reliability impact of VVT-I in 05' v8 vs. current v8

While i've tried to read/searching as many threads as possible regarding choosing v6 or v6, 04 or 05, etc...

my question is this:

This will be my first car and it has to last me, in the range of, forever. Therefore, for you gear heads, i know VVT-I has been around for awhile and what not, but in terms of the new 05' V8 that's coming out, does adding VVT-I make the v8 engine significantly more susceptible to problems? Obviously no one knows exactly since no one has one yet, but would you think adding VVT-I and whatever else they added for the 05's would theoretically be more "costly" in the future than the present v8 engine?

also, if memory serves me right, the new v8 in the 4runner will not be shared with any other upcoming or present toyota vehicle, as opposed to the 04 V8's that are in the 04' tundra and 04' sequoias?

I plan to purchase a sport edition 4x4, just dont know yet what year and engine size. I don't mind waiting til 05, though the incentives/prices for 04's now are attractive. Also i probably won't be towing anything ever, nonetheless, i dont mind shelling out the extra money to have the jiggle room as well as the higher resale value, tho the extra resale value is probably just equal the the money i pay extra for it in the begining.

also... so special ordering a car "shouldn't" cost extra right? how does ordering a car even work? They just say, "hey next month give us a car that has blah blah blah" instead of our previous order of blah blah blah. So it's no extra cost to them at all right? Maybe just a little more paperwork? And i should get the same deal on a stock-on-the-lot car as a special ordered car?

I just want one with no sunroof (after hearing about all the problems and the fact that i probably wouldnt' use it), side bags (heard this is impossible to get anyways), and homelink and that a/c port. and maybe the alarm and rearview mirror

Nonetheless, as far i as know, maybe you can correct me, is that only the homelink (from partznet.com) can be bought and added on later easily, whereas the others should be installed on build.

thanks in advance.

jason lee

Toyota's are built to last. The added benefit of the 4runners still being built in Japan should build your confidence that it'll last a minimum of 250k miles.

Not sure if the vvti engines will be used in the tundra/sequoia/lc but that's nothing you should be worried about.

if you're waiting for the v8 vvti version for 05 expect these to show up in January 05 (tentative date).

Personally I'd say just get the 05 v8 since the upped HP will be an added bonus

Btw, if you want to build your 4runner, that is possible (it can be done - not all dealerships welcome this but there are dealerships that do) find the right one and you're in heaven. Might as well buy what you want and not settle for what the mfg's make for the masses.

Good luck

jasonlee said:

my question is this:

This will be my first car and it has to last me, in the range of, forever. Therefore, for you gear heads, i know VVT-I has been around for awhile and what not, but in terms of the new 05' V8 that's coming out, does adding VVT-I make the v8 engine significantly more susceptible to problems? Obviously no one knows exactly since no one has one yet, but would you think adding VVT-I and whatever else they added for the 05's would theoretically be more "costly" in the future than the present v8 engine?

also, if memory serves me right, the new v8 in the 4runner will not be shared with any other upcoming or present toyota vehicle, as opposed to the 04 V8's that are in the 04' tundra and 04' sequoias?

jason lee

Click to expand...

First it is my understanding that the VVT-i will be on the 4.7 V8 across the board, including Tundra and Lexus GX 470.

For reliability I would have 3 concerns:

1.) New items tend to have problems. Consumer Reports says the V6 4Runner is "much worse than average" in reliability" and the V8 4Runner as "much better than average in reliability". I know the V6 had a fuel related problem and hopefully the V6's will get better marks.

2.) More horse power in a engine and better reliability are at odds with each other. If you lower the power, you tend to have better reliability.

3.) More moving parts and more complication does not help reliability.

Having said that, there should be no problem for the first 10 years, it will be the next 10 years that would be the concern. Overall, I don't think the VVT-i will be the big factor it making the vehicle last. If you think of all the extra complication we put on cars, power windows, anti-lock brakes, hill assist and on and on.... :awais:

The concern with a 14 year old Lexus 400 is not that it is falling apart, it is the cost of fixing or repairing the complicated systems that fail, after awhile the cost is prohibited. Just one system, anti-lock brakes, for instance can be thousands to repair.

