4WD vs 2WD

[NickF]

The 4wd is great. I use it in heavy rain, in snow and.obviously for mild off-roading

Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk

 

[theizzardking]

you guys have to admit in the CO and here in the WA 2wds are just a joke really, on perfectly dry days and clear trails the 2wd can keep up, but where i live that's a rare occurrence, it's almost always wet,muddy and sloppy on the trail, heck even going over some small rocks can be a problem when it's wet and in a 2wd, in places like texas and so cal i can see 2wd being just fine, i mean most dune runners/desert racers are anyways right?

but personally for where i live i wouldn't even consider a 2wd, there's a good chance for a few months out of the year your 2wd SUV will be parked in the garage while your getting a ride from your buddy in a subaru and how embarrassing is that, lol

i thought Georgia was meant to have some famous mud at least that's what i got from my cousin vinny, lol, anyways, you most likely won't be driving through snow to often but ask yourself about mud and if your the type who is outdoors often enough to require the use of 4wd,personally I'm in the mountains about 45+ weekends a year and can't even get out of my neighborhood during the winter without it.

personally just becuase of the things i do i would never own a 2wd but you should just ask yourself if you foresee the need for it and if so go for it, the extra cost ,weight and maintenance issues raised above are so minimal over the life of the vehicle it's hardly worth mentioning imo, but then again i have never owned anything but 4wd's so take that for what you will.

 

[Mauzer]

Heavy rain?

I don't understand.

What does 4WD buy you in rain, presumably on paved roads?

I have the multi-mode transfercase so I use the AWD (4hi w/o center diff locked) feature in heavy rain to keep traction

 

[theizzardking]

Hmmm... let's see what the cost difference actually is before making a conclusion.

~$2,000 initial cost + ~$2,000 maintenance cost + ~$1,000 gas cost + ~$0 resale/tax tradeoff = ~$5,000 for 4WD versus 2WD.

Let's assume a 10 year life span before you give the car away to your college kids (I've never sold a car in my life so that's realistic for me) or before you sell it (options generally net you about the same as the 10% tax you paid on them, ten years later) so I netted out the resale value with the initial tax.

1. INITIAL COST:
I heard above that 4WD is a "couple thousand" more than 2WD.
Assuming that, and California 10% sales tax where I live, that's ~$2,200 more initially but then you get back for any option ten years later about what the sales tax was, so, let's call that an even ~$2,000. (We can probably ignore the loss of potential investment returns on that lost $2,200 in today's market.)

2. MAINTENANCE COST:
I have no idea what the maintenance cost difference is so I'll throw out a number and you guys can correct it if it's way off. I'll guess that oil changes, routine maintenance outside the drive system, and additional maintenance on the drive system all are slightly more expensive. Let's say 10% more expensive. Assuming ~$2,000 a year in maintenance costs, that nets to about $200 a year additional maintenance cost. Over ten years, that's another ~$2,000 (I think maintenance services aren't taxed in California so I won't add 10% to that figure).

3. GAS COST:
The 1997 Toyota 4Runner 2WD (which is what I have) has a combined MPG figure (Gas Mileage of 1997 Toyota 4Runner 2WD) of 19mpg.

The 1997 Toyota 3Runner 4WD has a combined MPG of 18 mpg.
(Gas Mileage of 1997 Toyota 4Runner 4WD).

At an average of 12K miles per year, that 1 mpg difference comes out to only 35 gallons a year.

The average price of gasoline in San Jose 95110 (where I live) is $3.20/gallon (San Jose Gas Prices - Find Cheap Gas Prices in California).

So the 1 mpg costs a bit more than ~$100/year in increased gasoline, so over the ten-year lifetime, that's another ~$1,000 (taxes included).

4. RESALE VALUE:
The resale value of almost any option is about the same as the 10% tax you initially paid for that option so I'll net that out to zero. Additionally, in California (where I live), you also pay a property tax on that option, every single year, for the entire ten years you own it, but, I'll just net that out to zero also for ease of computation.

