'03 Hill-Start major malfunction!

[hammersmith]

Thai,

I apologize if you feel I was being "bitchy". If you read my last
post you will notice a certified Toyota mechanic feels this is a DEFECT.
It is VERY frustrating when I ask a simple question (is this happening
to you?) and you respond with "it's not a problem".

That said, you are the one that chose to use foul language and
insult me. You're out of line. You owe me an apology.

Can you PLEASE get off-road off your mind for one second??!!
I think your "two feet" are blocking some text on your monitor
because you continue to miss the point so badly.

While you expressed your opinion so eloquently:

"From my feeling, you don't know crap about off-roading".

In your own simple way, you are correct. I do not take my 4Runners
off-road. However, I do take them in and out of my three car
garage so I do know a thing or two about my driveway.

I might not know "crap" about off-roading but I have been designing
computer systems for >20 years and possess the ability to comprehend
new technologies. Unfortunately HAC and its underpinnings continue to baffle
you- You clearly do not understand the technology (earlier you made a joke about
how it worked by "reading your mind"..) so it's no use trying to explain it
further. Question: When you're typing your hundreds of posts and come to the
end of the text line, do you believe your computer is "reading your mind"
when it automatically performs a carriage return, line feed?

Dimensions (height) being incorrect in literature can hardly be compared
to improperly describing a critical safety subsystem and its inner-workings.

PS. >700 of your posts on this site alone? I think we all know why she's now your "ex-girlfriend"...

 

[Thai]

Hammersmith,

Thanks for responding. Let me clarify this one more time: Be polite please. If you have not noticed, this is a forum i created...thus, that is why i have many posts. Clearly, you should have picked up on that. Yeah, you're right, that's why my girlfriend dumped me....

"I have been designing computer systems for >20 years..." Again, is that supposed to impress me or make you more credible??

Let me see, how many people on this forum (and on 4x4wire) respect a Toyota mechanic???? You can probably count on ONE hand! I once asked 3 dealership mechanic if my ABS system is 4-channel or 3-channel...they all gave me the wrong answer! I also asked them if my 4Runner came with a transmission cooler...again, all said YES, which is the wrong answer. Oh yeah, they sure know a lot about our vehicles! None of them even knows about the engine oil cooler (or where it's located) in my 4Runner (standard feature).

In conclusion, i do hope that you trade in your 4Runner ASAP and get a BMW X5. X5 is a wonderful machine. Just for starters, here is a forum for BMW owners:

http://www.bmwexperience.com/

Enjoy your X5. Thanks for being a member here.

 

[hammersmith]

Thai,

It's interesting you demand everyone on "your" forum be polite then you make
sarcastic comments such as "don't know crap", "buy the X5 ASAP". Why don't
you take your own advice? What's more, YOU lit this thing not me. Really, I never
intended to offend anyone, but then I never planed to debate the issue. I wasn't
asking *if* this was a problem, rather *has anyone else experienced it*.
YOU took it off track. I'm just frustrated waiting for Toyota
to fix this.

Okay, since you are smarter than the Toyota certified chief mechanic at
my dealership, maybe you can explain why a cold vehicle holds on a slight
incline then after warming up for 10-15 minutes rolls backward? If you
want it your way you must explain why the behavior changes simply by
warming the vehicle. Why are the results intermittent? If there is NO
problem here why does the vehicle's response on the exact same incline
in the exact same spot vary? Since I don't know crap, enlighten me/us with
your immeasurable genius.

Here's your chance to show everyone how brilliant you are with all your
4x4, off-road, SUV, automobile, knowledge. Wait! Maybe I can locate the grandson
of Kiichiro Toyoda and he can listen in on your astute, precise,
interpretation of this non-problem.

Designing computers has taught me not to be surprised by new
technologies that perform very sophisticated tasks. How there are very
few limitations when constructing new hardware, firmware and applications.
Don't be impressed Thai, just try to keep up.

Also, since this is your forum and we obviously do not see eye to eye,
why don't you recommend another 4Runner site and I'll be happy to
leave you and your vast knowledge behind. BTW, .org is for
hacks and those left behind.

