4.5L Twin Turbo Diesel for 2020?

[epjfsa]

Not really, especially if you a) realize the name of the source was listed before we redacted it, b) Toyota already makes this engine for other markets, c) there's a global effort to nix the Land Cruiser, in which case you could make an argument for turning the current 4Runner platform into the Land Cruiser, by offering a higher-trim/suspension/engine version in 2020+, d) the CAFE standards only apply across averages, so if they keep selling more hybrids and plug-ins they'd get there, e) competitors sell diesels, f) they could make a lot of money selling it.

Of course we all know everything will be electric one day. But that day is still 10-15 years off.

FWIW, they aren't just subject to CAFE, but also greenhouse gas standards. Despite the fuel economy advantage of diesel, it has a higher carbon content per-gallon than gasoline meaning it really has no regulatory advantage at the end of the day. (this is a bit simplified, but they will only bring a diesel to market if there's demand)

they're actually in process to relax cafe standards and undo that rule
https://www.epa.gov/regulations-emi...ordable-fuel-efficient-safe-vehicles-proposed


we're still not getting a 4.5L diesel in the 4runner and the other thread's source doesn't actually know anything (i bet it's a random sales person or something)

Not happening, at least any time soon. It will be in litigation for years, so automakers will plan products under the assumption that the current standards will hold.

My prediction is the next 4runner will get some mass reduction, a modest reduction in drag (e.g. latest jeep), an improved transmission (8 speed?), and an up-tuned version of the Taco's NA 3.5L V6 and eventually a hybrid option (the extra torque would be great in an SUV like the 4runner). I would be shocked if they consider a diesel engine because it's simply too expensive.

 

[Big_Cuss]

I dunno... the 5th gen has a pretty doggone-massive hood opening area. There's a ton of space in there compared to past cars I've owned.

 

[tls3601]

Yea that’s not true at all. The 200 is every bit a land cruiser

I disagree, no solid front axle: NOT a Land Cruiser. That said last Landcruiser here in the US was the 80 Series. Nothing against IFS but no way as rugged as a solid front axle. Period

 

[Bumbo]

I disagree, no solid front axle: NOT a Land Cruiser. That said last Landcruiser here in the US was the 80 Series. Nothing against IFS but no way as rugged as a solid front axle. Period

I will agree that SA is more rugged, but the rest of what you said is more of an opinion…

Yes the 80 was SA, but that does not make the newer LC, not a LC. Different design for a modern time… personally I like IFS, and if I was buying an LC, would want IFS. The chassis and everything about it is still a LC.

Even if I bough a desert race truck, like a Ultra 4 buggy to race KOH, I would absolutely get IFS. For where I go, deserts, I just like it more.

I am not against SA, but it's not the answer for everything.

 

[tls3601]

I agree there are some advantages of IFS but not durability. Ever try and change a front tire with IFS? Have to lift it to the moon! Yes the 200 Series is very well made, but I think everything is made cheaper these days. Yes, even Toyota.

 

[Jeffy]

It'll definitely never happen, however the rating of 480 ft/lb of torque on that engine has me dreaming... The only way I'd ever even consider buying a different 4Runner is for a diesel version.

 

[KSWAY]

4Runner will be rocking the 4.0 for another 10 years

 

[wfo9]

I don't think the diesel could happen. It would be too expensive to get it to pass US emissions. and if they did.. it would not be ideal.

There was a figure on the Tacoma mentioned by the chief engineer of 5k+ per unit just to recover R&D costs. That was using an engine they already had. Consumer cost would have to be at least 8k more than a petrol engine from Toyota.

Does anyone here who wants a diesel own a modern one that is all plugged up with DPF, EGR, SCR.

I have an 8.9L cummins. It's a great engine and makes gobs of torque and is a great workhorse engine for a big rig. But that is the key. It needs to be working hard all the time to be reliable. If it idles or does light city driving.. it plugs up and has to constantly regen. If you don't know what DPF is go read up on how they work. It is a nightmare unless you have good steady load conditions (like big rigs). Now delete is always an option and works great... but there goes your warranty and who is going to spend 10k more on a truck putting it into the 60k+ range and void the warranty and pollute the environment. Diesles are extremely dirty, it has nothing to do with carbon. It's the soot and the danger to humans not the environment. It puts off a class 1 carcinogen without DPF.