SUMMARY:
So, the costs of 4WD over 2WD in ten years appear to be roughly about $5,000 in toto if my math and assumptions are anywhere near indicative.

The question then would become (assuming my math is sound) ...

Is $5,000 for 4WD over 2WD worth it to you in your situation?
(each of us would need to answer that individually based on our assumptions

Note: resale value for ANY option on a 10-year-old vehicle is negligible and is therefore not factored in; but if it were, it would be on the order of magnitude of the initial taxes on that option so I removed taxes).

lol all of the above is funny, the only extra maintenance would be t-case fluid
every 3-4 years, oil changes and the rest are exactly the same, and to be honest the 4wd system in my truck had never been serviced before i received it and 10 years later still works perfect, for the most part the 4wd systems in these trucks are hassle free, just check the fluid every now and again and top up as needed. the only real maintenance besides adding/changing a $10 bottle of case fluid every year or 2 is really nothing, 1 tow out of a snow bank or a mud pit will cost you at least $100, so that's 10 years worth of maintenance right there.

i don't care about the tax thing that has nothing todo with the difference between the 2 trucks for normal people.

mpg's- your talking the difference of 1 mpg, i'm sorry but you can lose that difference on a windy day or if you had a big lunch, or gain it back pretty easily by taking the roof rack off, 1 mpg isn't anything to cry about....

5K in total operational and purchasing costs i think is ludicrous.

most of the time the difference in price is about 1K for the 4wd over the 2wd, and i get that, but once you've purchased the truck i really really don;t think it's going to cost him 4K more over the life of the truck....

and even then @5K your talking an extra $24 a month over the life of the truck....

is it just me or does this seem a little crazy?

 

[Martinjmpr]

Hmmm... let's see what the cost difference actually is before making a conclusion.

Your numbers are way, way waaaaaaay out of line.

* Initial cost? Here in CO there are very few 2wd 4runners (for obvious reasons) but those areas that have lots of 2wds also have a lower number of 4runners overall, making them more desirable and thus, more expensive. IOW, the difference in initial cost is not likely to be as great as $2k. From what I've seen, on this forum and elsewhere, it's $1k, maybe $1.5k tops, assuming similar miles and a similarly equipped vehicles (i.e., it makes no sense to compare a 4wd V6 limited with 104k agains a a 2wd I-4 base model with 180k.)

Ultimately the additional cost becomes a wash because you would likely get it back when you sold it.

* $2,000 a year on maintenance? What are you doing, burning through a transmission every year? :wtf:

Assuming 12,000 miles/year, and assuming you change your oil every 3,000 miles (not neccessary, I think the actual interval on the T4R is 5,000) that's 4 oil changes a year. Call it $30 a pop. Throw in 2 tire rotations at another $30 (even though both of these things can be done by anyone with a driveway and a basic set of tools for a lot less.) Total maintenance costs are $180. Where on earth are you getting $2k in annual maintenance? It's a Toyota, not a BMW.

"additional maintenance?" I've been driving 4wd vehicles since 1979. There's no "additional maintenance" other than the occasional fluid change, but the intervals on those are in the 100k range - certainly not something you'd be doing annually.

* MPG: You have to compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges. A 3.4 auto will get worse MPG than a 2.7 MT. Still, you're talking about a negligible difference. $100/year is nothing in terms of cost (that's less than $9 a month.) Stretching it out over 10 years makes it sound like a lot but it's still $9/month. Most people will spend more than that on coffee at Starbucks.

In terms of money the only real difference between a 4wd and a 2wd is in the initial cost. It is a difference of $1000 - $1500 and most (if not all) of that difference will be recouped at the time the vehicle is sold (and note that it is much much much MUCH easier to sell a 4wd 4Runner than a 2wd one.)

Don't get me wrong, if 4wd is not a neccessity then there's no point in getting it.

Having said that, I, personally, see no point in a 2wd 4runner. If I decided, for whatever reason, that I didn't need 4wd, I'd get a different vehicle, probably a station wagon or CUV. No need to have a top-heavy, body-on-frame truck when a smaller, lighter, quicker, more fun car could fulfill my needs just as well.

