Toyota owners seem to be a fickle group
- Thread starter Jernik
- Start date
So if we had the GX V8, a 6AT or 8AT like the LC, LED headlights, and a front locking diff, this thread would not exist?
Probably. But you would need to add a solid axle and manual gearbox option for the rock heads.
Jetboy
New member
So if we had the GX V8, a 6AT or 8AT like the LC, LED headlights, and a front locking diff, this thread would not exist?
IMHO - if the 2020 updates included the 4.6 v8 option and 8AT in the Limited and TRD OR packages and the v6 models came with a 6AT and 4.30 diffs, I really don't think this thread would exist. We probably wouldn't have even needed to see after dark or have a front locker. Throw in an upper control arm re-design that has enough caster to still work with a 3" lift and some adjustments to the plastics so 33" tires fit and I think we'd be having a parade (a shitty parade with no candy and facemasks, but a parade.)
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RichinRidgewood
New member
Honestly I was going to post something about JB and his incessant whining that there is a 6 speed box with only 5 gears being used in a 4R (Im not even sure this is true anyhow but lets go with it for now). I trust Toyota knows enough about their powertrain systems and has simulators and world class engineering specialists making decisions. More gears doesnt mean better. Depending upon how you are driving you may not ever even use all 9 gears in a 9 speed box for example. The shift sequence is not 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9. It may be 1,4,7,9 or 1,3,5,6,8,9 etc.
The whole premise of "Toyota Owners Seem to be a Fickle Group" is bullsheet anyhow. So this thread is pointless.
probos
New member
I would argue the "distracted by shiny things" people are more the norm in 2020.
OP is spot on -- Toyota in general and especially 4Runner owners are a fickle bunch. I'm guilty of this myself. However, as things continue to change and at a much more accelerated rate I find myself loving the "old skoolness" of my 4R.
Mine came with a 6AT. What do you guys have? My MPG is 19/25 too. I'm not sure what all the fuss is about?
Jetboy
New member
6AT would bring a second overdrive gear. The result would be that we would could have lower differential gear ratios and still have a highway rpm that is in the higher part of the engine's thermal efficiency range (good highway mpg). It would also allow for 3 (or more) gears with torque converter lockup - so towing or even just driving in the mountains would result in less transmission heat buildup and likely longer life.
The lower differential gears significantly improve city driving, initial acceleration, and low speed control off road. It's a win in every condition the 4Runner is used for. Literally - there is no downside I can come up with.
4.56 gearing would be practically identical on the highway with the 6AT as 3.73 gearing is with the 5AT. The A750 and A760 have the same gear ratios - because they share the same gear train - in gears 1-5. 5th gear is 0.716. 6th gear is 0.586.
With 3.73 diff ratio and the 5AT, the net 5th gear ratio is 2.67. With 4.56 diff ratio and the 6AT - you guessed it - final OD ratio is 2.67. It's within .1%. So the 6at with 4.56 gears would drive almost identically on the highway to the 5AT, but also have more than 20% lower gearing at the low end. It would make re-gearing for larger tires a non-issue.
So - in a nutshell, the 6AT with 4.56 gear performance with no highway mpg hit. It's a no-brainer IMO.
6AT with 3.73 gears would be kinda pointless - you'd never hit 6th gear. But at least it would allow us all to re-gear without compromise. Like the new Tacomas.
The 8AT is even better because it has a MUCH deeper 1st gear. With the 8AT and 3.73 diffs first gear net ratio is still lower than the 5AT with 4.56 diffs. With 4.30 diffs and the 8AT, you'd have 35% lower first gear net ratio AND higher top gear net ratio. You would also have a lower low range/first gear combo than a 4:1 low range lefty case and the current 5AT.
I'm not sure why anyone wouldn't wouldn't want a 4:1 low range equivalent, much improved city driving and towing, and similar highway cruising.
