at 205k miles: would you change it?
How many guys are still on original transmission fluid? Come on in!
Should I Change My Transmission Fluid?

[MENTION=696011]DrJabberwocky[/MENTION], yes, there's a debate over changing fluid, what "lifetime" means, so on and so forth. FWIW, my opinion as a 7+ year owner of a 2007 Sport V6 who has had two full fluid exchanges, the first by a dealer at 115K and the second a DIY at 220K using the method described in the "cooling line" thread you listed, is to follow RonJr's suggestion of a full exchange to see if it addresses your troubles. I say that based on my experience and the fact that where you are with your transmission renders the discussion over the potential effects of fluid changes moot - it can't get any worse than needing a new transmission, right?

If the fluid exchange works, you might then consider two courses of action: 1) leave well enough alone and move on to fixing other issues, or 2) pick a mileage number that feels right to you - could be 5K, 20K, whatever - and have a second full exchange. I'm no transmission expert but it seems to me that anything possibly stirred up by the first exchange will go out with the fluid during the second one. Either way, you've saved many thousands of dollars.

Also, for the fluid exchange if you DIY it and any other work you do on your truck, check YouTube as there are many great videos on 4th Gen repairs and maintenance.

I feel bad for you. That situation is rough. Hope it turns out for the best.

DrJabberwocky said:

Thanks RonJR - super helpful!!

If I'm understanding all the threads I’ve read on this forum - which I don't think I really do - it seems like some people advise against doing a full fluid exchange on higher mileage transmissions because the fluid contains detergents that can release caked on grime baked into the tranny creating more issues down the line. Instead, some suggest doing an incremental drain and fill where, if memory serves, you drain and replace something like 2-3 quarts at a time driving the car anywhere from a week to 500 miles in between drain and fills so that over time you slowly replace the old fluid via dilution - I believe the goal is to gradually capture and remove the nasty grime as opposed to releasing it all into the tranny at once with a full exchange? Downside is it takes more fluid and time.

Very possible though that I'm mixed up from reading way too many of these threads where I don't understand the nuances of the different terminologies and approaches due to being a total noob...so basically wondering if I'm even understanding this forum "debate" correctly and if so, what approach is best for my particular situation - replace ALL the old ATF at once or do it slowly over time via dilution?

Thanks again - much appreciated!!

Some threads that reference this that I'm trying to understand:

Tranny Fluid Drain and Fill - Toyota 4Runner Forum - Largest 4Runner Forum
Transmission flush or drain?
ATF Exchange (using the cooling line)
Original tranny fluid at 205k miles: would you change it?
How many guys are still on original transmission fluid? Come on in!
Should I Change My Transmission Fluid?

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If you have any questions on the quality/status of any of your oils, get a sample kit from Blackstone Labs and send it in for analysis and they can make a recommendation based on the health of the fluid by analyzing if the detergents are still present, if there are high numbers of insoluble materials in the fluid, etc..

Hindsight 20/20, the time to address that would've been the first moment it demonstrated an abnormality, of course. The most likely reason transmission flushes get a bad rep is because people wait until they're a week before the situation you're in to do anything with their fluid, then blame the fluid exchange when they end up in this situation anyway. If you bring it to a shop, many aren't set up to do a full flush and will just do a drain and fill and call it an exchange or even a flush, most people won't know the difference. You might just be low on fluid, but just as likely that you have something significantly more expensive going on. Personally I'd take the few hundred dollar gamble (or under $100 if you DIY) and try the fluid exchange first, not just a drain and fill, but if you're still on original fluid at 200k it may well be too late for any fluid exchange method to help. Won't know unless you try.

I agree with pretty much everything that's been said. The reason I hold out some hope for the drain/refill is that, unlike an engine which will happily run with a dry oil sump until complete destruction occurs, an automatic transmission generally stops functioning long before the fluid gets low enough to actually cause damage. The symptoms in this case, where the tranny gradually slips more and more and then stops shifting into gear entirely are consistent with a decreasing fluid level. (In my former-life experience with my old '65 Chevy Powerglide, at 1 qt low the transmission would start slipping noticeably, and at two quarts low it wouldn't go anymore.)

If that is indeed the case, the bigger question is, where did the fluid go over that last 2500 miles or so? It either leaked out on the ground or found a path into the coolant. I believe the V6 has a transmission cooler integrated into the radiator, which can allow for such cross contamination. It would be a good idea to check the level and integrity of the coolant in the radiator. Also look at the underneath of the vehicle for excess fluid coating everything.

If it were me, I would FIRST make sure the fluid level is correct, if not add fluid until it is correct, if that makes it shift the way it should I would then do the "Fluid Exchange", the reason I would do it this way is so I only spend a little bit of money to see if getting the fluid level correct "fixes" the shifting issue, and then spend more money to get all fresh fluid in the transmission, better to spend $20 to $30 first than to spend $100+ on fluid plus labor if you don't do it yourself and find out the transmission is shot!

Thank you all so much for your thoughtful and helpful responses! Very much appreciated! Sounds like the way to go is to check fluid level, if low, top it up and if that gets it moving then do a full fluid exchange (not power flush), drive for a while, and then do another full fluid exchange.

PS - I borrowed a code reader and updated my original post with the DTC codes:

DrJabberwocky said:

UPDATE: DTC Codes

Red X light (Indicates there is a problem in one or more of the vehicle's systems. The red LED is also used to show that DTC(s) are present. DTCs are shown on the Code Reader’s LCD display. In this case, the Malfunction Indicator (“Check Engine”) lamp on the vehicle's instrument panel will light steady on.)

Solid Monitor Icons (When a Monitor icon is solid, it indicates that the associated Monitor has completed its diagnostic testing)
M - Misfire Monitor
F - Fuel System Monitor
CC - Comprehensive Component Monitor (CCM)
O - Oxygen Sensor Monitor
OH - Oxygen Sensor Heater Monitor

Flashing Monitor Icons (indicates that the vehicle supports the associated Monitor, but the Monitor has not yet run its diagnostic testing)
C - Catalyst Monitor
EV - EVAP System Monitor

MIL "Freeze Frame"
P2714 - Pressure Control Solenoid D Performance Or Stuck Off

MIL alone (no additional text on display such as Pending, Freeze Frame, Permanent or ABS)
P0441 - Evaporative Emission Control System Incorrect Purge Flow
P0455 - Evaporative Emission Control System Leak Detected (no purge flow or large leak)
P0771 - Shift Solenoid E Performance / Stuck Off
P2757 - Torque Converter Clutch Pressure Control Solenoid Control Circuit Performance/Stuck Off

MIL "Pending"
P0441 - Evaporative Emission Control System Incorrect Purge Flow
P0455 - Evap System Large Leak Detected
P0771 - Shift Solenoid E Performance / Stuck Off
P0776 - Pressure Control Solenoid B Perf/Off
P0781 - 1-2 Shift Malfunction
P0894 - Transmission Component Slipping
P2714 - Pressure Control Solenoid D Perf/Off
P2757 - Torque Converter Clutch Pressure Control Solenoid Control Circuit Performance/Stuck Off

ABS
C1201 - VEHICLE STABILITY CONTROL (VSC) CANCELLED DUE TO ENGINE CONTROL MODULE FAILURE.

Click to expand...

Thanks again for all your help!!!

Looks like you have two DTC issues. The P04xx codes indicate problems in the evap emissions purge system and are likely not critical right now. May be just a loose gas cap. Save those for later. The others are all transmission related and hopefully due to fluid problems. So, definitely proceed with getting the fluid squared away and go from there.