2014 4Runner

[Testerdahl]

And when is this "media reveal" going to take place and where? The more high tech interior might be appealing along with any new colors. Mostly the interior glitz.

For me it will be August 24th (it runs from the 22nd thru the 25th). It is in Jackson Hole, Wy.

Tim

 

[Testerdahl]

I found you here: Tim Esterdahl's Page - Rocky Mountain Automotive Press

As you see, the omissions are an independent rear suspension, V8, and 8-10 speed transmission.

What is does offer are:

- rear wheel drive, the best design for vehicles
- a nice wide rear cargo area, not one boxed-in as with most other SUVs
- medium size, so it is easy to park

We would all have to see one and drive one a decent distance to have other comments. I once bought a Toyota minivan and had to sell it after a few weeks, as the seats and left-slanted steering column produced severe neck and upper back pain which lasted into the day after driving it, so a good test drive to me has to be at least 100 miles, especially in a Toyota. FYI, my body was not the problem. I've driven my Explorer 158,500 miles thus far with no problems being comfortable.

Yep, you found me. Good Internet work!

As I have been reading through this thread, it sounds to me that the V-8 piece would be nice as an option, not a standard feature. Sound about right?

And I agree with you about test driving being longer. Frankly, I'm getting a 2013 4Runner press vehicle in a few weeks to drive for a week to really expand my knowledge and see how it drives.

Tim

 

[GRIMACE]

Hello,

Thought I would add to this thread instead of starting a new one. I am an automotive journalist and will be going to Toyota's media reveal for the new 4Runner. I'm wondering what really has you guys excited about it and/or (more importantly) what did they leave out? I'm currently reading through this thread and others, so forgive me for asking first.

Thanks!

Tim Esterdahl
Spork Publishing

I have had 3 Toyotas now. I'm hesitant in switching to the 2014. I really want the option of a diesel. Otherwise there's no reason part with my 2006. Although the grand Cherokee is making take a double take.

 

[LandCruiser]

The V8 would make a good option for ANY of the 3 TR models, I think it'd be fairly priced at 800-1000 bucks over the V6.

I'd really want a V8. Not really holding my breath for a diesel. Won't happen. Ever.

 

[Quentin]

4Runner sells 45k units a year in the US. BoF, solid rear axle SUV is already a niche because of comparatively poor ride and comparatively poor interior space compared to a unit body, transverse mounted CUV. A diesel makes it a niche of a niche. Maybe 10k extra units a year. But 5k of those were people that would have bought it with a V6 gasser if the diesel wasn't available. So it bumps you up a real total of 5k units. I don't think it makes business sense to deal with the federalization, R&D, and likely warranty risks the new particulate trap equipped diesels are seeing. To me, a V8 probably makes more sense in the 4Runner since Toyota already has 2 approved in the Tundra and they could probably fill out capacity at the Alabama engine plant. Again, though, does it bring enough new owners to the table to make sense? Does Toyota even have capacity for a sizable jump in 4Runner volume?

I'm also not entirely convinced that these 8 speed autos really do a ton for real world fuel economy. Maybe it is because I drive so little in the true flatlands, but I rarely find myself wishing that the revs were lower on the interstate. The same top gear with another ratio thrown in around 3rd or 4th gear would be nice for mountain driving, but again, that would be a newly developed transmission versus the 6AT in the Tundra. Maybe keep the same internal ratios as the Tundra and go with a shorter final drive would give you that?

I think my biggest beef with the '14 is the loss of the attractive roof rack on theTE and the general ugliness of the Limited. Otherwise, the interior is a massive improvement, particularly on the SR5. The exterior took the TE styling and took it a little more upmarket and the SR5 a little downmarket which was a good call in both cases. You can get black flares again with some vinyl wrap or buy some unpainted bits. Oh yeah, TE in Super White! Finally!

 

[M1911]

I'm also not entirely convinced that these 8 speed autos really do a ton for real world fuel economy.