Oh yea, and all DPF systems have a limited life before replacement cleaning is required. It's rated usually 200k or so, but in a car that drives city and idles you would be lucky to make 100k on a v8. The smaller the engine the better for the reliability in terms of diesel. So the little 4 would work OK, but that would be no fun for power.

Diesels are not what they used to be and not what they are overseas.

For the 4runner. the ideal engine IMHO would be a turbo 4 or 6 petrol.

 

[Ramrod88]

I don't think the diesel could happen. It would be too expensive to get it to pass US emissions. and if they did.. it would not be ideal.

There was a figure on the Tacoma mentioned by the chief engineer of 5k+ per unit just to recover R&D costs. That was using an engine they already had. Consumer cost would have to be at least 8k more than a petrol engine from Toyota.

Does anyone here who wants a diesel own a modern one that is all plugged up with DPF, EGR, SCR.

I have an 8.9L cummins. It's a great engine and makes gobs of torque and is a great workhorse engine for a big rig. But that is the key. It needs to be working hard all the time to be reliable. If it idles or does light city driving.. it plugs up and has to constantly regen. If you don't know what DPF is go read up on how they work. It is a nightmare unless you have good steady load conditions (like big rigs). Now delete is always an option and works great... but there goes your warranty and who is going to spend 10k more on a truck putting it into the 60k+ range and void the warranty and pollute the environment. Diesles are extremely dirty, it has nothing to do with carbon. It's the soot and the danger to humans not the environment. It puts off a class 1 carcinogen without DPF.

Oh yea, and all DPF systems have a limited life before replacement cleaning is required. It's rated usually 200k or so, but in a car that drives city and idles you would be lucky to make 100k on a v8. The smaller the engine the better for the reliability in terms of diesel. So the little 4 would work OK, but that would be no fun for power.

Diesels are not what they used to be and not what they are overseas.

For the 4runner. the ideal engine IMHO would be a turbo 4 or 6 petrol.

Or the 4.6 from the gx460 that should be offered already


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[blanchard7684]

yeah count me out on any modern epa-goverened diesel.

SCR and EGR are a no -go.

 

[Flighht2k]

I disagree, no solid front axle: NOT a Land Cruiser. That said last Landcruiser here in the US was the 80 Series. Nothing against IFS but no way as rugged as a solid front axle. Period

This is 100% opinion. Just giving a blank statement of a sfa being stronger is ignorant.

 

[wfo9]

This is 100% opinion. Just giving a blank statement of a sfa being stronger is ignorant.

True, as a blanket statement it is not correct, BUT Given the same amount of money invested. SFA will be several times stronger. Anyone who has spent a significant amount of time offroad has seen it over and over.


Now with an unlimited budget.. you can make IFS work. Same with IRS, but it is just not practical for the long run for most extreme offroad durability scenarios. If IFS was so inherently durable on a drive axle, everyone would just be producing IRS rears on trucks. And they don't for the same reason that SFA is inherently stronger.

There was even a guy in the southern rock bouncer series who ran IFS and IRS for a season or two. I think he still has IFS (went to a solid rear). It has pros and cons like everything else. But bang for the buck, you just can't beat the durability of a solid axle.

 

[Flighht2k]

True, as a blanket statement it is not correct, BUT Given the same amount of money invested. SFA will be several times stronger. Anyone who has spent a significant amount of time offroad has seen it over and over.





Now with an unlimited budget.. you can make IFS work. Same with IRS, but it is just not practical for the long run for most extreme offroad durability scenarios. If IFS was so inherently durable on a drive axle, everyone would just be producing IRS rears on trucks. And they don't for the same reason that SFA is inherently stronger.



There was even a guy in the southern rock bouncer series who ran IFS and IRS for a season or two. I think he still has IFS (went to a solid rear). It has pros and cons like everything else. But bang for the buck, you just can't beat the durability of a solid axle.

No. A Dana 44 on a wrangler will never be as strong as a hmwwv ifs or pinzgauer ifs.

 

[vondy21]

My prediction is the next 4runner will get some mass reduction, a modest reduction in drag (e.g. latest jeep), an improved transmission (8 speed?), and an up-tuned version of the Taco's NA 3.5L V6 and eventually a hybrid option (the extra torque would be great in an SUV like the 4runner). I would be shocked if they consider a diesel engine because it's simply too expensive.

