2018 ORP - Really not much ground clearance?

[rodralig]

Quick question to the more knowledgeable/experienced peeps in the group... So, I took a 1-day 4x4 class this weekend with my 2018 ORP (all stock BTW except for the tires - AT3W). Majority of my classmates are Jeeps, with only one that is really modified.

When we headed into the trail - man, lots of the bottom gets touched. There was even a slightly rocky trail where I feel that the scrapping the skid plate. But then, I look at the Jeeps in front of me - it looks like they are a bit higher!

I do know that airing down may lose me, say an inch! But even then, I should still have 8.6-inches of clearance, right? Yeah, having 2 adults and 2 kids as passengers may lower it more.

Okay - I would expect the side steps (4R is my wife's daily driver) would be a problem or that overhang in the rear hitch - but those between the tires? I have read that having KDSS lowers it by an additional inch - so, in effect, am only having 7.6-inch of clearance? Am I reading this correctly?

Now, I have headed into a few easy to low medium rated trails before; didn't run into this issue. Albeit, the class may have been a bit more technical than a simple sight-seeing trail.

Maybe time to add some RCI? Or get a lift and bigger tires? Albeit, I really don't need to spend if it is really not that necessary...

Thanks in advanced!!

 

[a47chuck]

Maybe time to add some RCI? Or get a lift and bigger tires?

Thanks in advanced!!

IMHO, A lift will get you room for taller tires, thus more clearance under the rear dif. That's gonna be your lowest clearance. That said, a lift will help clear the running boards. The boards will protect yer rear flairs from gravel. Bad side is, they get the back of yer pants dirty. LOL!

 

[rodralig]

That said, a lift will help clear the running boards.

Should I replace the boards with a slider instead? My wife told me that when she test drove the TRD - the slider that came with the demo was too high for her...

Or just remove the boards when going on more technical trails?

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[MAST4R]

Should I replace the boards with a slider instead? My wife told me that when she test drove the TRD - the slider that came with the demo was too high for her...

Or just remove the boards when going on more technical trails?

_

Here are a few tips:

You have advantages and disadvantages vs the Jeep, mostly the former.

1/ What pretty much nobody talks about is that your PRIMARY issue is NOT the clearance but the suspension. You need a stiffer suspension if you are to offroad faster or to drive harder stuff.

2/ The most value you will get from Bilstein 6112 with the STIFFER springs and in the rear you can use just 5100 if you will be going slow.

3/ Skid plates come after the shocks/springs. You may or may not need them. I still hit the front on occasion but that's chiefly because of speed.

0.5" more from tires is fine but not at all a big difference maker, 285s are pricier and more importantly MUCH heavier unless you like the LTC KO2 (which is fine).

You don't need a lift to fit 33 but I would get some if I am changing the suspension anyway. I would not go more than 2/2. And 1/1 is fine.

Yes, KDSS does eat a little ground clearance despite persistent claims to the contrary (yes, I have measured at the dealer).

You can do classic difficult trails (not hardcore) fully stock but you have to be really slow and really careful. Definitely slower than a stock Rubicon.

You will never get as much comfort on washboard or rutted stuff at speed with KDSS as you can without it. But KDSS is great in low range.

 

[rodralig]

Thank you for the response...

Here are a few tips:

You have advantages and disadvantages vs the Jeep, mostly the former.

You mean latter...? Or are you saying that I have more advantages than a Jeep?

1/ What pretty much nobody talks about is that your PRIMARY issue is NOT the clearance but the suspension. You need a stiffer suspension if you are to offroad faster or to drive harder stuff.

2/ The most value you will get from Bilstein 6112 with the STIFFER springs and in the rear you can use just 5100 if you will be going slow.

Really interesting perspective. I did find the suspension a bit soft for the technicality of the class. But then again, never realized that it was that soft because I never felt constrained in the few trails I have done.

3/ Skid plates come after the shocks/springs. You may or may not need them. I still hit the front on occasion but that's chiefly because of speed.