 

[TheDurk]

So, the costs of 4WD over 2WD in ten years appear to be roughly about $5,000 in toto if my math and assumptions are anywhere near indicative.

The maintenance costs are severely over-stated. There is no price bump charged or deserved on shorter interval services (<15k) as there is no additional labor or supplies other than 2 zerks to grease on the front diff. shaft. My dealer charges a fixed package for 30k service that is the same for 2WD or 4WD. I, however, do my own maintenance, and at 131k miles that comes to a grand total of about 16 quarts of gear oil for the TC and front diff or maybe $150 over 11 years.

If the 4WD components break, in the vast majority of cases you are left with a fully functional 2WD vehicle. In my case, total repairs over 11 years come to $3 for a generic vacuum check valve replacement. I will assert that major repairs to 4WD components will only happen under driving conditions that no 2wd would even think about attempting, and so cannot really be considered in a marginal cost analysis. The gas number of 1mpg may be overstated because of rounding (I am guessing that 1mpg is actually a 0.5-1.4 range) but is probably not far off.)

You cannot discard the resale value so cavalierly. He has to PAY a few thousand more BECAUSE the option has value, today, ten years or so after it was made. It will still have value when he resells it. In fact, when 3Gens are nearing fifteen and twenty years old, I will assert that people will ONLY want them for off-road capabilities and 2WD's will sell at an even greater discount.

I bought a 4WD 4Runner because I wanted snow, sand, and mud capability. If I didn't need those, a 2WD 4Runner would not have been on the short-list. In 2WD, mine won't go uphill on short wet grass. I'd hate to have a 2wd off-road in the conditions I use mine in. If you really will only leave the asphalt for dry dirt terrain, then I'd agree with buying 2WD. Otherwise, 4x4 is the way to go. I'd accept cosmetic defects first to get it.

You really only need to think about the upfront cost, the additional resale value will cover your fluid changes and probably half the gas if you keep the truck five years. Call it $50 a year at most. You'll save more from not going at all to places you can't get to.

 

[RonMAIDEN]

The only extra maintenance my 4wd receives over a 2wd is the extra diff and transfer case fluids replacement and I use synthetic and change them at about 40k which for me is about every 4 years otherwise all my other maintenance items would be shared with a 2wd.

I admit you probably will see more wear and tear if you are actually leaving the pavement but that is the cost of the hobby but if it's strictly for on road use then the wear and tear is pretty much the same wether it's 2 or 4wd.

I also wonder the percentage of 2wd owners that actually are modding enthusiasts wish there rigs had 4wd or started with a 4wd in the first place since no matter how much you mod the 2wd you will hit a wall where a 4wd truck will still get more out of less mods.

 

[cj80cruiser]

Wow. I want to live in the utopia you live in.

Out here, in San Jose, oil changes are $100.

If you change it yourself????
In fact, to confirm, I called the local Toyota dealership on Stevenscreek Blvd in San Jose, (Bay Area Toyota - Stevens Creek Toyota in San Jose, CA, 408-516-4039) and spoke to the service department manager about expected repair costs for my 1997 4Runner.

An oil change (he called it the "5K mile interval oil change") is $97.55 (presumably that comes with the filter). So that's $200/year on oil changes alone at the dealer.

A brake job sans rotors/drums is $400/axle. If you add rotors/drums, it's an additional $250/axle he said, so a four-wheel brake job with rotors/drums is going to be around $1,300.

His standard belt job (timing belt, drive belts, and water pump) is $995.

To all that, probably add 10% tax (I didn't ask about tax but it's at the punitive level here in California).

I forgot to ask Stevenscreek Toyota about the mandatory smog tests, so I called the nearby Capital Toyota in San Jose (775 Capital Expressway & Auto Mall Parkway, San Jose, CA 95136-1125, 408-267-0846) who said it's $89.95 for the basic smog test - and they don't even check safety things like other states do ... they just check smog and that's it (you can have bald tires and cracks across your windshield and worn out brakes and you'd still pass).