(I didn't buy the X5. One
was being sold when I arrived at the dealer, the other was a color I
did not care for). But thanks for the link anyway.

PS. Can't wait for you to see that recall notice when it comes out. Oh forgot,
you wont get the notice because you have the OLD 4Runner.. sorry no offense.

 

[Diablo3305]

PS. Can't wait for you to see that recall notice when it comes out.

just curious, but why do you feel this is a design flaw/recall, when it just might be a faulty part in your truck. I have never had a problem with this system, even when the car is warm, nor have I really heard of anyone having a problem like this. You mentioned the technicians truck doing the same thing, however its also not unlikely that its just a faulty part in both trucks (sounds rather strange I know) ... Sorry you are having such problems, however I just kinda think it to be wrong to state this as a defect or recall when you don't even know for sure the reasons. To me a recall is something that is wrong with a large quantity of vehicles, not just a select few.

 

[Thai]

Yup, i have the OLD 3rd gen 4runner, which is still highly sought after by the way. I love my 4Runner...unfortunately, that cannot be said about you.

Ok...your 4Runner is a BIG fat major problem. Are you happy, now?? Here's a tissue for you.

Here is a 4runner forum which would love to have your presence:

http://www.4x4wire.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=forum;f=13;DaysPrune=100

Good luck with your search.

"BTW, .org is for hacks and those left behind." Ok....

"...why don't you recommend another 4Runner site and I'll be happy to leave you and your vast knowledge behind."

Hopefully, you will keep your promise.

Again, thanks for being a member. Good luck in finding your dream vehicle.

 

[Thai]

Oh yeah, being a > 20 year computer person, you canNOT find another internet 4Runner forum???!!!

Hint: YAHOO search or GOOGLE search does wonders...but, wait, i don't need to tell you that....

 

[hammersmith]

Diablo,

I predicted a recall since the problem affected two '03's
built one month apart. Too much of a coincidence in my
book to only affect these two trucks. What do you think?

I'm not stating every '03 4Runner will experience
this problem (that's why I posted the question in the first
place) but so far, I've witnesses 2 for 2 with HAC trouble.
Those are some odds.

Also, a manufacture will issue a recall simply to cover their behinds.
(There was a recall for shocks on my '98 Limited but I never had a bit of
trouble with shocks. Head gasket recall on my associates '88 but his
truck never experienced trouble in this area).

Be very glad this is not happening on your '03, but if/when there
is a recall, consider having it done.

The simple fact it is not happening on your '03 proves
my truck (and the mechanic's Sport) is malfunctioning. Would
you agree? This alone should put to rest whether or not this is a
HAC design or defect.

True, I do not know why it's happening but I know it wasn't designed
to act this way (especially since it works when cold). Maybe I
shouldn't have guaranteed a recall but I'd certainly bet one is coming.
(A brand new model with many new complicated electronics?
It's not hard to believe they missed something on the first model year.
I'm sure you've read the '03 literature. This truck is brand new from
the ground up. It really has nothing in common with last years
4Runner. Stuff happens).

 

[Diablo3305]

The simple fact it is not happening on your '03 proves
my truck (and the mechanic's Sport) is malfunctioning. Would
you agree? This alone should put to rest whether or not this is a
HAC design or defect.

yea, I would agree that something is probably wrong, if the problems are as you stated. I guess you will have to see what happens. All cars have problems, however me coming from a ford, I see that Toyota has a far superior build quality. The 03 is also very new, so figuring out what causes problems like this will probably be rather difficult to figure out.

You may want to try:

www.yotatech.com
www.tundrasolutions.com

see if anyone there has experienced similiar problems. Like i said, I haven't heard of this yet. Good luck with getting this resolved.

 

[hammersmith]

Thai,

One good thing that came out of all this- I exposed you for the
dimwit that you are. We all were very impressed with
your explanation of the intermittent HAC problem. Wow, you
flawlessly backed up all your design statements and put us in
our place. What a wealth of knowledge you are. Too bad you're too
gutless to admit you are wrong.