You can do classic difficult trails (not hardcore) fully stock but you have to be really slow and really careful. Definitely slower than a stock Rubicon.

You will never get as much comfort on washboard or rutted stuff at speed with KDSS as you can without it. But KDSS is great in low range.

Find below are snippets of the "hits" in the trail I did in class... (the Jeeps look like they have lots more clearance; compared to the attached pic in the OP)

In particular are the rocky trail - I tried to compensate as much with placement, ie., tires on rocks on just straddling the V... This is not a hardcore trail, but still... :cry2:

Based on this - recommend that I should have taken the trail slower than the Jeeps ahead? I tried to - but still got left behind once we got halfway.

Thanks in advanced.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOZywdM4L1I
<iframe width="1190" height="669" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/pOZywdM4L1I" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

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[RockyMtnT4R]

You did fine. :thumb3: The first dozen or so scrapes and bumps are always the most nerve-racking!

The stock tires on both vehicles are practically the same (1/4" advantage to the jeep). The two-door jeeps with their short wheel base will have considerably better breakover, and jeeps in general will have better approach and departure angles. But this is not to say that the 4Runner is a slouch!

Before worrying too much, keep in mind, you don't know how much scraping and bumping was going on under those other rigs!

Something that helped me when I started off roading (in a jeep none the less) was to spot while the wife drove so I could see the vehicle actually traverse the terrain. Something else that helped me was becoming familiar with the underside of my rig... and also what it was I was scraping/hitting. Crawl under your T4R and look for the scratches and scrapes (hit them with a little rustoleum while down there). It won't take very long and you will begin to "see" the lines based on the rocks, etc. on the trail and the low points of your rig. Many T4R owners will tell you the gas tank is a rock magnet!

For instance, a jeeps front differential is towards the driver's side, while the rear differential is dead center, oh and they have ridiculously low hanging rear shock mounts just to the inside of the rear tires. Why is this important? I hit every one of them multiple times until I learned to negotiate the trail and avoid this "low hanging fruit". It just takes practice.

 

[MAST4R]

Things are always rougher in person, but that's a standard trail (I have 254 trail runs in the 4R in under 4 years).

Your suspension is the problem because it is far too soft and so your front especially dives over everything there is from individual rocks to dips to drainages. I bet you are hitting the front plate.

You have two choices. A specialty valved big shock and soft spring (pricey) or any quality factory valved shock with a stiffer spring (see my signature for best value). For the rear suspension, you can start with just a Bilstein 5100 if you intend to remain mostly slow (totally enough if you will be driving with Jeeps; not enough if driving with me.

It is a very good idea to first accumulate experience stock but if you are going to be doing it in groups, slowing the others down is an issue.

The reason to start slowly/stock is to see for yourself exactly what? how? why? I see far too many people with grotesquely overbuilt rigs who can't really drive and think they need 37s on a Rubicon for a moderate trail, LOL.

Two thumbs up to you for getting out and starting to use the rig! It is the ultimate Swiss knife. You will love it.

Just don't follow the herd. Do only things you understand why you do and how they help. Especially don't follow Jeepers advice about mods. Their rigs are different.

For rock sliders...very rarely needed but when they are, you absolutely want to have them. You can do without if you will not be driving difficult rated trails.

But even so, steps are worthless. There are many moderate desert trails that will destroy the steps. No need to get on a hard one for that to happen.

Btw, another vulnerable spot is the lower rear pax side control arm bracket, Total Chaos and RCI sell skids for those (pairs, but it is the pax side that takes the biggest hits ime).

The rear LCA are themselves upgradable but the bracket skids are really impo. Among the other skids, careful with the gas tank skid for two things: first must have solid front lip (not the old RCI design, the new looks good as well as C4 or Shrock) and must have air between skid and gas tank bottom so verify after install and thereafter periodically).

 

[a47chuck]

Or just remove the boards when going on more technical trails?

Lose the boards. Doesn't look like yer worried 'bout rock chips anyways. They make great shelves in the garage, too. LOL!

