Lexus Dethroned, Buick and Jaguar Tie for 1st in J.D. Power Dependability Study
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Thai
Elite Member
Here is the more complete story: http://www.autoblog.com/2009/03/19/jaguar-and-buick-upset-lexus-in-j-d-power-2009-vehicle-dependab/
Well, everyone has been saying that Toyota quality has been slipping for the last few years, mostly because of the incredibly high demand for their vehicles and the difficulty with maintaining their high level of quality while meeting that demand.
Buick and Jaguar sell just a fraction of the vehicles, so they should have excellent quality/reliability.
Buick and Jaguar sell just a fraction of the vehicles, so they should have excellent quality/reliability.
Thai said:
Sure, the numbers are the numbers. But there's no denying that it is harder to maintain a high level of quality/reliabilty when you are a high volume manufacturer (of anything) compared to a low volume manufacturer in the same industry.
I think most people would agree that this is the primary reason that Toyota's quality has slipped a bit recently. It's difficult to keep growing at the rate that they've grown and at the same time keep up the same levels of quality.
gptoy96
New member
The JD survey has always irked me.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't their results based on the first 90 days of ownership? That means nothing to me in the scheme of things. I buy my vehicles to last, the reason I have my Toyotas.
I'd like them to put one of those Buicks or Jags against my 13 year old, 256,000kms Runner and I bet I'd still win.
So maybe a button fell off a Camry, or someone thought the paint chipped easily on their new Tacoma to bring the ratings down. But every day when I jump into my old truck and it fires up like new I have no doubts about Toyota Quality. Just basic maintenance and she keeps going like a top, no major repairs ever required. I wonder how much work either one of those other makes would need to last that long.
I also have an 04 Runner and have not noticed any lapse of Quality, and feel confident that it will treat me at least as good as my old one.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't their results based on the first 90 days of ownership? That means nothing to me in the scheme of things. I buy my vehicles to last, the reason I have my Toyotas.
I'd like them to put one of those Buicks or Jags against my 13 year old, 256,000kms Runner and I bet I'd still win.
So maybe a button fell off a Camry, or someone thought the paint chipped easily on their new Tacoma to bring the ratings down. But every day when I jump into my old truck and it fires up like new I have no doubts about Toyota Quality. Just basic maintenance and she keeps going like a top, no major repairs ever required. I wonder how much work either one of those other makes would need to last that long.
I also have an 04 Runner and have not noticed any lapse of Quality, and feel confident that it will treat me at least as good as my old one.
Thai
Elite Member
gptoy96 said:
No, this study is different...please read link above:
"The Vehicle Dependability Study is designed to accurately measure problems experienced by original owners of three-year-old (2006 model year) vehicles. J.D. Power based this year's results on responses from more than 46,000 original owners of 2006 model-year vehicles. For 2009, the study has also been redesigned to include 202 different problem symptoms across all areas of the vehicle. Scores are based on the number of problems experienced per 100 vehicles (PP100), with lower scores reflecting higher vehicle quality."
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Before anyone jump on JD Powers, please note that Lexus has been at the top for past 14 years, including last year's 2008 results!! So, if you discredit JD Powers THIS YEAR, then should we discredit Lexus awards the past 14 years too???? I know that we all are Toyota fans, but lets be a bit more open-minded. Lexus and Toyota are not without faults recently....
gptoy96
New member
Ah, I just glanced over it and went with my assumption.
For years the domestics have been touting their acheivements with JD and it's always been for "Initial Quality" scores. They've pumped it up so much I didn't realize that there were other categories!
Perhaps there's some merit to it but I still have my faith in Toyota, one bump in the road isn't going to change my mind anytime soon.
For years the domestics have been touting their acheivements with JD and it's always been for "Initial Quality" scores. They've pumped it up so much I didn't realize that there were other categories!
Perhaps there's some merit to it but I still have my faith in Toyota, one bump in the road isn't going to change my mind anytime soon.
I used to think that Toyota was suffering from "growing pains", but I don't buy that any more. Everything could have problems at some point, but what bothers me is that Toyota is issuing TSB's for things that don't ever get corrected on the assembly line. I don't think you should ever have a TSB for an actual problem that covers more than one model year, especially if there is a known solution.
Some examples that jump to mind include the smelly catalytic converters and the rear leaf springs on Tacoma. (The factory rear leaf spring pack only has 3 leaves, and it bottoms out very easily under load. The TSB calls for installing a 4-leaf pack.) Both of those TSB's cover all model years of the current generation of the vehicles.
Why make the customers complain about those problems and then pay the dealer to correct it? Why not just fix the problem at the source and be done with it? I imagine it's because the replacement parts are more expensive, and Toyota can save money if most customers don't complain. If that's it, I think that's a pretty lousy approach to building cars. I'm already paying a premium for the Toyota because I'm expecting a better product, so Toyota should just do it right the first time.
Don't get me wrong - I love my Toyota products and I"m generally very satisfied with them. I'm just afraid that Toyota might be trying to find ways to cut corners, and that's not how they got to be # 1.