Ooops. I forgot to ask Toyota for the price for rotations (and they got impatient with me for asking so many questions)

Imagine that, :lmao:


... so instead ... I called the 800-33-WORKS Wheelworks number for a quote on tire rotations and balancing and they said it's $20 to rotate all four wheels + $12.99 for balancing each wheel, for a total of about $75 for the job.

With shop rates between $100 and $200 an hour, I can't imagine it NOT costing $2,000 a year to maintain my new (to me) 4Runner. I'm very happy for you that you can do it for a fraction of that. But here, well, at least here in San Jose (where a 1,800 square foot house with 6000 feet of land easily costs $800K), nothing is cheap.

So I guess maintenance costs depends a LOT on WHERE you live.
AND what you're willing to do yourself

......

 

[RonMAIDEN]

Why go to the dealer for oil changes when most places like Brakes Plus will do an oil change for less than $30 or in my case I do them myself using M1 and a Puralator PureOne filter for about $30 every 8000 miles or 10 months.

I also buy all my tires at Discount which the rotations,repairs and balancing are all free after the purchase. I also use Brakes plus for brake jobs which cost me less than $250 for the fronts and that's using ceramic pads and with the rears I usually only have to change once in a 100k miles.

The timing belt/wp job with all associated seals and fluids ran me about $900.

Here in Colorado we have to get emissioned every two years and those are only about $25.

There are ways around costs if you look hard enough and not be aslave to the dealership. I have a local mechanic I've been going to since '98 and he does great work and keeps my costs down;heck I got an OEM starter installed ealier this year and it only ran me about $250 while the dealer wanted $400.

 

[cj80cruiser]

After being on this forum for a week or two, it seems I do ask DIFFERENT questions than most of you guys.
- Brake warp demystified (including the Tundra myth)
- DIY alignment demystified
- DIY clock repair demystified
etc.

Maybe I'm wrong ... but I put my math out there and I backed it up with phone numbers with dollar values so they can be verified by anyone at any time.

I can't imagine it NOT costing $2K/year for maintenance (this Toyota isn't my first vehicle ... although it's my first Japanese vehicle).

Every trip to the Chrysler dealer seemed to end up costing me over $1,000. I wish I lived where you guys live!

I agree with you mostly

I can say that there is no doubt in my mind that I do not spend $2000 a year in maintenance but my oil changes don't cost $100 a pop either......that's ridiculous!

 

[02SE]

Hmmm... let's see what the cost difference actually is before making a conclusion.



2. MAINTENANCE COST:
I have no idea what the maintenance cost difference is so I'll throw out a number and you guys can correct it if it's way off. I'll guess that oil changes, routine maintenance outside the drive system, and additional maintenance on the drive system all are slightly more expensive. Let's say 10% more expensive. Assuming ~$2,000 a year in maintenance costs, that nets to about $200 a year additional maintenance cost. Over ten years, that's another ~$2,000 (I think maintenance services aren't taxed in California so I won't add 10% to that figure).

In the thirteen+ years I've had my '97 4Runner, I've spent approx. $50.00 total on the extra maintenance required by the 4wd system. Which amounts to gear oil changes for the transfer case and front diff, and some grease for the zerk fittings in the driveshafts at each engine oil change.

That is taking into account the fact that I do all my own work, however.

 

[brian2sun]

Wow. I want to live in the utopia you live in.

Out here, in San Jose, oil changes are $100. In fact, to confirm, I called the local Toyota dealership on Stevenscreek Blvd in San Jose, (Bay Area Toyota - Stevens Creek Toyota in San Jose, CA, 408-516-4039) and spoke to the service department manager about expected repair costs for my 1997 4Runner.

An oil change (he called it the "5K mile interval oil change") is $97.55 (presumably that comes with the filter). So that's $200/year on oil changes alone at the dealer.

A brake job sans rotors/drums is $400/axle. If you add rotors/drums, it's an additional $250/axle he said, so a four-wheel brake job with rotors/drums is going to be around $1,300.

His standard belt job (timing belt, drive belts, and water pump) is $995.

