3rd Gen vs. 5th Gen
- Thread starter JohnsD90
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BlairB
New member
This thread = :redbrick:
IF the 3rd gen had ATRAC, KDSS etc... it would be better off road due to its smaller size and better approach/departure/breakover angles. But sadly, it does not have those.
There should be know doubt that a Trail 5th Gen will be better off road than stock 3rd gens (although a highlander wont be THAT far off). A locked, KDSS and ATRAC will get you very far.
A little story about ATRAC for me. I do not have a stock rig, but I was wheeling with a modified 3rd. We were both roughly the same height with the same tires and neither of us had lockers. We came to one section that I led through, I put it in 4lo, locked the center diff and made it through with very little issue due to the engagement of my ATRC. The 3rd gen tried to follow but was unable to due to their lack of ATRAC, and we had to find another route.
It had nothing to do with lines, you put your tires in these ruts on a rock face and literally only had a few inches right/left for your tires, so we were taking the same line. Also, the speeds were the same, you would roll up the hill, then when your front tires hit one section you got more aggressive on the throttle. No matter driver skill, the 3rd gen could NOT make it up since it did not have ATRAC.
Also, another thing to mention. With me there were also 2 other 4 gens. One made it through, one did not. The one that made it through was lifted and had the same tires and the 3rd gen and I and the one that did not was not lifted and had stock tires. Even the non lifted 4th gen made it past the point that stopped the 3rd gen cold in its tracks though. If the 4th gen had been equipped in the same way as the rest of us, there is no doubt he would have made it through.
So tell me John- how worthless is this feature?
And as for "how many trucks in King of the Hammers run with Traction Control?". How can you honestly compare king of the hammers to a 5th gen? Do they have front and rear lockers? Yes. If you had front and rear lockers do you need ATRAC? No. But does ATRAC do a decent job in lieu or paired with a rear locker? You bet it does. If you disagree, you really need to good familiarize yourself with the technology behind this a little more and also spend some more times on the trail.
IF the 3rd gen had ATRAC, KDSS etc... it would be better off road due to its smaller size and better approach/departure/breakover angles. But sadly, it does not have those.
There should be know doubt that a Trail 5th Gen will be better off road than stock 3rd gens (although a highlander wont be THAT far off). A locked, KDSS and ATRAC will get you very far.
A little story about ATRAC for me. I do not have a stock rig, but I was wheeling with a modified 3rd. We were both roughly the same height with the same tires and neither of us had lockers. We came to one section that I led through, I put it in 4lo, locked the center diff and made it through with very little issue due to the engagement of my ATRC. The 3rd gen tried to follow but was unable to due to their lack of ATRAC, and we had to find another route.
It had nothing to do with lines, you put your tires in these ruts on a rock face and literally only had a few inches right/left for your tires, so we were taking the same line. Also, the speeds were the same, you would roll up the hill, then when your front tires hit one section you got more aggressive on the throttle. No matter driver skill, the 3rd gen could NOT make it up since it did not have ATRAC.
Also, another thing to mention. With me there were also 2 other 4 gens. One made it through, one did not. The one that made it through was lifted and had the same tires and the 3rd gen and I and the one that did not was not lifted and had stock tires. Even the non lifted 4th gen made it past the point that stopped the 3rd gen cold in its tracks though. If the 4th gen had been equipped in the same way as the rest of us, there is no doubt he would have made it through.
So tell me John- how worthless is this feature?
And as for "how many trucks in King of the Hammers run with Traction Control?". How can you honestly compare king of the hammers to a 5th gen? Do they have front and rear lockers? Yes. If you had front and rear lockers do you need ATRAC? No. But does ATRAC do a decent job in lieu or paired with a rear locker? You bet it does. If you disagree, you really need to good familiarize yourself with the technology behind this a little more and also spend some more times on the trail.
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LINY4Runner
New member
It bothers me slightly that some people feel that electronic traction systems are the only way to clear an obstacle.
Never once have I been stuck to the point where I said to myslef, "damn, I wish I had ATRAC right now". A locker? sure! Everyone wants a locker, but that's not some ECU using the pedals for you.
I wonder...what did everyone do before all these electronics came out? Did they just bypass the rocks or did they man up and clear the obstacle?
Where was this trail? I wanna run it with my 3rd Gen...
I just changed my vote from the 5th gen side to the 3rd gen. I feel that all these electronics have and will continue to dumb everyone down. I've run blacks with red lines with all my traction systems off, open diffs, IFS and no armor. If he couldn't make it, it's driver error, not the truck.
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Thai
Elite Member
Hey, you're back!! I'm still waiting for you to back up some of your "claims" that you were "walking around all the FJ's with their ATRAC and lockers." How did you do it?
ATRAC is far from an "ECU pushing the pedal." ATRAC is INDIVIDUAL control of each wheel to allow for power to flow to the wheel(s) with the most traction. You can't accomplish ATRAC with brake pedal application. You knew that already because you have an '01 4runner, right???