By the way, if you keep the car forever, (I kept the 80 Honda for 19 years and a 88 Acura for 16 years), the difference between a 04 and a 05 will only be a few bucks, how well you keep it up over 16 to 19 years will be the deciding factor not the VVT-i.

very good points..a couple more questions

1. if they're due out in dealerships by jan, that means i can order one now and have it come in in jan right? or do i have to wait til they produce their first batch for all the dealers and then i get my peice of the pie.

2. i'm curious as to why the 05 4runner engine is different than the 05 sequoia and 05 tundra. Does I-Force even mean anything? I'd be much more comfortable is all these had the same engine my problem would be ALOT of peoples problems

3. are dealers more willing to give me a better deal if i special order a car or if i buy one off the lot? i dont mind paying extra to get the car i want, but how much more on average does it usually take?

thanks

jasonlee said:

3. are dealers more willing to give me a better deal if i special order a car or if i buy one off the lot? i dont mind paying extra to get the car i want, but how much more on average does it usually take?

thanks

Click to expand...

no, dealers want to move what they have on the lot as fast at they can, they hate special orders. but they'd rather do a special order than lose a sale. what i do is go in with a the list of exactly what i want and ask to speak to the sales manager. i ask the sales manager for the absolute best price he can give me and then i leave and go to the next dealership, and so on. this way i don't have to haggle, i know i'm getting the best price. i give the lowest couple of bids a second chance to come down more. and dealing with the sales manager means that the dealer doesn't have to pay a salesman comission, so you can get a better deal too. i've done this a number of times (for friends and family, i've only ever bought myself one new car ever) and it works really well. it's a great way to go about it if you know exactly what you want.

The '05 Tundra and Sequoia will also use the VVTi V8, just like the '05 4runners.

There is a rumor that the '05 TLC/LX470 will have the VVTi V8 also...but you gotta wait till Jan '05 production.

According to this Toyota press release, Tundra and Sequoia will have the new VVTi V8 engine:

Toyota Motor Sales (TMS), U.S.A., Inc., announced manufacturer's suggested retail prices (MSRP) today for the 2005 Tundra full-size pickup truck, Sequoia full-size sport utility vehicle (SUV) and Land Cruiser full-size SUV. All three vehicles will begin arriving at dealerships nationwide this week.

Toyota for 2005 has raised the level of power and performance of the Tundra with the addition of a powerful new 4.0-liter V6 engine, and significantly more horsepower in its 4.7-liter V8 engine.

The new 4.0-liter dual overhead cam (DOHC) V6 comes with variable valve timing with intelligence (VVT-i) to produce 245 horsepower and 282 lb-ft. of torque, compared to 190 horsepower and 220 lb-ft. of torque for the previous 3.4-liter V6 - nearly 30 percent increases.

The i-Force DOHC V8 also gains VVT-i to boost horsepower from 240 to 282. Torque has increased by 10 lb.-ft., to 325 lb.-ft. at 3,400 rpm. Tundra V8 models also gain a new standard five-speed automatic transmission.

In Tundra V6 models, a new six-speed manual transmission replaces the five-speed manual, and the five-speed automatic is available as an option.

Value is further enhanced with an array of additional standard equipment on the SR5 grade including power windows, door locks, and mirrors, dual vanity mirrors, a lighting package, rear sliding window with privacy glass, cruise control (V6 only), and remote keyless entry. The popular Tundra Double Cab now includes a standard tow package. A tire pressure monitoring system is standard on Tundra all models.

With the powertrain improvements and added standard equipment the base MSRP for Tundra 4x2 models range from $15,955 for the Regular Cab V6 with a six-speed manual transmission to $29,745 for the Double Cab Limited V8 with a five-speed automatic. The pricing reflects a total MSRP average increase of $165, or 0.7 percent.