The extra gears really help target the peak efficiency range. Especially on an engine like ours with a relatively small bsfc sweet spot. Modern engines have advanced a lot in terms of expanding the range of operation in high fuel efficiency. The 1GR would probably benefit more from a modern transmission than most modern engines.
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Because then they couldn't rant and rave about how wonderful their truck with 20 year old transmission technology is and complain about all of us *****ing about the dinosaur-esque aspects of it
.
Jetboy
New member
You don't have to take my word for it. You can compare yourself:
https://webshop.ganzeboom.net/fileuploader/download/download/?d=0&file=custom/upload/A761.pdf
vs
https://webshop.ganzeboom.net/fileuploader/download/download/?d=0&file=custom/upload/a750-opti-0.pdf
Would you rather have a lower first gear and the same gearing across the range as we currently have or not? It's that simple. That's what the 6AT with 4.56 diffs would mean. An extra gear at the low end. Better performance in every respect. If you don't want it - why not a 4 speed? Or let's toss a TH350 in there. Who needs overdrive?
Toyota uses the 6AT in almost every application of the 150 platform globally except the 4Runner. And the new Tacoma 6AT is basically the same thing as well with some minor updates.
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thennen
New member
Ok, being a guy who's perfectly happy with the 5-speed that my 2019 has, your explanation makes sense. I don't really pay too much attention to transmission gearing, and how it relates to the rear end gearing, and how adding another gear or two allows you to have a differently-geared rear end from the factory. Seeing it explained has opened my eyes a bit. Like most, I've spent all my time with my current 4Runner on pavement, and as a result, I have zero complaints about the current transmission.
So I do have a question for you: where would you stop? With today's 10-speed (or more?) transmissions, I've heard of numerous problems. Perhaps this is because they hunt for the right gear too much?
Jetboy
New member
We're really not even asking for the good stuff. Most markets not only get 33mpg with the 2.8 diesel (although pretty underpowered, they just got nice bump up to 201hp/ 370tq that might actually be enough to drive well even in north america), but they also have 40 gallon fuel tank options. So 1,200+ mile potential range.
I can't tell if this is actually an OEM product. But it sure looks like it. Might even fit a 4Runner.
RichinRidgewood
New member
You are just just waving your hands in the air JB like so many internet pseudo-intellectuals do. You have not presented any mpg improvements data. "Because it's better" (facepalm) is not a good reason and is certainly not considered data. I'm sure Toyota has a lot of data that was reviewed by their Chief Engineer before the 5 speed was selected.
I look at this discussion, 5 speed vs 6 speed, the same as LED lights bullshit. There is only one guy with data and he is on the Taco forum. Its quite clear what the best solution is once you look at the data. The rest are just noisy fan boys or shills spouting off unsubstantiated nonsense.
SpeedyKevin
New member
Instead of asking for data, can you prove his statements or math wrong? I feel that would be more fruitful to the conversation.
83Mule
New member
He's not waving His hands......it's FACTS! He is dead-on as to the benefit with no downside as the trans is already a reliable unit that is not being used to it's potential for the lack of $50 worth of guts inside. Better mpg would be a natural benefit of the increased torque through gearing but really it's the flexibility the gearing in the axle AND trans bring to the platform that would benefit larger tires and drive ability . Win Win for little investment. If the 1GR were tuned for a little less HP and more low and mid torque it would really improve the drivetrain IMO.
Jetboy
New member
The 6AT would be enough for me although I'd obviously prefer the 8AT. I don't necessarily need more gears for the sake of more gears. It's the extra range that really solves a lot of problems and opens up the ability to have a lot more different loads while still keeping efficiency up.
For me - it was really obvious just going back and forth between my 4Runner and my RX350. My RX is a lot more similar than you might think. It's a 2GR 3.5 and 6AT. HP and tq are pretty similar. Incidentally it shares the nearly identical transmission gearing ratios in the U660 as the A760, but has a torque converter lock up in every gear except 1st. The RX350 is within about 300lbs as well. The two are very different chassis, with very similar powertrains. But they feel worlds apart - in large part I believe due to the 4.40 diff ratio in the RX. The RX even tows better (not really overall - but it does the pull part better without a doubt, no gear hunting, smooth shifts, finds the right gears on steep hills and with the converter lockup in any gear it probably runs cooler trans temps too).
