5th Gen Performance Mods

[1engineer]

I am only slighty surprised to hear of somebody regularly trying to drag race their 4800lb V6 SUV, though I am honestly much more surprised that you also found other people willing to race you in theird . Though, you might have answered your own question with respect to them not likely actually trying.

In my mind, I honestly thought people stopped counting once you got much above 6.0 .


Well, people waste billions per year on premium fuel when it doesn't do anything at all. Having a pretty decent understanding of ignition timing and knock resistance works, I am still skeptical.

Also, as far as the additives go, I suppose they have to sell it to somebody .

1E, in that article, do you remember if the timing advance was applied across the entire fuel map, or only realized at high throttle openings? I ask because if there is a real 3-10% increase in HP, and if the timing advance occurs at all throttle positions (and hopefully even more at modest throttle positions), then one should see a proportionate increase in fuel economy. As I am sure to know, advancing timing essentially extracts more mechanical energy from a given mixture rather than simply sending more heat out of the exhaust.

Even while gas is cheap (hah! 10 years ago I would have never called $2.25/gal "cheap"), premium is only about 10% more. So, if going with premium would add 10% to one's fuel economy, that is about 40 miles extra per tank, with no overall increase in fuel costs. When OPEC stops acting up and fuel prices jump back into the $3+ range, premium will then only be 5-7% more than regular so, if one gained 7-10% more HP then technically one could theoretically save money on fuel by going with premium.

Of course, this all depends whether our ECU is programmed per that article will actually permanently adjust timing based on real-life feedback, as well as if that adjustment is really as large as even 5%, let alone 10%.

Only latter part of curve if I remember correctly.

 

[wfo9]

One thing to remember is that performance and MPG don't always correlate directly (even on a NA motor).

Although higher octane should add a little power with the ECU adapting spark advance..., I doubt you would ever see it really pay off on the MPG side of things.

Another thing to keep in mind is that your fuels stored energy/gal is constantly changing on each fill-up. Simple example: Ethanol blends will improve Octane but it drops BTU/gal at the same time. Then you have summer vs winter blends to consider as well. Fuel is different as you move between states and regions.

 

[borfoo3]

Was really sad to see that all 5 pages of the "5th Gen Performance Mods" thread talking on fuel economy and MPGs.. And that its okay to be slow because that's what a 4Runner is meant to be.. lol

So back on the topic of performance, anyone try this on a 5th gen?

Toyota 4.0L X-One Engine Controller

Read somewhere about Gadget using something similar.. of course I have no 'proof' 'data' or 'evidence' on any of it. Reaching out to see if we still have hope for the 5th gen..

 

[Lindenwood]

Only latter part of curve if I remember correctly.

Well then, disregard all! If it only affects timing at large throttle openings, then I would almost never see any benefit.

And funny, my best friend is a petroleum engineer. He once crunched the numbers between pure gasoline and ethanol, discovering that the loss in fuel economy of ethanol blends (due to reduced energy density) almost exactly offsets the reduction in price, at least within the margins of error generated by varied gasoline qualities and blends by state and regions.

 

[NYT4R]

I only have 3300 miles on my 4Runner, but I rarely, if ever, reset my MPG average on the OBC. Before, running 87, I saw 15.5 MPG. After switching for sh&ts and giggles to 93 I am now averaging 17.7 MPG (without resetting it). No over changes. Mind you, this is not driving the speed limit and with VERY heave tires installed.

I will eventually dyno my 4Runner as is as I would like to try a few tuners to lean it out.

Chris, I'm kinda seeing the same numbers while using the higher octane fuel. I thought it was just me or that I just happen to have a good day driving. But the truth is, for me anyway and now you, a higher octane gave better MPG. Thanks for posting.

 

[Randyman...]

Well then, disregard all! If it only affects timing at large throttle openings, then I would almost never see any benefit.

So this thread is about "performance mods", when most of you don't even seem to (or admit to) mash the accelerator to the floor when needed? That is BY FAR the easiest performance mod - Use your God-given left foot to get you to WOT (and the Dual-VVTi power band). Result? The full potential of the lovely efficient AND powerful Dual-VVTi motor the Toyota engineers worked so hard on...

Otherwise you are leaving stock performance on the table while simultaneously wanting more performance??? Seems insane to me - but I tend to be overly logical in my existence in this world...

I only have 3300 miles on my 4Runner, but I rarely, if ever, reset my MPG average on the OBC. Before, running 87, I saw 15.5 MPG. After switching for sh&ts and giggles to 93 I am now averaging 17.7 MPG (without resetting it). No over changes. Mind you, this is not driving the speed limit and with VERY heave tires installed.

