5th gen and the curse of watanabe

[neowig]

should i be worried?

i mean, this guy was the executive vice-president since 2001 and he became the president in 2005 until last year.

assuming it takes 3-4 yrs to develop a model, 5th gen t4r was designed at the peak of his power. as many of u know, he's known to cut cost mercilessly. he's credited with the current toyota quality problem.

take, for example, the mid-life refresh of the t4r in 2006. while the merit of its redesign is open to debate, it's undeniable the motive behind it is to cut the cost down. i'm more worried about where people cannot see that might have been compromised.

i currently drive 2002 t4r(3rd gen) and i own 2006 t4r(4th refresh version. i gave it to my parents). while the performance of 4th gen is superior, i could see they cut many corners in order to save cost. for example, the quality of the car ceiling and the headliner of the 4th gen is practically a joke, as it seemed to be constructed out of a thick piece of paper-like material. my 4th gen made the constant rattling noise since the day one from the headliner and i suspect that it's due to the lowered quality of the ceiling material. again, i wonder where else they had cut corners where we cannot see them.

here's my question to you guys to those who are familiar with 3rd gen, 4th gen and 5th gen. how would you rate the general material and build quality of the 5th gen compare to the previous gens?

 

[Jed]

How do you figure the reason for the mid-cycle refresh in 2006 was to cut costs? That doesn't make any sense to me. The 2006 added stuff like LED tails and projector headlights. They also eventually added standard side airbags, and VSC off switch. I can't think of anything that was deleted on the 2006-2009 4Runners, other than the projector foglights. The cost cutting didn't occur until the 5th gen started in 2010.

I also owned a 3rd gen for 4 years before buying my 4th gen. I didn't notice anything that seemed lower quality in the 4th gen compared to the 3rd gen. In fact, I think the ride is much more refined and comfortable in the 4th gen. And there is no doubt that the engine is much more powerful in the 4th gen, regardless of whether you have a V6 or a V8. But when it comes to quality, both seem on the same level to me.

 

[neowig]

4th gen has keyhole only on the driver's side door. 3th gen has them on both the driver's side and the passenger's side door. as i mentioned, the ceiling and the headliner materials of the 3rd is superior compare to the 4th. the bumper of 4th refresh models had been simplified to cut cost. don't get me wrong. other than my pet peeve that's the rattle coming from the headliner in the 4th gen, 4th gen is superior in everyway compare to the 3rd in terms of performance. but then i wouldve expected nothing less. i was just pointing out that even before this guy watanabe became the president in 2005, the cost cutting had begun. and i would assume that it's gotten worse once he became the president.

i'm not too worried about the quality of 4th gen as it was designed in an era in which toyota was still producing good cars with quality engineering. i'm mainly interested to hear from those who owns 5th gen if u see any sign of this merciless cost cutting measures at the design level or otherwise that seemed to have pervaded during his reign.

 

[BROOKLYN]

i agree with the cost cutting. i've been in many new toyota and the cabin is a joke. It feels cheap. the recall all about cost cutting, the pedals plastic and to reduce cost they installed the same plastic pedal in every car regardless if it fit or not. This cost cutting is more noticable in american made toyota then japanese. Correct me if im wrong but only american made toyota were affected. The real joke is how there fixing the problem. toyota is advising all dealers to shave the pedal and install a shim later in time if needed change the pedal. the customer must come in 2 times get nailed twice with upsells.
THATS BULLSHIT

 

[BlairB]

Okay, saying that they do mid generation refreshes to cut costs is just wrong. It is exactly what it is called, a mid generation refresh. They do this to keep it looking fresh, and also to convince some to purchase the current generation rather than waiting for the next generation. It has nothing to do with cutting costs, as some pointed out, this mid generation refresh added a lot of features (LED tails, projector headlights, and most notably standard curtain airbags on 2008+), which in no way CUT costs.

Also, about only having one key hole... They made keyless entry standard on 4th gen, which was not the case on all 3rd gen. Yet again, not cost cutting, just no real need to add something that is in essence redundant.