To all that, probably add 10% tax (I didn't ask about tax but it's at the punitive level here in California).

I forgot to ask Stevenscreek Toyota about the mandatory smog tests, so I called the nearby Capital Toyota in San Jose (775 Capital Expressway & Auto Mall Parkway, San Jose, CA 95136-1125, 408-267-0846) who said it's $89.95 for the basic smog test - and they don't even check safety things like other states do ... they just check smog and that's it (you can have bald tires and cracks across your windshield and worn out brakes and you'd still pass).



Ooops. I forgot to ask Toyota for the price for rotations (and they got impatient with me for asking so many questions) ... so instead ... I called the 800-33-WORKS Wheelworks number for a quote on tire rotations and balancing and they said it's $20 to rotate all four wheels + $12.99 for balancing each wheel, for a total of about $75 for the job.

With shop rates between $100 and $200 an hour, I can't imagine it NOT costing $2,000 a year to maintain my new (to me) 4Runner. I'm very happy for you that you can do it for a fraction of that. But here, well, at least here in San Jose (where a 1,800 square foot house with 6000 feet of land easily costs $800K), nothing is cheap.

So I guess maintenance costs depends a LOT on WHERE you live.

They must see you coming a mile away! Your truck is almost 14 years old, there's no reason to have "premier" service only performed by a dealer to do that kind of basic stuff like Ron said. I do like the idea of OEM parts, but you can buy them (usually a lot cheaper on the web from places like trdparts4u.com) and then have anyone install them (or learn to do it yourself if you have the space). I wouldn't pay $100 for an oil change unless it was a naked girl doing it.

The price he gave you for brakes is on it's way to Pluto! But both the 2wds and the 4wds have 4-wheel brakes so the price isn't any different.

Timing belt, again just buy the OEM parts and have an indy shop install them for way less labor.

What does smog (and all these maintenance items) have to do with 2wd/4wd? I thought we were talking about additional maintenece for 4wds compared to 2wds. Anyways, all gas vehicles after '70 something must be smogged.

Rotation and balance.. $75?? Most places will do lifetime rotation and balance for free when you buy tires from them. Don't buy tires from the dealer!!!!!

$100/hr. is considered high for any region in CA. Most dealers in SoCal are $85-$115. Most indy shops are ~$60-85/hr.

 

[theizzardking]

.....a fool and their money are soon to be parted.......

i have nothing i can really add here, it seems as if life must be very hard and expensive for this person, my only advise on this mater is to do some comparison shopping and some cost analysis from different mechanics, there is a reason why we poke fun at dealerships and call them stealerships, they are over priced for every single service and part they provide, that said though there are just some jobs you don't want any monkey with a wrench doing and paying more in those cases is worth it, but for oil changes and simple things like fluid top-ups and changes are not it.:zoom:

 

[Nelsonmd]

After being on this forum for a week or two, it seems I do ask DIFFERENT questions than most of you guys ... but I AM inclined toward the DIY.

But, before you can do the DIY, you have to UNDERSTAND the problem you're solving!
- Brake warp demystified (including the Tundra myth)
- DIY alignment demystified
- DIY clock repair demystified
etc.

Maybe I'm wrong ... but I put my math out there and I backed it up with phone numbers with dollar values so they can be verified by anyone at any time.

I can't imagine it NOT costing $2K/year for maintenance (this Toyota isn't my first vehicle ... although it's my first Japanese vehicle).

Every trip to the Chrysler dealer seemed to end up costing me over $1,000. I wish I lived where you guys live!

Brian, you were right, it is kind of fun to sit back and watch the show...:snacker::bravo:

I want to hear more about $2k/year maintenance! Demystify it!

 

[legokcen]

In the thirteen+ years I've had my '97 4Runner, I've spent approx. $50.00 total on the extra maintenance required by the 4wd system. Which amounts to gear oil changes for the transfer case and front diff, and some grease for the zerk fittings in the driveshafts at each engine oil change.

That is taking into account the fact that I do all my own work, however.

