3rd Gen vs 2nd Gen?
- Thread starter Dementedfish
- Start date
T4R2014
Elite Member
Yeah, it seems that the early 90's was a tricky time for head gaskets. I think it was new laws during that time that were banning asbestos from head gaskets. That is why MKIII Supra's and 1FZ Land Cruiser's often have head gasket trouble.
Very early 5VZFE's had head gasket trouble, like 95.5' to early 97' at most and it was on a very small scale since my 96' never got any notices for the recall. I remember seeing a pdf of the recall years ago, but I never saved it. :frusty: I am pretty sure it was a head bolt torque, but don't quote me on this.
98OzarksRunner
New member
I had a 92 with a bad head gasket at 80K, and Toyota repaired it free in 97. The dealer said Toyota changed the head gasket design because of failures. My last 95 had a head gasket go bad at 137K, in 2007. It seeped anti-freeze on the rear of the drivers side. It WAS a PITA to change that thing out, and the biggest problem was the exhaust crossover pipe. I cursed Toyota engineers every minute it took me to change that (and it was a LOT of minutes). It is a very hard engine to work on, at least in the truck. The recall/warranty repairs didn't cover any 95s (I checked before changing it out).
The worst part of the 3vze is all the coolant lines on the intake manifold/throttle body, that all dry-rotted within about 6 months of each other (change them ALL when the first one goes bad), and they are also a PITA to change out.
KidVermicious
New member
its an '01 thing
I don't think it is, my '99 has auto up and down on both sides?
My '99 too, as well as an auto-open sunroof (because seriously, if you're opening it, you're almost certainly opening it all the way!)
Here in the salt belt, where they put old car killer salt out on the roads all winter long, it's very rare to see a 2nd gen without rust holes on the body. And while the 3rd gens are a bit newer, they're still not that new any more, and it's very rare to see a 3rd gen with any visible rust on the body at all (tin-foil bumpers aside, heh). They very significantly improved the rust proofing.
As already mentioned over and over, the 3.0 is slow and not nearly as reliable. Perhaps it can last forever with very careful care and feeding, but the 3.4 seems to last even with neglect and abuse. And the 3.4 also has enough power to move the truck at a decent traffic-matching clip.
The 3rd gens are also much smoother and quieter on road. Better sound insulation, more power, better steering, it's just a nicer place to spend 12 hours a day in during a road trip. And it's safer. The 2nd gen's just an old truck, built without any real safety concerns in mind. The 3rd gen was redesigned with safety in mind. I'm not sure if it had to meet passenger car safety regs when it was new, but it seems like it was designed to. It and the Land Rover Disco were the best rated SUV's in the mid 90's (there were some real freak shows - looking at you GM and Isuzu).
All this, and it's every bit as good off road as the 2nd gen is. Neither are as good as the lighter, nimbler 1st gens on a trail, but the 3rd gen didn't lose anything while adding all the road manners. Actually, bone stock, the 3rd gen is probably a little better. Add the factory locker and it's a lot better.
KidVermicious
New member
You know the difference between a 1st gen 4Runner and a 2nd gen 4Runner? One has a removable hardtop and leaf springs in the rear, the other has a four doors and a link suspension in the rear. Other than that, they're practically identical, and equally as adept on the trail. A stock 3rd gen takes a very slight hit in that department, being five inches longer (plus or minus, depending on year), four inches wider, a little bit higher (though with slightly less ground clearance), and about 200 pounds heavier. After you factor all the weight from the additional soundproofing and interior refinements in the 3rd, it's easy to see that they had to cut corners somewhere, so it's a fair bet that the 3rd is not quite as rugged as the 2nd, although I think you'd have to drive several trucks of each model several times across Africa to notice the difference. My point is, folks see those four doors and boring body lines and don't understand that the 2nd gen is every bit the offroader that the 1st gen is, and the myth that the third gen is somehow better than either is poppycock perpetuated by the hordes of 3rd gen owners that dominate this board
. All three early 4Runner models are close enough that once you start talking about elockers and other offroad mods, all bets are off of course.
I'm not sure where you're getting those numbers from. The earlier 3rd gens were 2 inches longer than the second gen, not 5 inches. The base(r) 3rd gen models are the exact same width as the 2nd gens, some models are wider, but that's in the flares and wheels department, it's not a fatter body. The couple of hundred pounds is def. true though. No way around that, door beams, airbags, sound deadening.
E-lockers are factory equipment, it's not a mod, so it's fair game!
E-lockers are factory equipment, it's not a mod, so it's fair game!
KidVermicious
New member
But it's not standard factory equipment, so up yer nose with a rubber hose!
I pulled those numbers off the Wikipedia article, where'd you get yours?