The base MSRP on 4x4 models ranges from $21,760 for the Regular Cab V8 with a five-speed automatic transmission, to $33,075 for the Double Cab Limited V8 with a five-speed automatic, reflecting an average increase of $238, or 0.8 percent.

Total Tundra (4x2 and 4x4 combined) prices increase an average $195, or 0.7 percent.

Sequoia improves its value with a freshened look for 2005 complete with a full color-keyed exterior, a new front fascia and grille, standard overfenders and redesigned taillamps with clear-lens covers. An in-glass antenna replaces the exterior mast antenna.

Sequoia is powered by the 4.7-liter i-Force V8 engine with VVT-i and features an electronic throttle control system with intelligence (ETCS-i). The improved powertrain increases its output from 240 horsepower to 282. Like the Tundra, Sequoia also receives a new five-speed automatic transmission, providing smoother performance and more flexibility.

The base MSRP for the Sequoia ranges from $32,470 for two-wheel-drive SR5 model to $44,960 for the four-wheel-drive Limited, reflecting an average increase of $776, or 2.1 percent.

The Land Cruiser carries over largely unchanged. For 2005, 18-inch alloy wheels are now standard equipment.

The base MSRP for the Land Cruiser is $55,025. The new base price reflects an increase of $300, or 0.5 percent.

I think the Tundra with the new 4.0 V6 would be nice. I looked at a Tundra before, but I thought the old 3.4 V6 was just too little and the V8 was a bit too much. I predict they will sell a lot of the new V6's, especially if they keep the price down.

The clincher for me when I bought my V8 4Runner was the iForce 4.7 engine. When I heard the 4Rr had that engine, I bought it without even a test drive. Why? Cause that engine's been around for years and takes a ton of abuse and keeps on ticking. Hey, if it's good enough for Africa, Afghanistan and Mongolia, hell, it's good enough for Bloor Street and the occasional foray to ski country. I love old school, proven powerplants.

My other cars are an e30 BMW with the 2.5 litre M20 straight six and a 1988 Porsche 911 with 3.2 flat six. The BMW 3-series still uses the same basic block that was introduced in 1983. And the air-cooled Porsche flat six lived from 1966 to 1989.

This is why I will suffer no envy when the VVTi V8's come out.

And the air-cooled Porsche flat six lived from 1966 to 1989.

Click to expand...

Umm, that's thru 1998. And the air-cooled motors are among the most durable on the planet. My '88 now has over 25K track miles and still runs like new.

I stand corrected.

The engine is truly bulletproof and a joy to work on.

if the 4runner and sequoia and tundra will all share the same engine, anybody know why the 4runner is getting 12 less hp. I could really care less if it had 12 less, but i'm all about uniformity. Unless obviously, having this 12 less hp makes a 4runner "better" than the sequoia and tundra.

I've searched the board about it, but didn't really find anyone who came up with a good hypothesis.. just found this thread:

http://www.toyota-4runner.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5144


thanks

weight
emissions
exhaust design

simple question maybe you can answer:

so would you guess that the differences between the 05 sequoia v8 and 05 4runner v8 aren't fundamental/phyiscal changes, but just changes in the on board computer?

thanks again

the exhaust is different (size etc etc) thus the ecu has to be programmed accordingly.

also factor in that the v8 4runners are full time 4x4 and not part time like the tundra/sequoia too. (but i doubt that'll make a diff) but thought i'd throw that out there since hp loss is more significant on a full time system vs a part time system.

VVT-i shouldn't make any difference at all in the reliability unless there's a flaw in the actual workmanship or metal. But it's not one of those systems that has a particular 'life cycle'.

I'll put it to you this way... I've never heard of a car breaking down because of something related to VVT/VVT-i wearing out. And variable valve timing technologies have been out for quite a bit longer than you may think. Try upwards of 20 years... even though it didn't really become 'common' for another 10 years after that.

Good Times said:

weight
emissions
exhaust design

Click to expand...