The bumper of the 4th gen refresh is simpler to cut cost? Again, false. The bumper skin is just a piece that is made out of plastic, if they wanted to keep the cost down they would have kept the original mold and not made a new one. IIRC there are actually MORE parts to the 06+ bumpers than the 03-05.

Also, as for all the comments about the cabin feeling "cheap", there are a bunch of other factors that you are failing to take into consideration. Yes it may have to do with cost, but in reality, if they were to drive the cost of making a vehicle up, the customers who purchase the vehicles would ultimately pay the price, and I am sure far more people would complain at that when compared to those complaining about the material of the headliner. Also, things like thiner headliner have to do with things other than cost, such as weight. Toyota, as well as any car company, tries to cut WEIGHT whenever possible and if you think they overlook weight that can be saved on interior pieces, you are wrong.

As for the fix for the recalls, I have a few points.

Yes they are shaving the pedal for the floor mat recall, and I see NO problem with that. The people that had floor mat entrapment had issues due to the fact they were stacking multiple floor mats, did not have the mats installed correctly (i.e. not hooked in with the retaining clips) or were using mats from the WRONG vehicle. Toyota and the NHTSA decided that Toyota needed a "vehicle based remedy" rather than just advising customers to install the floormat correctly. The reason for this is so that years from now, even when people have forgotten about the floor mat recall, and they put mats in again falsely, they will not have this problem since their pedal has been shortened.

In regards to the accelerator pedal recall, saying that "they installed the same plastic pedal in every car regardless if it fit or not," shows that you do not understand what this recall is for. This is for a small resistance mechanism that is INSIDE the pedal assembly. It has nothing to do with installing a gas pedal in a vehicle regardless of if it fits. Specifically the part in question is a part that makes drive-by-wire throttle mechanisms feel like the older pedal assemblies that still used a mechanical linkage. They install a metal shim to help release surface tension, which fixes the problem of "sticking" that some people have. The shim fixes the issue. The only reason in which they replace the mechanism is if the owner of the vehicle does not feel comfortable with the fix, apparently lots of people . It has nothing to do with if it fixes the problem or not.

:ybrick:

 

[Uneek]

The '06 Limited did have the rear seat audio deleted. But it got Bluetooth and 4-disc MP3/WMA playback capable nav, memory seats, bigger rims to make up for it.

Toyota did cut costs, but probably not so much during mid-generation refreshes. They'll drop some things and add back others. Full generation changes are were cost cutting happens.

About the keyhole, less is more. It's cleaner.

 

[Jed]

neowig,

Nobody uses keys to lock/unlock their vehicles these days. So why would they continue putting keyhole locks on both doors? You only need one, just in case of emergency if the battery in your remote dies or if you break the remote. In the 6 years I've owned my 4Runner, I don't think I've ever once used the key to unlock it. Besides, all car makers have been deleting keyhole locks since keyless entry has become standard issue. I really don't think that's cost cutting, I think it's more about eliminating things that are no longer needed and saving a few bucks in the process

 

[bluebullet]

should i be worried?

i mean, this guy was the executive vice-president since 2001 and he became the president in 2005 until last year.

assuming it takes 3-4 yrs to develop a model, 5th gen t4r was designed at the peak of his power. as many of u know, he's known to cut cost mercilessly. he's credited with the current toyota quality problem.

take, for example, the mid-life refresh of the t4r in 2006. while the merit of its redesign is open to debate, it's undeniable the motive behind it is to cut the cost down. i'm more worried about where people cannot see that might have been compromised.

i currently drive 2002 t4r(3rd gen) and i own 2006 t4r(4th refresh version. i gave it to my parents). while the performance of 4th gen is superior, i could see they cut many corners in order to save cost. for example, the quality of the car ceiling and the headliner of the 4th gen is practically a joke, as it seemed to be constructed out of a thick piece of paper-like material. my 4th gen made the constant rattling noise since the day one from the headliner and i suspect that it's due to the lowered quality of the ceiling material. again, i wonder where else they had cut corners where we cannot see them.

here's my question to you guys to those who are familiar with 3rd gen, 4th gen and 5th gen. how would you rate the general material and build quality of the 5th gen compare to the previous gens?