I pulled those numbers off the Wikipedia article, where'd you get yours?
Same place! It's confirmation bias! Heh.
The length of the first versions of the 3rd gen, before they got the fat lip bumper for crash ratings, was 178.7 inches. The 2nd gen went between 176 and 176.8 inches. So about 2 inches longer. Very little of this was added front or rear overhang, because the wheelbase went up to 105.3 inches from 103.3, exactly 2 inches. Now sure, in theory, 2 extra inches of wheelbase worsens the breakover angle, but in reality, it seems like most 2nd gens (in stock form) sit significantly lower than most stock height 3rd gens. Well, at least until you get into the 00-02 versions, dumped down a bit because consumer Reports scared everyone about autocrossing in your SUV.
Width in the 2nd gen is 66.5 inches. Width of the 2WD 3rd gen (without the fender flares or wider tires) is 66.5 inches. So the bodies themselves are no wider at all. It's just on the 4WD models - especially the limiteds with the fat fender lips, that the width goes up to 70.9 inches, 2 inches of added tire width on both sides. So not a fatter/wider body, just more tire poking out. Given the way most people tend to modify their trucks, it's hard to say that wider tires make it worse off road - or pretty much everyone is doing it wrong!
And 200 lbs, like I said, right on the nose. But it does bring plenty of benefits with it.
Yeah, the e-lockers are rare. I had to look around for 4 months before finding a manual trans/e-locker combo for sale.
Still, in utterly stock trim, I think your average 3rd gen will have a higher ride height and bigger tires on it.
I'll freely admit that:
- I'm thinking mostly of the -85 first gens when i say they're better off road - solid front axle
- my driving impressions of 2nd gens is limited to test driving maybe 3 or 4 of them over the years. And most of them were higher mileage and somewhat neglected cars
The length of the first versions of the 3rd gen, before they got the fat lip bumper for crash ratings, was 178.7 inches. The 2nd gen went between 176 and 176.8 inches. So about 2 inches longer. Very little of this was added front or rear overhang, because the wheelbase went up to 105.3 inches from 103.3, exactly 2 inches. Now sure, in theory, 2 extra inches of wheelbase worsens the breakover angle, but in reality, it seems like most 2nd gens (in stock form) sit significantly lower than most stock height 3rd gens. Well, at least until you get into the 00-02 versions, dumped down a bit because consumer Reports scared everyone about autocrossing in your SUV.
Width in the 2nd gen is 66.5 inches. Width of the 2WD 3rd gen (without the fender flares or wider tires) is 66.5 inches. So the bodies themselves are no wider at all. It's just on the 4WD models - especially the limiteds with the fat fender lips, that the width goes up to 70.9 inches, 2 inches of added tire width on both sides. So not a fatter/wider body, just more tire poking out. Given the way most people tend to modify their trucks, it's hard to say that wider tires make it worse off road - or pretty much everyone is doing it wrong!
And 200 lbs, like I said, right on the nose. But it does bring plenty of benefits with it.
Yeah, the e-lockers are rare. I had to look around for 4 months before finding a manual trans/e-locker combo for sale.
Still, in utterly stock trim, I think your average 3rd gen will have a higher ride height and bigger tires on it.
I'll freely admit that:
- I'm thinking mostly of the -85 first gens when i say they're better off road - solid front axle
- my driving impressions of 2nd gens is limited to test driving maybe 3 or 4 of them over the years. And most of them were higher mileage and somewhat neglected cars
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I recalled reading articles stating that the then-new 3rd gen 4Runner's were a bit lighter, than the comparably equipped 2nd gen 4Runners. Which was one reason for their better MPG. So I looked at a couple brochures I have to confirm.
Comparing the curb weight for a 2nd gen '95 SR5 4wd V6 W/manual trans at 4105 lbs. And a GVWR of 5400 lbs
Vs
My 3rd gen '97 SR5 4wd V6 W/manual trans with a curb weight at 3850 lbs. And a GVWR at 5250 lbs.
A difference in curb weight of 255 lbs for comparably equipped 4Runners.
I received the recall notice for potentially bad headgaskets on my '97 5VZ-FE. It was for 5VZ-FE's from inception to early '97. It had instructions to call with your VIN, to determine if your 4Runner was affected. My 7/21/97 build 4Runner was built late enough in the year, that it didn't fall into the affected vehicle time-frame.
Back in '93, I was going to buy a 4Runner, but it was lacking in legroom. So I ended up in a '93 SR5 extra cab pick up, instead. It had a bit more legroom.
So for me, I would never buy a 2nd gen 4Runner, simply because of the lack of legroom.