They can increase fuel economy significantly:

Bloomberg reports that the nine-speed transmission Chrysler is developing could boost fuel economy of certain models by as much as 16%. Chrysler has already scored a 15% boost in the highway fuel economy of the Chrysler 300 and Dodge Charger by adding an eight-speed automatic transmission.

Most estimates that I've seen have been less 10%. Whatever the figure is, every little bit helps. That is why automakers are working so hard at reducing aerodynamic drag, removing weight from the vehicle, reducing driveline drag, etc. They need to use everything they can in order to meet CAFE.

I agree that a diesel engine is unlikely, but with every other automaker moving towards more speeds in automaker transmissions, Toyota can and should follow.

 

[Jayhawk5G]

The V8 would make a good option for ANY of the 3 TR models, I think it'd be fairly priced at 800-1000 bucks over the V6.

I'd really want a V8. Not really holding my breath for a diesel. Won't happen. Ever.

I agree about offering the V8 as an option.

I'm sure there are plenty of people who may have considered 4Runner, but due to lack of a V8 purchase Grand Cherokee.

It's also a way to add value to the loaded models like Limited/TE Premium, especially if it's only an option on the already loaded models.

To those that think it would steal sales from the GX460, every review I have read seems to feel the V8 in the GX460 is underpowered compared to the competition, so bump power to approx. 350-360hp for the GX, and give us a T4R with 315-320hp.

 

[4RBob]

I have had 3 Toyotas now. I'm hesitant in switching to the 2014. I really want the option of a diesel. Otherwise there's no reason part with my 2006. Although the grand Cherokee is making take a double take.

Just take a look at the price you have to pay for one of those diesel Grand Cherokees. First, it is not available on the Laredo trim, only Limited and up. Second, the diesel engine is a $4,000 INVOICE option. Then, you have to get the Luxury package to get the diesel, which is another $3,500 INVOICE. I priced out a diesel Grand Cherokee Limited with the better 4WD system and it was about $46,000 INVOICE.

 

[Jayhawk5G]

Just take a look at the price you have to pay for one of those diesel Grand Cherokees. First, it is not available on the Laredo trim, only Limited and up. Second, the diesel engine is a $4,000 INVOICE option. Then, you have to get the Luxury package to get the diesel, which is another $3,500 INVOICE. I priced out a diesel Grand Cherokee Limited with the better 4WD system and it was about $46,000 INVOICE.

Don't forget about reliability. Every morning I drive past the Jeep dealer on my way to work, and see the line of new Grand Cherokess... I do double takes as well until I start to think about reliability. Jeep has a great looking vehicle, but the build quality is not up to par with Toyota, and the reliability is not there either.

 

[Testerdahl]

I have had 3 Toyotas now. I'm hesitant in switching to the 2014. I really want the option of a diesel. Otherwise there's no reason part with my 2006. Although the grand Cherokee is making take a double take.

Diesel is an interesting discussion for ALL Toyota products. Ford recently said NO to it in the F-150 and this is foreseeable for their SUV products as well.

I, personally, don't see Toyota doing it just yet. But, it is interesting to watch Chrysler-Fiat come out with all their diesel options. Although, their big reason isn't so much about customer demand it is MORE about meeting CAFE requirements and not paying fines.

-Tim

 

[Testerdahl]

They can increase fuel economy significantly:



Most estimates that I've seen have been less 10%. Whatever the figure is, every little bit helps. That is why automakers are working so hard at reducing aerodynamic drag, removing weight from the vehicle, reducing driveline drag, etc. They need to use everything they can in order to meet CAFE.

I agree that a diesel engine is unlikely, but with every other automaker moving towards more speeds in automaker transmissions, Toyota can and should follow.

Chrysler-Fiat is offering the 8-speed due to impending CAFE requirements. The truth with them is that they sell WAY too many Ram pickups and not nearly enough cars. They also don't offer an EV vehicle to build credits.

The facts are that Toyota gets so many credits through the Prius that they really don't need to improve many of their vehicles just yet. They will because who wants to pay fines, but they won't be early adopters like Chrysler-Fiat.