I extracted from you everything you knew about HAC and
evolving technologies. NOTHING.

Okay Pad Thai, let me take guess at a few things..

-You're 18-22 years old
-Work part-time at the local Pizza Hut
-Community college dropout (that first week can be tough)
-Single and no where close to ever finding a person (let alone
a girl) that will sink to your intellectual level.
-Wasted tons of your minimum wage salary on a '02. "Highly
sought after"?? That pig depreciated beyond you comprehension
when you installed all that crap and put all those dents and
scratches in it. If you're lucky, it's worth $9K but then you
owe twice that much.

Oh yeah, you can't live with your parents forever. Move out and
grow up, twerp.

No offense- What do you think about the Acura MDX oh wise one?

 

[Diablo3305]

No offense- What do you think about the Acura MDX oh wise one?

this fighting is getting kinda stupid...one of you guys should just "be the bigger man" and stop..anyway

as far as the MDX, i actually chose between that and the 4 Runner when I got my truck. Here are the reasons I chose the 4 Runner

- More impressive features for about the same cost
- I didn't like the climate control in the MDX, it was only dual zone, and in a very very akward place.
-Heated seats only had 1 setting I think, or maybe two, but it didn't have a range like the 4 Runner has
- I loved the way the 4 Runner drove compared to the MDX, the mdx was way too car like
- I did like the black leather interior on the MDX alot, but that alone was not worth the purchase
- MDX does have a better warranty, and it is honda's luxury line, however I liked the styling of the 4 Runner much more.

It took me alittle while to decide, but I think i chose right. After all, the MDX would haev actually cost more than I paid for my limited 03, and I get nicer features with the 4 Runner, and a much better looking truck in my opinion. In the price range, I really think the new 4 Runner is the best out there. If i had the choice, I would have gone with a 4.4 l X5, because I really do like that car, but the cost doesn't justify it. Id like to get a sports car in a few years, maybe an M3 or something, that will satisfy my need for speed and fun driving.

 

[testrider]

None of them even knows about the engine oil cooler (or where it's located) in my 4Runner (standard feature).

Thai,

While you mentioned it, where is it? I looked as hard as I could and the best I could guess is the one that sits on top of the oil filter? (I expected to see a conventional fin-and-tube type of cooler).
Sorry for side-tracking a little bit here

-Mike-

 

[hammersmith]

Diablo,

Thanks for the MDX info. I also much prefer truck-like
features rather than a luxury car trying to be a SUV.

I own a '02 M3. Without a doubt, one of the most
exciting cars on the road. Very pricey (dealer even
got away with tacking on several thousand dollars
markup since car was in such demand). But it was worth it.
Plus BMW dealer treats us like royalty. They pick up the
car from our house for oil changes and detail it
free of charge (maybe not so free- paid over $60K for the rocket).

I traded in a 2000 hardtop vette for the M3 and
have no regrets. Almost bought a Z06 but decided
to wait for the new corvette body-style in a couple
of years. C5's are nice but seven years old now. Got to
get rid of those pop-up headlights once and for all (been
there since 1963).

Find a way to get a M3. They're unreal!

 

[Thai]

Okay Pad Thai, let me take guess at a few things..

-You're 18-22 years old
-Work part-time at the local Pizza Hut
-Community college dropout (that first week can be tough)
-Single and no where close to ever finding a person (let alone
a girl) that will sink to your intellectual level.
-Wasted tons of your minimum wage salary on a '02. "Highly
sought after"?? That pig depreciated beyond you comprehension
when you installed all that crap and put all those dents and
scratches in it. If you're lucky, it's worth $9K but then you
owe twice that much.

Oh yeah, you can't live with your parents forever. Move out and
grow up, twerp.

No offense- What do you think about the Acura MDX oh wise one?

I won't even bother to answer the first four guesses by you. Again, for a computer nerd with > 20 years "experience", you still do NOT know how to find info about a forum member. Hint: there is a BUTTON named, "PROFILE" at the end of my every post. Quite simple if you ask me...and i do not even have > 20 years of computer experience!