I have a 99 SR5 4WD Manual Transmission I bought new for $30K vs MSRP of $32K. Not a great deal, but the best I could do at the time.
It has been bulletproof @ 115K miles. It has the diff lock and clutch cancel features. Nothing special beyond that.

I test drove a new 08 Sports Edition selling for $32K in the fall of 08 and the new 10 SR5 for $32.5K last week. Both of those new vehicles have many more features than my 99 yet cost very little more. I do not see any obvious lowering in quality. I guess my question is similar assuming no quality differences. How can they keep the prices down while adding so many additional features? After all how much savings are realized per vehicle for a thinner (lighter) headliner? They must be doing something additional to lower costs or they are allowing for lower profit margins.

I am waiting like many others here I suspect for supply to improve and for some possible rebates making a new 4Runner an even better deal.

 

[Jed]

I have a 99 SR5 4WD Manual Transmission I bought new for $30K vs MSRP of $32K. Not a great deal, but the best I could do at the time.
It has been bulletproof @ 115K miles. It has the diff lock and clutch cancel features. Nothing special beyond that.

I test drove a new 08 Sports Edition selling for $32K in the fall of 08 and the new 10 SR5 for $32.5K last week. Both of those new vehicles have many more features than my 99 yet cost very little more. I do not see any obvious lowering in quality. I guess my question is similar assuming no quality differences. How can they keep the prices down while adding so many additional features? After all how much savings are realized per vehicle for a thinner (lighter) headliner? They must be doing something additional to lower costs or they are allowing for lower profit margins.

I am waiting like many others here I suspect for supply to improve and for some possible rebates making a new 4Runner an even better deal.

Toyota really has done a remarkable job on keeping 4Runner prices in check over the years. There is no doubt in my mind that it costs them a considerable amount more to manufacturer the 4th gen than it did a 3rd gen just because of the additional features/content in them. My guess is that Toyota had much less profit per unit than they had in the late 90's. People like to say the 4Runner is an overpriced SUV, but I don't really see it that way anymore. Maybe that was the case 10 years ago, but now prices have caught up and the 4Runner seems to be right where I'd expect it to be....

 

[Thai]

Drum brakes ----> disc brakes...oh yeah, cost cutting for sure!!

 

[BROOKLYN]

As for the fix for the recalls, I have a few points.

Yes they are shaving the pedal for the floor mat recall, and I see NO problem with that. The people that had floor mat entrapment had issues due to the fact they were stacking multiple floor mats, did not have the mats installed correctly (i.e. not hooked in with the retaining clips) or were using mats from the WRONG vehicle. Toyota and the NHTSA decided that Toyota needed a "vehicle based remedy" rather than just advising customers to install the floormat correctly. The reason for this is so that years from now, even when people have forgotten about the floor mat recall, and they put mats in again falsely, they will not have this problem since their pedal has been shortened.

In regards to the accelerator pedal recall, saying that "they installed the same plastic pedal in every car regardless if it fit or not," shows that you do not understand what this recall is for. This is for a small resistance mechanism that is INSIDE the pedal assembly. It has nothing to do with installing a gas pedal in a vehicle regardless of if it fits. Specifically the part in question is a part that makes drive-by-wire throttle mechanisms feel like the older pedal assemblies that still used a mechanical linkage. They install a metal shim to help release surface tension, which fixes the problem of "sticking" that some people have. The shim fixes the issue. The only reason in which they replace the mechanism is if the owner of the vehicle does not feel comfortable with the fix, apparently lots of people . It has nothing to do with if it fixes the problem or not.

:ybrick:

so you mean to tell me that a customer that just spent 36k on a avalon wants to hear that they repaired the plastic petal that was getting stuck by shaving the tip and adding a shim instead of just replacing the defective pedal with a new pedal maybe japaneses are you MAD.
oh and yes every pedal affected in this recall is the same different part# same pedal its called COST CUTTING you seem to be educated check it out.