I also share some reservations on 8-speed transmissions and real-world FE. It sure looks great on paper, but I'm not sold it will work for every vehicle owner.

-Tim

 

[Testerdahl]

Just take a look at the price you have to pay for one of those diesel Grand Cherokees. First, it is not available on the Laredo trim, only Limited and up. Second, the diesel engine is a $4,000 INVOICE option. Then, you have to get the Luxury package to get the diesel, which is another $3,500 INVOICE. I priced out a diesel Grand Cherokee Limited with the better 4WD system and it was about $46,000 INVOICE.

There is a LOT of truth to this statement. For example, Ram is selling the idea that the diesel option on the 1500 is $2850 more. That is BS. It is $2850 more PLUS the Hemi 5.7 upgrade of $1,300. So, really it is a $4k upgrade.

Now, the Ram Hemi 5.7 is one of the most popular configurations, so most people will just see it as a $2,850 upgrade.

When you take a look at the ROI, it is way out like 5+ years out depending on fuel prices. The big benefits are low-end torque and towing. It is interesting that people think the 4Runner would sell well with a diesel. I would have never thought that until I came to this forum.

-Tim

 

[Testerdahl]

Don't forget about reliability. Every morning I drive past the Jeep dealer on my way to work, and see the line of new Grand Cherokess... I do double takes as well until I start to think about reliability. Jeep has a great looking vehicle, but the build quality is not up to par with Toyota, and the reliability is not there either.

That's my assessment too. Toyota vehicles may not be the "sexiest" choice, but unless they rust through - they will last for a long time.

-Tim

 

[1engineer]

Diesel is an interesting discussion for ALL Toyota products. Ford recently said NO to it in the F-150 and this is foreseeable for their SUV products as well.

I, personally, don't see Toyota doing it just yet. But, it is interesting to watch Chrysler-Fiat come out with all their diesel options. Although, their big reason isn't so much about customer demand it is MORE about meeting CAFE requirements and not paying fines.

-Tim

Exactly right. Other than enthusiasts very few in NA actually want diesel in current economic conditions. Enjoy the ride and we will follow you and read your article.

 

[LandCruiser]

The only way I'd buy a 4Runner with a diesel if the following criteria would be satisfied

a) fuel economy would be significantly increased to offset the higher cost of diesel
b) the truck wouldn't be much slower than the V6
c) torque around 375-400
d) diesel engine/tranny combo costs less than 2k premium

I don't think Toyota could really achieve ANY of the above, maybe b if it came with a decent turbo. It still might not be legal in Cali, and most 4Runner buyers wouldn't touch a diesel pump, nor would they care about the off-road/fuel economy benefits.

I bought a 6L V8 Sierra gas farm truck over a diesel because the fuel savings weren't there and the cost of the diesel with allison transmission was close to 8k over the price of a gas truck.

I think that Toyota is planning on winding down the 4Runner. BOF is unpopular to the current crossover saturated market segment.

I still think they need to kill the FJ and offer a cheap BOF 4x4 and fancy luxury BOF 4x4, both based on the 4Runner wagon body style. But the recent redesign/reboot seems to suggest they're trying to luxury the thing out of existence the way they have with the Land Cruiser/LX/.

 

[Quentin]

They can increase fuel economy significantly:

Most estimates that I've seen have been less 10%. Whatever the figure is, every little bit helps. That is why automakers are working so hard at reducing aerodynamic drag, removing weight from the vehicle, reducing driveline drag, etc. They need to use everything they can in order to meet CAFE.

I agree that a diesel engine is unlikely, but with every other automaker moving towards more speeds in automaker transmissions, Toyota can and should follow.