Some examples that jump to mind include the smelly catalytic converters and the rear leaf springs on Tacoma. (The factory rear leaf spring pack only has 3 leaves, and it bottoms out very easily under load. The TSB calls for installing a 4-leaf pack.) Both of those TSB's cover all model years of the current generation of the vehicles.
Why make the customers complain about those problems and then pay the dealer to correct it? Why not just fix the problem at the source and be done with it? I imagine it's because the replacement parts are more expensive, and Toyota can save money if most customers don't complain. If that's it, I think that's a pretty lousy approach to building cars. I'm already paying a premium for the Toyota because I'm expecting a better product, so Toyota should just do it right the first time.
Don't get me wrong - I love my Toyota products and I"m generally very satisfied with them. I'm just afraid that Toyota might be trying to find ways to cut corners, and that's not how they got to be # 1.
DavidAlexander
New member
Not to stereotype but most of the new Jaguars, Buicks, and Mercurys that I see usually have a non-mechanical woman, a sloppy person driving, or the car is dirty and sloppy inside. That is what leasing the car and not caring about what happens in the long term does. Like another said, the Buick/Jag/Merc owners unload their rundown POS on someone else. Typical.
Is it any surprise that they wouldn't care to bring their car in to address problems? Not really. They don't have high standards of quality and wouldn't bring a car into be checked like the loyal Lexus/Toyota buyers.
We'll see how those same cars fare in a ten year update. My prediction is that they will not hold their value or reliability after that time passes.
Is it any surprise that they wouldn't care to bring their car in to address problems? Not really. They don't have high standards of quality and wouldn't bring a car into be checked like the loyal Lexus/Toyota buyers.
We'll see how those same cars fare in a ten year update. My prediction is that they will not hold their value or reliability after that time passes.
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Thai
Elite Member
DavidAlexander said:
Huh??? Leasing is quite popular with any brands, not just Jag and Buick. Ignorance is rampant across all brands too.
BTW, if you read the above link, then you will see that Buick has been CONSISTENTLY near the top for many years now, not just this year. Jag is a surprise for sure, but lets not kick Buick to the curb since it has been just as consistent as Lexus.
I hope my '04 TR4 is still as strong after 16 years as my '93 Buick Park Ave is. MPG keeps going UP after all these years. Now 27 at 70+ mph. Supercharged v6. Great comfort. Just did 550 miles with one 20 minute stop. Not word one of complaint from family. I could have kept going! Would have gotten a Rainier, but couldn't find one with curtain air bags. A rocket with the V8.
DavidAlexander
New member
Thai said:
I guess I am a cranky Ahole in the morning.
I should give Kudos to some of the other makers for raising their quality standards. Buick has had different management styles than other same owner brands like Chevy, GMC, Pontiac so congrats to them for a good job.
I am dissapointed that a company like Scion has lower ratings while Toyota and Lexus are high. I would like to see them carry these standards to Scion as well.
It is good to see that auto makers are making cars that should last longer now.
Rover+Runner
New member
One question that irks me about this survey is how can Buick be so far ahead of other GM siblings like Chevrolet? Their vehicles share platforms and are most likely manufactured with similar techniques/conditions. It makes me think that it may go back to the owner's expectation of ownership.
EVIL CONSPIRACY THEORY: Buick could have a mandate to dealers to coerce owners into returning a J.D. Power survey with good scores.
For example, Volkswagen NA pushes dealers hard to have customers return surveys with 10/10 satisfaction scores. When we purchased her 2009 Tiguan it was mentioned twice during the sales pitch, during financing, and every time we take it in for service and in follow-up phone calls. Buick could have a similar policy in effect but for the J.D. Power survey. Pure speculation on my part.
EVIL CONSPIRACY THEORY: Buick could have a mandate to dealers to coerce owners into returning a J.D. Power survey with good scores.
For example, Volkswagen NA pushes dealers hard to have customers return surveys with 10/10 satisfaction scores. When we purchased her 2009 Tiguan it was mentioned twice during the sales pitch, during financing, and every time we take it in for service and in follow-up phone calls. Buick could have a similar policy in effect but for the J.D. Power survey. Pure speculation on my part.
dieselwolf
New member
Sorry, I don't buy it. Where is RAV4? Ford Ranger over Tacoma? Huh? I don't even know when was the last time I saw a Ranger? Not that I would notice.. Caravan over Sienna? That's gotta be a joke.. And on this: "The study found that Buick, Lincoln, Mercury and Jaguar owners are less likely to replace components than owners of other vehicle brands". - yeah, they probably just replace the car.
Thai
Elite Member
DavidAlexander said:
Ahh, don't worry, i am a cranky ahole all day long!
What is interesting is that Scion recently was highly recommended by Consumer Reports (i think!). So, you now have two surveys going against each other. To be honest, i trust CR more than JD Powers. However, the TREND is what i look at in all the surveys. For example, i would still buy a lexus over a buick (even if everything else being equal) simply because lexus has been at the top for so long...trend = likelihood. I would not buy VW because the trend says that it sucks the big one...and it has suck for so long!