And, you know what they say when you ASSUME things....

Now, about my '02 4runner, why would i care about depreciation?? I am keeping my 4Runner for a LONG time. No scratches nor dents because i off-road in the open...i don't off-road in the deep woods where branches can get me. But, thanks for your concerns. I am touched.

As for Acura MDX, you can look at COMPARISONS section of this forum to read more about it. It is a very good cross-over (minivan & SUV) SUV for the price. You should wait a little...wait till the Volvo XC90 and Lexus GX470 (or RX330) make a bigger dent in the mid-size SUV market. By then, the MDX will likely be sold below MSRP. Of course, with competitors like XC90 and Lexus RX330, i think MDX is no longer best in class. I would favor the RX330.

Just in case you cannot find where COMPARISONS is, here is the link:

http://www.toyota-4runner.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=39

There is also an excellent forum about MDX:

http://acuramdx.org/forums/

Hope this helps.

 

[Thai]

Hammersmith,

We do agree on one thing...BMW M3. I like it a lot...and was thinking of getting it as a second car...more for short runs on the weekends. However, it's reliability (mainly engine) concerns me a lot, especially if i would keep it for a long time. If i were to get it, i would get the M3 with SMG transmission...very nice! SMG...a dream transmission!

I was also considering the Lexus SC430 convertible coupe. Very nice interior with a top-notch stereo system! Exterior is kinda bubbly....

 

[jharris2]

OK, I did a some experiments today while running errands. In all of them, the truck was in 2WD mode -- I wasn't sharp enough to think about switching to 4WD to see if it behaved the same way as described in this thread.

Over near a friend's house, I stopped on a very steep grade -- no idea what the grade is, but I've gone down many ski slopes that were flatter.

From a standing stop, I let off the brake -- the truck rolled back, beeped, and the traction control light flashed (the auto between squiggly lines, for the "techies" out there ). The rollback slowed, but never stopped unless I hit the brake or the accelerator. However, hitting the accelerator made the truck take off normally. It did not act as if it was on ice.

This evening, I tried again on a slope that is not as steep. The truck just stayed in place.

Is it possible that the grade was enough to make the HAC appear to malfunction?

 

[Thai]

Testrider,

Engine oil cooler is liquid cooled by the coolant. (It is NOT a regular fin-type radiator...it is NOT like the auto tranny cooler.) It diverts coolant through a canister-shaped unit. It should be found on the left side of the engine block to the rear of the engine mount. It is designed in with the water pump.

Actually, before owning my 4Runner, i never knew what is an engine oil cooler. Never thought the engine oil itself would need a cooler. I guess it makes sense...but never heard of it on any other car.

Hope this helps.

BTW, does anyone know if the '03 4Runner have this "engine oil cooler"?? (See, hammersmith, you're right, i don't know everything....)

 

[GatorGreg]

Thai,

One good thing that came out of all this- I exposed you for the
dimwit that you are. We all were very impressed with
your explanation of the intermittent HAC problem. Wow, you
flawlessly backed up all your design statements and put us in
our place. What a wealth of knowledge you are. Too bad you're too
gutless to admit you are wrong.

I extracted from you everything you knew about HAC and
evolving technologies. NOTHING.

Okay Pad Thai, let me take guess at a few things..

-You're 18-22 years old
-Work part-time at the local Pizza Hut
-Community college dropout (that first week can be tough)
-Single and no where close to ever finding a person (let alone
a girl) that will sink to your intellectual level.
-Wasted tons of your minimum wage salary on a '02. "Highly
sought after"?? That pig depreciated beyond you comprehension
when you installed all that crap and put all those dents and
scratches in it. If you're lucky, it's worth $9K but then you
owe twice that much.

Oh yeah, you can't live with your parents forever. Move out and
grow up, twerp.

No offense- What do you think about the Acura MDX oh wise one?

Holy crap, this has gotta be one of the most obnoxious/elitist posts I've read in a looooooong time!