Comparing the curb weight for a 2nd gen '95 SR5 4wd V6 W/manual trans at 4105 lbs. And a GVWR of 5400 lbs
Vs
My 3rd gen '97 SR5 4wd V6 W/manual trans with a curb weight at 3850 lbs. And a GVWR at 5250 lbs.
A difference in curb weight of 255 lbs for comparably equipped 4Runners.
I received the recall notice for potentially bad headgaskets on my '97 5VZ-FE. It was for 5VZ-FE's from inception to early '97. It had instructions to call with your VIN, to determine if your 4Runner was affected. My 7/21/97 build 4Runner was built late enough in the year, that it didn't fall into the affected vehicle time-frame.
Back in '93, I was going to buy a 4Runner, but it was lacking in legroom. So I ended up in a '93 SR5 extra cab pick up, instead. It had a bit more legroom.
So for me, I would never buy a 2nd gen 4Runner, simply because of the lack of legroom.
98OzarksRunner
New member
This is true. The 2nd gens definitely have less leg room, both front and rear. The front seats on the 2nd gen are smaller as well. For me, they have a tighter and more secure feel, but if you weighed 200+ lbs, it would be a real tight fit. Headroom is bad in both.
My 2nd gens were also a lot 'choppier' to ride in off-road. The 3rd gen is much less fatiguing after a long day on the trails. Riding in a 2nd gen off-road is like riding on a navigation buoy in a hurricane (well, almost
).
SCRunner12
New member
Having owned both go with the 3rd gen. As mentioned the motor is much better and the whole vehicle is just more refined. They are more expensive, but it's worth it. I could have lifted, locked and armored my 2nd gen for the difference I paid for my 3rd gen, but it still wouldn't have been worth it. My 3rd drives so much smoother, more power/MPG and the option for a supercharger if you ever wanted. You will not regret it and the resale is so much better.
Scramble
New member
So is mine, '99
Atrox Caeda
New member
I consider there to be really like 3.5 Generations to consider if we are starting from 2002 going back to 84. The Solid axle 1st gen. The EFI Solid axle 1st gen. The IFS 1st gen. The 2nd gens. The 3rd gens.
Atrox Caeda
New member
Also consider if you don't have Auto up and down windows on both sides; you're signature should not read "Fully Loaded." Rather maybe like... partially loaded, or mostly loaded... or loaded enough. Maybe like 10 rounds instead of 17 loaded. California Loaded!
I bought my 97 with around 173k and at 174k the headgasket went. I don't know if the precvious owner had overheated the 5vzfe or what. I ended up replacing the engine with JDM. Anyway to find out about the recall on head gaskets?
Although I'm guessing my jdm motor vin is different then the actual vin of car. But the engine could have been from a newer car, either a van, or a 4runner or Tacoma. I highly doubt it was from a 4runner, since it had a different.oil pan and I think lines for rear ac or heat. So I'm aiming towards a Toyota van
Scramble
New member
Haha, it is auto up & down both sides. My 2001 Accord EX Coupe is only one side. That's what I must have been thinking of.:clap2:
T4R2014
Elite Member
Driver and passenger auto-down is a 1999 update.
Toyota 4Runner History 1999
I'm pretty sure that the recall was over quite a while ago. Any 95.5-97 5VZ head gaskets failures happening now are caused sheerly by age.
slimboiphat
New member
I currently own both 2nd (94) and 3rd gen (00) 4runners. The word "refined" is probably the best way to describe the 3rd gen compared to 2nd. Like folks have covered already, acceleration is so much smoother, and ride is much more comfortable. 2nd gen feels more rugged and heavier to maneuver. I suspect that's the gap between technology in 1994 and 2000.
I'm taking a stab at 3rd gen now because of its potential for modding. However, I will miss my fold down tail gate in 2nd gen. It's such a great way to use it as a bench and chill. I will probably also miss the built quality on 2nd gen too. Sheetmetal on 2nd gen feels much more solid and little things like the weatherstrips around each door feels better protected.
The things I won't miss on 2nd gen are probably like the leg room on both front and back (i'm about 6'2), and slow 3.0 acceleration. You learn to teach yourself to turn away when folks are tail gating you from the line.
I'm taking a stab at 3rd gen now because of its potential for modding. However, I will miss my fold down tail gate in 2nd gen. It's such a great way to use it as a bench and chill. I will probably also miss the built quality on 2nd gen too. Sheetmetal on 2nd gen feels much more solid and little things like the weatherstrips around each door feels better protected.
The things I won't miss on 2nd gen are probably like the leg room on both front and back (i'm about 6'2), and slow 3.0 acceleration. You learn to teach yourself to turn away when folks are tail gating you from the line.
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The recall notice I received was mailed out not long after I bought my '97 brand new in 1997. The 5VZ-FE Headgasket recall campaign ended long ago.