Weight of the vehicle doesn't affect power output. Emissions standards shouldn't really be any different from vehicle to vehicle with the same motor unless the weight of the vehicle causes the motor to run at a higher average throttle input thus causing more emissions controls, but if that were the case then it still makes no sense since the 4Runner is not the heaviest of the bunch to receive the new motor.

Exhaust design makes a difference... but that much of a difference?

What about the GX470? Are they making more power?

There has to be something else in the equation here. Maybe something to do with marketing? I'm very curious.

The reason they put out less HP is the engine bay is too small for the larger exhaust system that the Tundra/Sequoia comes with. I am sure we will see after market systems to get that HP back. I'm happy with the V8 in my 2004. I would also be happy with the new VVTi. If you don't need one today get the 2005, it is a year newer vehicle. Contact the internet sales group at the local Toyota dealerships and get pricing from two or three for an ordered 2005 with the equip you want. Let them all know you are getting 3 different bids and your going to order from the low bidder. You can do all of this without ever going into the dealership and talking with a salesman. When you pick the winner you will go in and meet with the internet sales manager and sigh the paper work. You will get the best price doing this. If you want to kick tires and drive the 4runner you can arraign this with the internet sales managers with no pressure selling. Good luck. They also can cut you the best deal on any of the 4runners on the lot.

okay i think i understand everything now.

I'm gonna try to cope with driving my 89 accord with a broken a/c and broken headlight switch.

(for some reason the taillights no longer work and the headlights are on 24/7. I have to put the headlight fuses back in everytime i want to use them and take them out so my battery doenst die when i dont. Also, i bought some nite lights and rigged them in the taillight section and "extension corded" them to my cigaratte lighter)

hopefully she can handle a couple more months of work.

anyway, if yall have any more info regarding what you think about 04 v8 versus 05 v8, please enlighten me.

thanks again

jason

jasonlee said:

okay i think i understand everything now.

I'm gonna try to cope with driving my 89 accord with a broken a/c and broken headlight switch.

(for some reason the taillights no longer work and the headlights are on 24/7. I have to put the headlight fuses back in everytime i want to use them and take them out so my battery doenst die when i dont. Also, i bought some nite lights and rigged them in the taillight section and "extension corded" them to my cigaratte lighter)

hopefully she can handle a couple more months of work.

anyway, if yall have any more info regarding what you think about 04 v8 versus 05 v8, please enlighten me.

thanks again

jason

Click to expand...

Wow, that's almost funny sounding... so you're driving that around just to wait for for 05 models? As much as I like VVT-i and the couple of other changes being made for '05, I really just can't see driving a car with jerry-rigged night lights for tail lights (with no brake lights) for that long unless you do almost no night time driving.

Jason:

Why don't you rig up a cheap toggle switch between your fusebox and the headlights so you don't have to pull the fuse each time? Might cost $1.

Henry

Howdy Folks!

I've seen the platform packaging variation on the same engine make the difference being indicated by Toyota. It's a delta of 12HP (282 vs. 270 in the 4R), and that could easily be induction/exhaust.

I've seen this a number of times in GM product lines with all their LSx variations.

I know NA power plants aren't that effected by exhaust (like the power you pick up from an aftermarket setup), but that peak number can be effected by things like the cam, or what I guess you could call duration/lift peak values from the VVTi.

For example, I saw (during some proof-of-HP testing) a stock Z06 picked up 5-6 HP from an aftermarket exhaust (exhaust, not headers). This was reproduced a few times, by swapping -n- testing (Dynojet 248C). That same car wound up with a bigger cam down the road (TR224), and after the cam install, the exhaust made a **13HP** difference vs. stock.

So maybe the induction/exhaust didn't make as much difference on the older "fixed" cam V8, but the peak with VVTi, yeah, I could see ~12HP difference because of the intake, exhaust design - and as someone mentioned, maybe a slight tweak to the ecu to accomodate different intake air volume, exhaust velocities, scavaging, etc,. etc.

Or maybe they just wanted to Sequoia to have more HP? Maybe it's the same as the length + the width of the car?? Pulled out of a hat?



:cheers:

DT