 

[DAW89446]

Maybe it’s me, because I’m old. I just don’t see the need for speed when crawling along a difficult trail. I’m of the old school. Low range and locked in 1st going through a technical section. And years of off road driving has taught me tire placement by feel. I seldom have used a spotter, they distract me.

I’ve never had a lifted vehicle. I’d have everything from a 1970 Ford F-250 4x4, to my current ‘18 SR5. All stock suspension, all stock size tires.

My priority is overall value. I know my 4Runner isn’t made to do Moab trails at speed. I have no desire for a rig that can do that. So there is no need for me to turn my stock rig into a Frankenstein, along with the price tag up front and the price tag in the future in high failure rate of parts and diminished overall drivability day to day. I’m sure there’s someone with talent that could turn a Lincoln Town Car limo into a Moab rock crawler, but what’s the point? My 4Runner can do the trails I want to take, yet it can run down the highway comfortably, quietly and smoothly when the wife and I with another couple go to a city two hours away for some fine dining. And I’ve used it as a tractor in developing my acreage by dragging out sagebrush and driveways. I tow a utility trailer and haul a ton of heating pellets once or twice annually. It is stable in the deep ice and snow on the unplowed country dirt roads where I live. And the list goes on. It’s versitle.

I’ve had acquaintance with others who spent $$$$ above the $$$$$ sticker of their rigs in lifts and all sorts of off road bling. All of them spent $$$$ in repairs before their rigs turned over 75,000 to 90,000 miles. One even finally gave up after his second engine and second transmission in his 2011 Rubicon with only 90,000 miles. All were surprised and jealous that I spent $0 in repairs to my bone stock 2002 Tacoma TRD, even though it now has over 200,000 miles (I gave it to my 44 year old son when I bought the 4Runner). We all took the same routes through some difficult eastern California, Nevada and Death Valley trails over the decades. That truck was like a Timex watch - it took a licking but keeps on ticking. It’s even been on its side (a badly eroded shelf road caved in underneath me).

Some may think my 4Runner is just a pavement troller, until they notice the deep pinstriping, then notice the skid plates. But my experience of where to put my tires has kept the rest of the undersides unmolested. I know my 4Runner has limits, but I accept that and have a lot of fun within those limits. And I don’t have to spend an additional dime.

 

[rodralig]

Lose the boards. Doesn't look like yer worried 'bout rock chips anyways. They make great shelves in the garage, too. LOL!

Yup! Not worried about those...

My priority is overall value. I know my 4Runner isn’t made to do Moab trails at speed. I have no desire for a rig that can do that. So there is no need for me to turn my stock rig into a Frankenstein, along with the price tag up front and the price tag in the future in high failure rate of parts and diminished overall drivability day to day. I’m sure there’s someone with talent that could turn a Lincoln Town Car limo into a Moab rock crawler, but what’s the point? My 4Runner can do the trails I want to take, yet it can run down the highway comfortably, quietly and smoothly when the wife and I with another couple go to a city two hours away for some fine dining. And I’ve used it as a tractor in developing my acreage by dragging out sagebrush and driveways. I tow a utility trailer and haul a ton of heating pellets once or twice annually. It is stable in the deep ice and snow on the unplowed country dirt roads where I live. And the list goes on. It’s versitle.

....

Some may think my 4Runner is just a pavement troller, until they notice the deep pinstriping, then notice the skid plates. But my experience of where to put my tires has kept the rest of the undersides unmolested. I know my 4Runner has limits, but I accept that and have a lot of fun within those limits. And I don’t have to spend an additional dime.

I absolutely agree with you! That is my take on this 4Runner.

But it concerned me that even if this trail is not supposed to be too technical (it should mirror the usual trails out there) but I was scraping bottom... The limitation is way more than I expected.

Again, if I could get by without any $pend, I am all for it...

Things are always rougher in person, but that's a standard trail (I have 254 trail runs in the 4R in under 4 years).

That is why I am surprised. This should be a standard trail of what is expected out there - but I am touching bottom.

Your suspension is the problem because it is far too soft and so your front especially dives over everything there is from individual rocks to dips to drainages. I bet you are hitting the front plate.