Agreed for those of us who do our own work on our vehicles. I know not everyone has the capability and resources to do it, but I sure as heck enjoy it. If for no other reason than to learn more. I just removed the started a couple hours ago and pulled it apart and resoldered the solenoid connections. Cost to replace a starter ~$200 at a shop. Cost of repairing it yourself ~1.5 hours which also included cleaning up the underside a little while I was down there. I learned a heck of a lot about the starter system btw. That plastic connector had broken the wiring inside of it.

 

[Martinjmpr]

Well, I don't do my own maintenance and I pay way less than $2k annually for service. :shrug:

More to the point: What we are talking about is not maintenance cost per se, but the difference in maintenance cost between a 4wd and a 2wd. Mom seemed to imply that a 4wd would run you $~ 1 - 2k extra to have a 4wd. That's just poppycock. The only 'extra' maintenance for a 4wd version is to occasionally check the fluid levels and/or replace them, and that is something like a 50k interval anyway (or about 4 years worth of driving for most people.)

Mom, I hate to say it but you need to find a different place to get your vehicle serviced. They're taking you to the cleaners. It's unfortunate but true that some dealerships will try to intimidate women into thinking they need lots of expensive work done and scare them with stories of the worst that could happen.

Of course, it's not just women they try that tactic on: When I took my 4runner to Firestone to get the front brake pads replaced, they handed me a laundry list of "recommended fixes." They told me my rear brake cylinders were leaking, my swaybar bushings were dried and cracked, my shocks were worn out "based on mileage alone" (iow, there was nothing wrong with them but they "recommended" replacing them anyway), my front brake discs were "close to their service limit" and again recommended replacement, etc. The total list came to $2300 worth of "recommended" repairs.

I just :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: and said "fix the brakes, like I asked you to, please." but I can imagine that someone who is unsure of their vehicle, or not very knowledgeable about cars (and to be fair, I'm no mechanic) or just easily scared, could easily have thought

"Oh, noes! I'm driving a deathtrap! I better have the Highy Trained Professionals at Firestone fix my car before I DIE!!!!!!!!!

 

[T4Rnewb]

Many thanks

:jaw drop:WOW! Thanks to EVERYONE for all the responses! Apparently I brought up a good topic :cheers:
After reading through all of the posts and considering my situation and driving style, I think I'm gonna hold out for a 4wd!:driving:
I haven't done much trail riding myself, but I have been many times with friends and if I had the capabilities I would look for opportunities to take it off road! I also enjoy camping and I have a quad that I will be towing. Thanks again and feel free to keep the thread going with more excellent opinions and advice. :cheers:

 

[lmtdgov]

Sounds like you don't need or would even have the opportunity to use 4x4 that often so a 2x4 would be just fine.

Call your insurance company and ask what the cost to insure each model is.

If you're the type that might regret or always wish you would have gone for the 4x4 just because that is what you truly wanted, then maybe just get that so you are happy with your purchase.

 

[Satter]

I came across this thread and have read the posts. There have been some good points posted...for the most part. I don't off road, or have any intension of doing so. However, I bought a 4WD because I wanted to feel like a weekend warrior. Little did I know I would actually need it.

Two weeks after buying my truck a tropical storm blew through town. I went through high water thinking my T4R was high enough. Little did I know how high the water actually was. After water started going over the hood I started freaking out. I tried to go up an embankment on the side of the road but my back tires were slipping and wouldn't go over the curb. I put it in 4WD and up I went, high and dry. Drove along the embankment to dry ground. Now, I don't know if I would've totalled my truck my keeping it halfway submerged in water. But, I know it wouldn't have helped either.

Also, I've never had to put any extra maintence beside what the owner's manual says. And it not much. I say go for it.

 

[vthokie]

Now for what I'm looking for and why.....
1999-2002 Black T4R SR5 "Sport Edition" V6 4WD
less than 150,000 miles unless it was babied
under $10,000

I just got a black 2001 sr5 with 133k for 7k with 4x4. you should be able to get what you want with 4wd, it just takes time for the right 4runner to show up