I will eventually dyno my 4Runner as is as I would like to try a few tuners to lean it out.

then

Chris, I'm kinda seeing the same numbers while using the higher octane fuel. I thought it was just me or that I just happen to have a good day driving. But the truth is, for me anyway and now you, a higher octane gave better MPG. Thanks for posting.

Ruh-row! If the power/efficiency (and by proxy: MPG gains) with high octane fuel are only in the upper end of the fuel map, what is going on here?

I have no regrets using premium fuel since my very first fill-up. My story, and I'm sticking to it.

Merry holiday celebrations, and a happy January to all human beings (P.C. crap is so stupid! :amen: )

Toodles :yo:

 

[Lindenwood]

So this thread is about "performance mods", when most of you don't even seem to (or admit to) mash the accelerator to the floor when needed? That is BY FAR the easiest performance mod - Use your God-given left foot to get you to WOT (and the Dual-VVTi power band). Result? The full potential of the lovely efficient AND powerful Dual-VVTi motor the Toyota engineers worked so hard on...

Having come of age owning and being around various motorcycles, dirt bikes, and turbo imports, a 4800lb automatic SUV hitting 60mph in 8 seconds is about as exciting as watching paint dry. Hell, my 109hp Honda Fit at least had a 5-speed to make it kinda fun!

Otherwise you are leaving stock performance on the table while simultaneously wanting more performance??? Seems insane to me - but I tend to be overly logical in my existence in this world...

What do you mean? Who said they want stock performance as well as more performance?

Ruh-row! If the power/efficiency (and by proxy: MPG gains) with high octane fuel are only in the upper end of the fuel map, what is going on here?

If there is no evidence that the programming affects these parts of the maps, then there are myriad other explanations to account for these changes:

1) Most wngines continue to gain efficiency for the first several thousand miles.
2) Any initial excitement about aggressive driving might have worn off after those first few thousand miles.
3) Progression from winter to warmer weather does wonders for improving mileage.

Of course, we really know too little about this whole timing mystery to make real conclusions.

In any case, I'm getting 21-22mpg commuting with shitty Florida 87 octane fuel, so I can't say I am terribly motivated to mess around with it.

 

[jk24runner]

1. CAI
There are several Cold Air Intakes offered that will fit the 4Runner including the TRD intake. Do they work? Do they give you more power and efficiency? Depends on your definition frankly. Personally I think the only thing they give you is more or different noise. A member [MENTION=116156]TheWraith[/MENTION] went above and beyond (good stuff) and actually did a dyno test of before and after a CAI. His numbers showed around 5-6 hp gain with a new CAI. I believe his numbers but unfortunately 5 of 270 is less than 2%. 2% is well within the margin of error of the machine. Changing air flow in front of a dyno by simply adding a fan in front of the vehicle can change dyno numbers by a lot more than that! I don't doubt his numbers and I know he truly wanted to do an "apples to apples" comparison. Unfortunately he had no other data to compare with. Why? Because nobody else has done it! Everyone depends on their "butt dynos" and we all know there is no butt the same. Wouldn't you think if we could improve hp and efficiency by 2% that Toyota would put that component in there from the factory? It's simple right? Moving on:

one thing i think that is worth bringing up is yes [MENTION=116156]TheWraith[/MENTION] my have only gotten a few HP out of the TRD CAI, he did see i believe 20lbs/tq. that is a pretty big jump in my book. Mind you that this was when his truck was in a more stock form. he did report power and TQ loss when he redyno'd with larger tires on. just my thoughts.

personally i think the 4runner does ok....although i came from a JK Rubicon with 37's on it. Before that i had a 650 hp EVO8. i just know that the 4runner will never be fast. i had my fast car days, and yes i miss them, but with a family now this is the smarter way. hell i still get to have lots of fun in the 4runner.

 

[96r50]

[MENTION=66316]1engineer[/MENTION] & [MENTION=148869]Lindenwood[/MENTION], I believe this is the article in question from LCOOL.org. I've copied it below for simplicity. I'm pretty sure it was originally a forum post that was copied and made into an article for their main webpage. There is no mention of a source for any of the info within but it is an interesting idea nonetheless.

High Octane Fuel

With the availability of high octane unleaded fuel in Australia, Prado enthusiasts have invariably tried it at some point. There is however varied feedback ranging from quite positive in terms of performance and improved fuel economy to no change and a waste of money.

Let’s look at why this is - in an effort to help members understand how their petrol Prado adapts to varying fuel quality.