A lot!!!

You have two choices. A specialty valved big shock and soft spring (pricey) or any quality factory valved shock with a stiffer spring (see my signature for best value). For the rear suspension, you can start with just a Bilstein 5100 if you intend to remain mostly slow (totally enough if you will be driving with Jeeps; not enough if driving with me.

Thanks! I will check it out...

It is a very good idea to first accumulate experience stock but if you are going to be doing it in groups, slowing the others down is an issue.

I mean - if you check out the video, I got left by stock Jeeps! *LOL*

The reason to start slowly/stock is to see for yourself exactly what? how? why? I see far too many people with grotesquely overbuilt rigs who can't really drive and think they need 37s on a Rubicon for a moderate trail, LOL.

I would agree. We have had this 4Runner for about 3 years now and have taken it to a few trails with no issue. Again, I felt that stock should be capable with the average runs. But this class, in spite of it being not too technical, highlighted limitations that I wasn't aware of. It is a bit disconcerting.

Btw, another vulnerable spot is the lower rear pax side control arm bracket, Total Chaos and RCI sell skids for those (pairs, but it is the pax side that takes the biggest hits ime).

I did a check of the underbody this morning. Skids, well, yeah, lots there... Then this bracket/brace under the driver side (I don't know which part this is) -

and then the rear engine cover assembly -

The rear LCA are themselves upgradable but the bracket skids are really impo

Let me check up on the bracket skids. Thanks!


_

 

[AggieOE]

I have both a Jeep and 4Runner and the Jeep rubbed a lot when it was stock. The belly on a stock Rubicon is not very high off the ground and the break-over sucks since the wheels are pushed as far forward and backward as possible.

Like said above, wheel a bit stock and you'll know what you need.
I put a small lift on both vehicles and it's made a world of difference.

Swapping to the Bilstein 5100s with cornfed spacers helped dramatically. The shocks on the front removed the nosedive and extreme motions when coming off a ledge. I also set mine to 1.75" in the front with a 1.5" spacer in the rear. The added clearance and fewer motions are a night and day difference. No need for anything expensive that requires more maintenance. Keep it simple.

 

[rodralig]

I have both a Jeep and 4Runner and the Jeep rubbed a lot when it was stock. The belly on a stock Rubicon is not very high off the ground and the break-over sucks since the wheels are pushed as far forward and backward as possible.

Like said above, wheel a bit stock and you'll know what you need.
I put a small lift on both vehicles and it's made a world of difference.

Swapping to the Bilstein 5100s with cornfed spacers helped dramatically. The shocks on the front removed the nosedive and extreme motions when coming off a ledge. I also set mine to 1.75" in the front with a 1.5" spacer in the rear. The added clearance and fewer motions are a night and day difference. No need for anything expensive that requires more maintenance. Keep it simple.

Thanks! Yes, absolutely keep it simple. The more simple it is - less maintenance, and hassle. At the very least, this is still my wife's/kids' daily driver...

That said - looking through the responses above, I would think the best bang for my buck right now are upgraded suspensions to mitigate the "softness" (nosedives) of the stock suspension and adding a bit more clearance.

... I just don't know where to begin. What configuration/setup should I start with? Wanting to maintain the tire size for now (just replaced it a month back) - and something not too extreme, looking to recommendations?


Thanks!


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[Gclark949]

When my 2016 with KDSS was stock I found it very difficult to not hit the undercarriage over very simple trails. A small lift with stock tire size made all the difference. Strangely, looking at the front drive line it is perfectly straight after the lift. This tells me it was intended to be higher from the factory by design but for other reasons it was lowered by about 1.5 inches.