Before these electronics, real off-roaders buy lockers and limited slip differentials. Sure, you can run open diffs on trails, but you won't get very far on a real off-road terrain (not just washboards or dirt roads) and you just piss off the folks behind you for holding up the line!
When did you even vote for the 5th gen? That is news to me!
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Thai
Elite Member
I do think that the 3rd gen was the best midsize SUV back in the day...that was why i bought one!
It was tough, reliable, and capable off-road. (However, even at that time, 3rd gen was not the best on-road.) You guys are talking about 2 generations later here...and with Toyota now focusing on off-roading again with the FJ experiment and now the 5th gen, it is OK to say that the 5th gen is better on-road and off-road than a 3rd gen. It is not an insult because you're talking about 2 generations of evolution.
LINY4Runner
New member
Hey, you're back!! I'm still waiting for you to back up some of your "claims" that you were "walking around all the FJ's with their ATRAC and lockers." How did you do it?
ATRAC is far from an "ECU pushing the pedal." ATRAC is INDIVIDUAL control of each wheel to allow for power to flow to the wheel(s) with the most traction. You can't accomplish ATRAC with brake pedal application. You knew that already because you have an '01 4runner, right???
Before these electronics, real off-roaders buy lockers and limited slip differentials. Sure, you can run open diffs on trails, but you won't get very far on a real off-road terrain (not just washboards or dirt roads like I do with my bada55 G wagon) and you just piss off the folks behind you for holding up the line!
When did you even vote for the 5th gen? That is news to me!
Oh right...my "claims"...
if you watch the following video from the FJ piney run I was referring to, you'll see at 1:25 a heavily modded FJ cruiser with ATRAC activated and stuck on the hill climb.
at 1:31 you can see my 4Runner with open diffs, disabled traction control and someone who knows how to wheel walking up the hill.
and again at 2:00 a yellow FJ attempts the climb, but doesn't make it. he was on 35's too.
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HOW did I do it? I did it by using my common sense combined with my wheeling experience and I climbed the hill.
Just for someone to insist that these electronic aids are CRUCIAL to clearing an obstacle is absolutely absurd.
I know how ATRAC works and not because I have an 01 4Runner, but because I'm an ASE and Toyota factory certified technician.
Oh yeah, here's those washboard dirt roads you were talking about...
Is that real enough for you? I'd love to see the Sienna do that...
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Thai
Elite Member
Liny...fine, you're a good driver, but that does NOT mean that equal drivers will take more advantage of the traction aids. Yeah, greenmonster can outwheel my grandma with a Jeep Rubicon, but that is not a valid comparision, right? For you, an "experienced" off-roader, to discount ATRAC or locker is hilarious.
Hawkdog21
New member
This thread is getting silly.
My 3rd gen rollin on 35s and double locked could do anything I threw at it. I did lower 2 at tellico with no assistance, and if you know anything about 4wheeling in the south east you know what lower 2 is.
That being said, I now own a 2010 Trail Edition. It is a much nicer truck is every aspect, this being my 3rd runner and the fact that the only car I have ever owned was 4runners I will consider myself very knowledgeable on all things 4runner.
If I had to do everything all over again, I would make a 3rd gen a dedicated trail rig due to the simplicity of the truck and its small size, but for mild 4wheeling and daily driving I will take my 5th gen any day of the week.
My 3rd gen rollin on 35s and double locked could do anything I threw at it. I did lower 2 at tellico with no assistance, and if you know anything about 4wheeling in the south east you know what lower 2 is.
That being said, I now own a 2010 Trail Edition. It is a much nicer truck is every aspect, this being my 3rd runner and the fact that the only car I have ever owned was 4runners I will consider myself very knowledgeable on all things 4runner.
If I had to do everything all over again, I would make a 3rd gen a dedicated trail rig due to the simplicity of the truck and its small size, but for mild 4wheeling and daily driving I will take my 5th gen any day of the week.
Duhockey
Senior Member
Isnt the point of ATRAC to give you better "TRAC"tion??? (I guess Atrac is an epic fail)
yeah, your fancy schmancy technology means nothing when it hasnt been proven. All it does is sell people on spending money on "the latest and greatest" technology when what they have works just fine.
LINY4Runner
New member
I guess it's not apparent in the video. The black one is running 285/70/17 KM2 and the Yellow one is running 35x12.5 KM2.
ATRAC slowed them down if anything...I pleaded for one of them to turn it off, but they refused.
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LINY4Runner
New member
Don't get me wrong, I love the 5th Gen and I DO think it's a worthy heir to the 4Runner name. I believe if you look at the whole picture, compare the entire 3rd Gen to the entire 5th Gen, the 5th takes the cake. But for sake of off road capability I will stand by the 3rd Gen and it's numbers, it's simplicity and it's legacy.