 

[Jed]

...oh and yes every pedal affected in this recall is the same different part# same pedal its called COST CUTTING ...

what?

 

[RonMAIDEN]

My 4Runner in the fall of '98 stickered at just under $36k (my mom '99 Limited @ $38k) and most 4runners have stickered at that or even less with the 4th gens so obviously Toyota had to cut corners here and there and while somethings might have seemed like an upgrade over a 3rd gen (and some things were an upgrade) were more likely added at a cost savings due to the price of certain technologies dropping. 3rd gen plastics and fabrics seemed better than the 4th gens but it's not like 4th gens came across as cheap.

 

[BlairB]

so you mean to tell me that a customer that just spent 36k on a avalon wants to hear that they repaired the plastic petal that was getting stuck by shaving the tip and adding a shim instead of just replacing the defective pedal with a new pedal maybe japaneses are you MAD.
oh and yes every pedal affected in this recall is the same different part# same pedal its called COST CUTTING you seem to be educated check it out.

Well as I said earlier they are replacing the pedal upon request, so if someone is not happy with it just being shaved and a shim put in, they can receive a new assembly. I just do not see why it is unacceptable to repair the part in question, rather than replace it. But clearly that is simply something we disagree upon.

Also, as for the cost cutting and using the same pedal. I know they have 4 different style shims, so that would imply at least 4 different (albeit probably similar) pedal designs. Also, why design totally unique assemblies when they are not needed? Standardization is a pretty widely accepted practice in both production as well as economics. You can't fault them for keeping cost down, when in reality there is no NEED to design a new pedal mechanism (at least at the time there was believed not to be) for every single vehicle. I mean, do you honestly expect a company to go back to the drawing board for every single part of a car? Should they redesign the clips and tabs that hold the body parts on, the power window controls, the type of engine used, the steering shaft etc... whenever they make a new model? Cars would sure be a lot more expensive if they did. It would just be bad business.

 

[neowig]

it was not my intention to discuss the toyota recalls - there are plenty of other thread already started for that...

i'm mainly interested in the opinions from those who owns 5th gen t4r and how it stacks up against 4th gen and/or 3rd gen in terms of general build and material quality... and to see if there are obvious cost-cutting measures on the 5th gen that stands out...

anyone?

 

[Jed]

...and to see if there are obvious cost-cutting measures on the 5th gen that stands out...

anyone?

You must have missed that huge thread about the stuff that was deleted from the 5th gen 4Runner. It lists everything you want to know...

 

[02SE]

it was not my intention to discuss the toyota recalls - there are plenty of other thread already started for that...

i'm mainly interested in the opinions from those who owns 5th gen t4r and how it stacks up against 4th gen and/or 3rd gen in terms of general build and material quality... and to see if there are obvious cost-cutting measures on the 5th gen that stands out...

anyone?

I don't own a 4th or 5th gen 4Runner, but I have looked closely at them and driven them. I still have my 3rd gen, because I simply didn't fit in the 4th gen comfortably (lack of headroom), and I was disappointed in some aspects of the 5th gen.

When I bought my 3rd gen, I noticed a decrease in material quality compared to the '93 SR5 Xtra-cab V6 4x4 truck I sold at the time. Blank plastic plugs instead of coin holders, harder dash pad, cheaper looking plastics, cheaper feeling upholstery. But it wasn't enough of a downgrade in materials to turn me off to buying the 4Runner. Buying the factory leather package meant not having to accept the cheapened fabric upholstery.

In fact the '95 FJ80 Landcruiser I had when I bought the 4Runner, didn't have as high of quality materials as the '93 truck.

I didn't think there was a big difference in material quality between the 3rd and 4th gen.

The 5th gen definitely has a cheapened feel in my opinion. The rock hard dash, the plastic steering wheel, the cheap looking/feeling transmission shifter, etc.

I've been a Toyota fan for a long time. I really want to like the 5th gen, but every time I get in one, the cheapened interior really bothers me. I'm hoping that Toyota realizes they've gone too far with the cost-cutting on materials, and future model years are upgraded to what Toyota's once were.