IMO the RX as different as it is - provides a great benchmark for the right gearing and transmission tune. It's just better. My parents have a 2019 Tacoma TRDOR. And the 6AT in that paired with 3.73 gears is shit. If you're going to stick with 3.73 diffs - then there's really no point in the 6th gear. It rarely uses it. And it simultaneously gets crappy mpgs and feels gutless. The Tacoma is how not to do it. The RX is how to do it correctly. And the RX and Tacoma actually share nearly identical engines, transmission ratios, and curb weights.
For me - with factory tire size the 5At is okay. But not peppy. I was generally pretty pleased with stock tires. So long as you keep it totally stock - it's not bad. But with larger tires it struggles more. I really liked the driving characteristics of 4.56 diffs. Every condition except highway speeds was better with the lower geared diffs. It felt far more powerful. And I'm sure the acceleration was significantly improved. But ultimately I ended up removing them and going back to 3.73 because of the highway mpg hit.
I do a lot of highway driving miles and I decided that if I was going to get 15-16mpg or less at times, I'm okay with that - but once I give up on mpg - why not have more power? The reason I bought the 4Runner over a GX was the higher mpg. Weirdly the 4Runner was 17/21/19 and is now 16/19/17. Not sure what happened. My first year mostly stock I consistently returned around 21mpg. I had no problem matching or beating the EPA estimate. I can still get uncorrected dash mpg of 19mpg on the highway. But it's really sluggish with the taller tires and high gearing.
So I'm stuck in no-man's land. The 6AT would solve that. Or a more powerful engine. When the 2010 4R came out in 2009 the 5AT was getting old, but till adequate in the small market of midsize BOF suvs. I didn't think we'd be here 11 years later still waiting for some updates. And the easy ones are basically free for Toyota to do. The 1GR is already in 150 platforms in other markets with the 6 speed auto behind the 1GR or 7GR. What that means is that a v6 150 chassis is being built and it has a tag that it's going to be a 4Runner for the USA, it gets a 5AT. If it's going to China - it gets a 6AT. Going to Australia? 6AT. Going to Dubai - 6AT. It's just toyota and Toyota North America jsut not giving a f about the 4Runner customers at this point. There's not really another explanation I can think of.
The Bronco was kind of a slap to the head to me to wake up and quit making excusing for Toyota. I don't need a turbo 6, 10 speed, 95:1 crawl ratio, dual lockers, and 35s - I want them, but not necessary. However - annual new paint color that's standard on the Rav4 color chart and a cooler in the back isn't enough anymore.
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Jetboy
New member
I'm assuming you've never actually taken your 4Runner off road? Or any vehicle? Get back to us when you try it. You'll probably understand a little more.
Also - I'm pretty sure you didn't actually understand the light info on the tacoma forum. OEM HID lights are quite different from aftermarket HID or LED bulbs in halogen projectors that were being compared. We're talking about OEM lighting updates. Not slapping a cheap HID bulb in a halogen projector housing.
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^ The last paragraph of this really sums things up pretty nicely. Don't spit in my face and tell me it's raining.
thennen
New member
Yep, I get what you're saying. Makes sense to me, even if my understanding is limited.
Here's something I think would be really cool and helpful - being able to have occasional forums with Toyota 4Runner engineering and marketing. For example, the 5-speed vs 6-speed question - thinking about it objectively, there have to be real and good reasons why they settled on the drivetrain they did. Contrary to the opinions of many on here, they didn't do it just to piss people off, or to be cheap (although it needs to be accepted that saving money is a real and valid reason), or because they're lazy (really, people think this), or because they "don't know how". Seriously? Most manufacturers know how to do just about everything. They simply have to weigh every piece and process and fit it into an attractive package at an attractive price that they can ALSO profit from.
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