BTW I have no clue what the deal is with your particular hill climb issue, but since you're considering the X5 I should mention I remember reading a comparo of the X5 v. MDX v. RX300 a few years back in either MT or C&D (I probably have the old issue in a closet somewhere) where the X5 could not even climb up a little hill because of all the electronic gadgetry screwing up somehow, a hill that the Lexus and Acura climbed with ease. This is why with the exception of ABS, I don't generally like computers (no offense Mr. Computer Guy) controlling my throttle and brakes

BTW, .org is for
hacks and those left behind.

I'm not a computer guy for a living so I'll admit I don't really know what you're referring to here. I will say that the choice of the .org name (as opposed to a .com) was made more for legal reasons than anything else

 

[Good Times]

....

This sounds like just one big flame back and forth... Such as waste of all the members time to even deal with it.

hammersmith:

First off... I would never quote this begin a thread.

PS. If you're researching new SUV's take this as a lesson. If Toyota doesn't
acknowledge this problem and issue a recall immediately, you should
not purchase a 2003 4-Runner!!!

This in itself is just purely stupid.

Originally posted by hammersmith
Has anyone else experienced this abnormal behavior with 2003's?

Now this is a better sentence.

I would never go to the point that it's a recall issue. I would be patient and see if this problem is an issue for everyone before stating such a outrageous statement. If all the members to experience this problem then at that point it should be stated.

Anyway, sorry to hear that you're having such a bad time... Do you have a v6? could be that it's v6 issue and not a v8. I myself have a v8 and have no problems...

If it indeed is a v6 problem: I'd say it's prob cause it's the 1st year release. We all know that this is a problem for all vehicles (regardless of toyota or anything). This is part of buyin the first year vehicle...

Hope your problem gets resolved. But keep in mind that the 4runner is still a reliable vehicle compared to any in it's class..

good luck and please chill on the flames guys....

Let's keep the threads to informational stuff that'll help all of us and not flame eachother... leave that to other lamer forums... Let's keep this forum legit!

Lance

 

[Thai]

Hey all,

On the first page of this thread, HAMMERSMITH posted a link showing the HAC video:

http://toyota4runner.com/html/shop/...erformance.html

After looking at the video closely, it DOES show the 4Runner rolling BACKWARDS before going forward!! I played it several times to check if my eyes are right. It rolls backwards!!

Check it out for yourself! The 4Runner braked, and then it rolls backwards a little bit before taking off. The shadow (showing other SUVs) rolled back further.

Damn, i wish i had reviewed that video sooner....

 

[Doublepump]

I tried to respond to this last night, but couldn't get signed up fast enough. So, I posted a question if anyone was having issues over at yotatech. I went out and tested my Runner as soon as I read this.

The manual states that it helps to prevent roll back, but doesn't actually say that it stops the vehicle and also states that it may not work on very slippery surfaces or very steep grades.

So, I went and tested mine on a very steep, paved hill, (dont know degree), that is by my house. I stopped on the incline and let go of the brake (4W Hi, D). The light with the vehicle and the wavey tread marks came on and I immediatly began to roll backwards, and I could hear the system doing something. It slowed me down for the 5 sec, and would release and I would roll back faster, then it would come on again and slow the vehicle. However, it never held me in one position. So, not sure if it should due to the angle, (guess I should try and figure out the angle). I was able to put it in 4W Lo, D and the truck stayed right where it was on its own, no computer assist systems came on. Now, on the way down, I put it in 4W Lo and hit the DAC, and that worked fine. Lots of noise and jerkiness but it kept the vehicle to a crawl. When I took it out of Lo and turned off the DAC I started to gain alot of speed going down the hill. So, I know the DAC works.

I have tried to get the HAC to work on not so steep hills, but I dont think they were steep enough, (driveway, smaller hills in area), because the vehicle wouldn't roll back, and the light with the tire tread marks never came on either.

So, HAC did slow my roll back considerably, but did not hold it in place. Not sure if operating correctly or not.