I agree with this 100%. 3.5 from Taco, hopefully tuned better, and 8 speed transmission. Hybrid version makes perfect sense. Basically same setup that is already in the Highlander.

If they did go with a diesel option, which I doubt, it would be more like a 3.0 eco diesel like in a RAM, F150, VW, etc.

 

[Thrasher_S]

I just don't see a diesel playing nice with the American market. The opinion, in general, of diesels is just different here. They are great for working vehicles (trucks, tractors, big rigs, buses...) but not passenger cars. I am of the opinion that hybrids and electrics are going to be much bigger than anything else soon anyway (having driven a Tesla P100D, bring on the electrics!)

Besides, these things are mall crawling grocery getters for ... is it safe to say the majority? ... of buyers. For every Runner driver who would actually benefit from a torque monster diesel there are a dozen who won't. Doesn't the 5th gen already limit torque to protect the driveline?

The 5th Gen is already WAY overkill for a lot of owners, who would be better off with a Highlander or a minivan. I'm far more worried the 6th gen is going to be LESS capable, not more.

 

[WindyCity4Runner]

yeah count me out on any modern epa-goverened diesel.

SCR and EGR are a no -go.

My wife's car is a 2014 Mercedes ML350 bluetec with the 3.0 liter turbo-diesel. It makes about 210HP but has around 400 lb-ft of torque. The ML and my 4Runner are about the same size. On the highway, her ML gets about 30mpg while I am lucky to get 20mpg in my 4Runner.

The Mercedes OM642 engines have a sludging problem so I change the oil every 3k miles in the winter and 5k miles in the summer. I do all the work myself and it's about $100 each oil change. 9 qts of oil at right around $10/qt. Price out 229.52 oil if you're bored.

The Diesel Exhaust Fluid is surprisingly not that expensive - I think I bought 5 gallons for $40. I still have 2.5 gallons left. It doesn't use enough DEF to be noticeable.

You have to keep clean air filters on the engine or it causes engine issues. I tried the generic filters but they cause a CEL so you have to use the genuine Mercedes air filters (yes, there are two) that cost another $100 every year.

All the money I thought I would save with her driving the diesel is gone with the oil changes. It's a miserable engine to work on and I groan every time I lift the hood.

The only time this engine is worth the pain and money is when you go to pass someone. With 400 lb-ft of torque, the engine doesn't downshift, you just whooooosh past them.

But Blanchard is right - although the new common rail diesels are more efficient and powerful than they were in the past, the EPA rules in place mean that (at least for the Mercedes) the engine life is sacrificed to protect the emissions equipment. The Mercedes is only at 60k miles but I can see the iceberg dead ahead with this one. I'll have traded it in and put my wife in a Toyota or Lexus by the end of the year. Toyota would have to play by the same rules if they brought a diesel to the US and I'm betting they can see it's a loser's game.

 

[fng184r]

I would like to see the smaller deisel from the prado come over. Hopinh for more than that is more than wishful thinking.

As far as the 80/200 legit LC or fake debate goes, my feelings are people are misconstruing the purpose of a land cruiser. The reason most of the world buys a land cruiser and their true purpose is they are designed to drive on minimally maintained roads of the developing world for decades without rattling themselves apart and doing so with minimum maintance. For that the 200 is great.

If the majority of the buyers like governments of these countries, the UN and others cared extreme approach and departure angles and about how easy it was to lift it 12" and put it on 40s they would be snapping up wranglers by the freight container.

People arent buying a 70 series in most cases because its got a solid axle and is easy to mod, its because its cheap and wont fall apart. They buy a cloth interior 200 series because it is nicer to drive than a 70 but wont fall apart driving down those same sorry ass roads and through the same dust and muck.

 

[Engineer]

I disagree, no solid front axle: NOT a Land Cruiser. That said last Landcruiser here in the US was the 80 Series. Nothing against IFS but no way as rugged as a solid front axle. Period

Looks like Toyota does not agree with you :dance:

 

[dylanoclark]

Whoa! The future could be exciting...

 

[Jeffy]

Whoa! The future could be exciting...

Lol don't count on it. Prepare to be extremely underwhelmed by the 6th gen whenever it's released