 

[honda250xtitan]

doesnt matter what you do, youre gonna always drive to it's limit. so do you wanna spend money or naw. My front skid plate has new bashes from this weekend. i'm running kings and 33's. I could add long travel, guess what, i'll still bottom it out only i'll be doing 70 instead of 60 lol

 

[honda250xtitan]

When my 2016 with KDSS was stock I found it very difficult to not hit the undercarriage over very simple trails. A small lift with stock tire size made all the difference. Strangely, looking at the front drive line it is perfectly straight after the lift. This tells me it was intended to be higher from the factory by design but for other reasons it was lowered by about 1.5 inches.

i think i read on here years ago toyota did that for rollover stuff? i know they shorted the steering radius as well.

 

[2021nightshade4x4]

i think i read on here years ago toyota did that for rollover stuff? i know they shorted the steering radius as well.

Is that why in literally every other vehicle you can turn the steering wheel 1-and-a-half turns before you hit the locks and these 4 runners only let you get 1-and-a-quarter?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[honda250xtitan]

Is that why in literally every other vehicle you can turn the steering wheel 1-and-a-half turns before you hit the locks and these 4 runners only let you get 1-and-a-quarter?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

right? it gets me every time still.

 

[AggieOE]

Thanks! Yes, absolutely keep it simple. The more simple it is - less maintenance, and hassle. At the very least, this is still my wife's/kids' daily driver...

That said - looking through the responses above, I would think the best bang for my buck right now are upgraded suspensions to mitigate the "softness" (nosedives) of the stock suspension and adding a bit more clearance.

... I just don't know where to begin. What configuration/setup should I start with? Wanting to maintain the tire size for now (just replaced it a month back) - and something not too extreme, looking to recommendations?

Thanks!

_

Our 4Runner is my wife's DD as well our primary travel rig.

As such, I stand firm that the Bilstein 5100s + a rear spacer is the best bang for your buck, specifically 5100s set at 1.75" in the front with either a 1.25" or 1.5" spacers in the rear.
Since springs rarely deteriorate with time, replacing the shocks with adjustable firmer ones will make you very happy.

Also, as mentioned above, with a small lift the CV axles are actually now level. With a 1.5" rear puck, there is less rake than stock but enough that you can load up the rear with kids, dogs, and luggage and not have a reverse rake.

 

[Jetboy]

KDSS with OEM skid plate on flat concrete floor with a laser level. KDSS is not the low point. If it lowers ground clearance, there must be more than one version of it. Or some different setup that's changed since mine was made. Because it clearly isn't the low point on my 4runner. The low point in front is the cross member that's the same on all 4runners.

A small lift really helps up front for clearance. I would look for something relatively soft valving wise to pair with KDSS. KDSS is pretty firm stock. I'm not sure a digressive shock like the 5100 is the best combo with KDSS. I think they'd pair better with the small sway bars on an SR5. Eibach has the same shock IIRC with progressive dampening that might feel a bit less harsh. Everyone likes different ride though. Depending on budget, the 6112 Bilstein front shocks are a nice upgrade over the 5100. I don't know how the valving compares.

Fox also makes a lower cost circlip 2.0 shock that's about $500 for the pair. My guess is that they're relatively plush and progressive valved. But I don't know anyone who's used them.

 

[mrblah]

KDSS with OEM skid plate on flat concrete floor with a laser level. KDSS is not the low point. If it lowers ground clearance, there must be more than over version of it. Because it clearly isn't the low point on my 4runner. The low point in front is the cross member that's the same on all 4runners.

A small lift really helps up front for clearance. I would look for something relatively soft valving wise to pair with KDSS. KDSS is pretty firm stock. I'm not sure a digressive shock like the 5100 is the best combo with KDSS. I think they'd pair better with the small sway bars on an SR5. Eibach has the same shock IIRC with progressive dampening that might feel a bit less harsh. Everyone likes different ride though. Depending on budget, the 6112 Bilstein front shocks are a nice upgrade over the 5100. I don't know how the valving compares.

Fox also makes a lower cost circlip 2.0 shock that's about $500 for the pair. My guess is that they're relatively plush and progressive valved. But I don't know anyone who's used them.

i think the confusion is that some aftermarket skidplates manufactures made KDSS skidplates that hung lower, and the internet took that one single data point and misinterpreted as all kdss vehicles have lower ground clearance....