The 8 speed will increase fuel economy significantly on the conveyor belt, set-parameter EPA test... which is ultimately what matters for CAFE. Though, CAFE doesn't hurt or harm the consumer other than the cost of fines, potentially, being passed on to the consumer. How the vehicle functions in the real world and if those bumped up ratings really help the non-ideal-condition fuel economy is what truly impacts the consumer. Is an 8 speed well into diminishing returns land as far as cost and reliability? I think it is entirely possible. If the 5AT wasn't a good transmission, I'd be pushing a lot harder for more gears (moreso a new gearbox). As it stands, other than early software issues, it is quite smooth, efficient, and predictable. I've worked with these Toyota guys long enough to know that they don't make decisions willy-nilly. The process looks into every aspect (cost, user, reliability, etc) when deciding what to spec. The ultimate goal is to provide the best product for the best price. I don't think that a certain number of gears is absolutely required to give the best product. That is a marketing thing rather than an engineering thing.

The other thing to consider is that Jeep has to get their CAFE fuel economy numbers up on the Grand Cherokee because it is a substantial chunk of their overall volume. The 4Runner sells less in a year than the combined number of Prius and Corolla sell in a month. In CAFE math, the 4Runner just doesn't carry enough weight to really matter. Keeping the cost down on the 4Runner is likely TMC's goal considering how little it impacts CAFE, so the 5AT makes better business sense. Considering that 4Runners are sold on a reputation of reliability, maybe they are also hedging their bets that buyers will bet on a proven, reliable transmission than saving a few hundred bucks a year on a potentially unreliable 8-9 speed gear transmission.

It basically boils down to this. Toyota knows they want to sell X number of 4Runners a year. They have $yyyyyyyyy to develop the 4Runner. They spent a good chunk of that money updating the 1GR to the latest and greatest (sans direct injection... which I bet is coming), getting the new tech to the interior, safety upgrades, and upsizing the vehicle for more cargo space without substantially increasing weight or size. They saved money by not reinventing what wasn't broken (5AT, frame, axles, etc.). As long as they can sell the number of vehicles they need yearly to cover the R&D and manufacturing costs without slapping huge incentives on them, they've kept the 4Runner alive and likely to live for another generation.

 

[chmura]

Toyota has so many emission credits (from the EPA) that it will not affect them one bit if they put in a V8 in the 4runner, cafe standard wise.

 

[M1911]

When you take a look at the ROI, it is way out like 5+ years out depending on fuel prices. The big benefits are low-end torque and towing. It is interesting that people think the 4Runner would sell well with a diesel.

I bought my '03 new and have put 130k miles on it so far. I keep my cars a long time, so a 5-year ROI is not out of the question for me. Sure, I'd rather have a shorter ROI, but I'm spending close to $4k per year on gas. That's enough to get my attention.

I don't know whether a diesel 4Runner would sell "well", but I think it would sell well enough.

Mercedes sold about 39K MLs in the US last year. Certainly diesel-powered ML sales in the US were less than half of that total. And yet Mercedes still believes that is enough for them to make money. The Mercedes GL class sold even less last year (26k) and yet Mercedes still found a way to make money selling it with a diesel. The same is true for Audi (Q7, A8) and VW (Golf, Jetta, Passat, Touareg).

The unfortunate fact is that Toyota simply has not invested enough in the 4Runner to keep its fuel economy competitive. The 4Runner has many advantages, but it has fallen behind on fuel economy and, unfortunately, I expect that the upcoming 4Runner refresh will be just as lame as the Tundra refresh.

As for "unreliable" transmissions, the technology has been out there for a number of years and it works quite well. Mrs. M1911 has a 2010 C300 with about 30,000 miles on it. Certainly Mercedes doesn't have the reliability reputation of Toyota, but that transmission has been perfect. Toyota (and/or Aisin) can clearly build a reliable 7 or 8-speed transmission if they want to.

 

[philsey]

An 8AT?

So it can hunt from 5-6-5, or 6-7-6, or 7-8-7, or ?? ....... well you get the idea.

Thanks, but no thanks.

 

[M1911]

An 8AT?

So it can hunt from 5-6-5, or 6-7-6, or 7-8-7, or ?? ....... well you get the idea.

Thanks, but no thanks.

My wife's 7AT C300 doesn't hunt between gears.

The software controlling automatic transmissions has improved greatly over the years.