I'd even go out on a limb to say if you took a '99 Highlander and a '10 Trail that they would be pretty evenly matched given the same trail with the same lines and the same driver and spotter. I feel the Highlander would even go further, mostly because there's less guilt involved with beating around a 10 year old truck than it is to beat a 10 week old truck. I think the lack of traction assistance is an advantage, especially for a driver who knows what he's doing. But keeping all things constant and using the vehicle as the only variable, I would say they'd be pretty evenly matched. Time will ultimately tell.
I just don't like comments such as BlairB's where people become dependant upon the electronics and insist that a certain obstacle is impossible without a certain electronic traction device. If you truly believe that, you shouldn't be wheeling.
I'll be attending the East Coast 4Runner Jamboree, and hopefully there'll be a 5th Gen or two who would be willing to go trail-for-trail with me to really put this issue to the test. That'd be something, huh?
I'd even go out on a limb to say if you took a '99 Highlander and a '10 Trail that they would be pretty evenly matched given the same trail with the same lines and the same driver and spotter. I feel the Highlander would even go further, mostly because there's less guilt involved with beating around a 10 year old truck than it is to beat a 10 week old truck. I think the lack of traction assistance is an advantage, especially for a driver who knows what he's doing. But keeping all things constant and using the vehicle as the only variable, I would say they'd be pretty evenly matched. Time will ultimately tell.
I just don't like comments such as BlairB's where people become dependant upon the electronics and insist that a certain obstacle is impossible without a certain electronic traction device. If you truly believe that, you shouldn't be wheeling.
I'll be attending the East Coast 4Runner Jamboree, and hopefully there'll be a 5th Gen or two who would be willing to go trail-for-trail with me to really put this issue to the test. That'd be something, huh?
steezemcqueen
Moderator
agreed
Video Evidence
3rd Gen= 1
5th Gen= 0
ouch! :lol: << *just bought a 3rd gen highlander edition*
BlairB
New member
I am sorry that you don't like my comment, but you can not argue with the facts. Same line, same tires, roughly the same amount of lift and due to my ATRAC I made it up the section and the 3rd get could not make it up. I am relying on a traction device yes, but is relying on a locker- another type of traction device that much different? No.
And yes, this obstacle is not passable without a traction device, I am sorry if you have a problem with that, but it is a fact. You have your back tires in a thin layer of sand over rock and one of your front tires in the air. If you had a locker could you make it? Definitely. If you have ATRAC could you make it? Definitely. Can you make it unlocked and without ATRAC? No. The section is very narrow and there is only one line that you can take.
If you think you can make up ANY obstacle that a vehicle with a traction device can, but you can do it unlocked, I am sorry but you have placed too much faith in either your abilities or your vehicle. If that is the case, what is the point of a locker or traction device at all?!
And don't try to say I am dependent upon my electronic devices. It was a section that needed a traction device, simple- it could be ATRAC or a locker. Simply put, having ATRAC is better than not having ATRAC, that is it. I truly fail to see how you can argue against that.
The point I am making is simple, it is that ATRAC is not "worthless" as some have claimed earlier in this thread. So do not try to make claims about my intentions. Lockers beat ATRAC all day long. But do you think Toyota would really invest in such a technology and spend the money to put it on vehicles if it is "worthless"?
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Duhockey
Senior Member
The answer is twofold- its not worthless, but hyped... its the same illusion that people that have 4wheel drive think when they are driving in snow... :lookout: that I have something that is better than it actually is.
why do they say with "ATRAC" cuz it sells more cars. So yes, they will hype something like Atrac and convince people it does all these cool things to "sell cars"
Im gonna exaggerate a little here and say ATRAC is like the spoon in the Matrix, it has all these cool features but doesnt exist! at least not the way that people think it does.
Thai
Elite Member
THEN, those FJ drivers need to spend more time off-road to know how to use their vehicles. Simple. I have watched countless vehicles spin their open diffs to no avail, while a FJ with locker/ATRAC makes it up without issue...or even GX470 making it up.
The fact of the matter is that ATRAC and lockers are proven technologies off-road. If you don't believe it, then consider that all modern 4x4s, including H1, came with ATRAC.
Duhockey
Senior Member
You guys are trying really hard to defend this ATRAC thing... Its a little suspicious dont you think?
Im gonna go ahead and put ATRAC on the list with Elvis, Tupac, the JFK assassination, the moon landing, 9-11 and all the other conspiracies that Thai would fight to the death over!
I think we all concur that this ATRAC thing is just something Thai made up in his head! its alright! :bigok:
:jk:
sorry, I just got carried away by this thread!! LOL
Thai
Elite Member
And yet, i have a full set of lockers too...so, why would i defend ATRAC if i did not think that it works off-road??
The fact that you criticize it so blindly tells me that you really do not have a clue...and just bashing something that you are truly afraid of.