Briefly, a Prado petrol engine requires fuel to be injected at the right time and a spark to be generated at the spark plug at a precise point in the compression cycle. Fuel then burns in a controlled fashion generating lots of good energy to push the piston and ultimately drive the car.

If that spark is generated a little bit later in the compression cycle (retarded ignition timing), combustion is less efficient resulting in less power and torque.

Conversely, if that spark is generated a little bit earlier in the compression cycle (ie advanced ignition timing), fuel combustion occurs in an explosive fashion commonly referred to as detonation or pinging. This can lead to engine damage.

Generally the optimum ignition timing is advanced to a point just before the onset of detonation (in most engines). This results in the highest efficiency and results in the maximum amount of power and torque.

The higher the fuel octane rating, the less prone it is to detonation, hence the greater potential for ignition timing to be advanced further. – Again resulting in higher efficiency. However, we have no control over the ignition timing advance as it is adjusted by the engine management system.

In recent years, Toyota had been quite proactive in adopting advances in engine management and implementing them on the Toyota 4WD range. One of these advances was an ignition advance system that slowly advanced ignition timing to the point where minor detonation would occur and was registered by the engine knock sensors. The engine management system would then retard the ignition timing slightly and after a period of time without further detonation, slowly advance timing again. This ensures that the engine runs as efficiently as possible given the fuel quality available. The tuning industry’s term for this adaptive system is one that “runs on the knock sensors”.

This is not to be confused with less advanced systems that run a predetermined ignition advance map and use the knock sensors as a safety precaution to retard only when serious detonation occurred.

Prado petrol engines are equipped with adaptive ignition timing however the rate at which the timing advances is very slow indeed. In addition, if even minor detonation is registered at one part of the RPM range, the entire ignition map is retarded across the entire RPM range.

When high octane fuel is used, the likelihood of detonation is diminished and the engine management system can advance the ignition timing further than that with standard fuel. Resulting in higher efficiency, greater power and torque as well as reduced fuel consumption.

However, in the range of Prado petrol engines, the rate of ignition advance is very slow indeed. This means that one needs to run high octane fuel for many km before any change in performance or economy is fully realised. In the case of the 3.4L V6 in the 90 Series, 5,000 – 7,000 km and for the 4.0L V6 in the 120 Series, 3,000 km – 5,000 km.

Generally after one or two tanks full, the owner will give up and return back to standard fuel because he notices no difference – and does not realise that it takes so long. However if you persist, the benefits are real and quantifiable – more so in terms of fuel economy.

A direct example that I can quote is my wife’s 120 Series 4.0L V6 petrol Grande. She is a most consistent driver in that she travels the same roads and highway day in day out. In addition, her driving habits do not change over time.

Fuel economy with standard unleaded was consistently 15.5 l/100km. However, with 98 RON Shell Optimax, fuel economy is consistently 13.1 l/100km – a reduction of 2.4 l/100km or in percentage terms, a reduction of 15.5% in fuel consumption. This incidentally is greater than the price difference between standard unleaded and Optimax, so in her case, running the better quality fuel results in an overall saving in fuel bills, extended range – and of course the additional engine performance is free!

The secret is though to persist with the better quality fuel for a long period of time.

Cheers

gc

 

[Lindenwood]

Nice find! Thanks for posting it.

One interesting tidbit, is those results were had with roughly 94 octane fuel by U.S. standards. Many regions in the States only serve up to 91 octane, which would certainly reduce the benefits observed here.

I am also very curious to hear further on the author's assertion that most of the benefits come in the form of fuel economy (i.e. at lower rpms and throttle openings).

 

[NYT4R]

1. CAI
2. MAF Spacer
3. Running High Octane fuel
4. Exhaust mods
5. Reducing GVW and unsprung mass
6. Driving smarter

1Engineer, nice post. You covered many of the things I have been thinking about and gave me common sense as well as real world answers. I would like to add 2 things:

I added a K&N Air Filter and removed the OEM Air Filter (instead of adding a CAI system). What I noticed was that while I received better pedal response, my MPG went down. Really down. I assume that is because I am getting more air flow to the engine and Its allowing for more fuel burn.


Second thing I wanted to add was a link to this gizmo on Amazon.com. I see that there are no reviews yet. And I am not sure I would put it on myself without some reviews. But I am wondering what you think. Heres the link:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01M0LSFZ...UTF8&colid=3PGU320Q6Y8ZH&coliid=I6X4GLBAYTAGN

 

[NYT4R]

Randyman...
Wanna know my answer? The 5th Gen is a mechanical afterthought. My 4th Gen was sexy looking, rugged looking, performed flawlessly, got great gas mileage, handled like a dream, etc and so on.

I see that on the 5th gen forum area there are so many complaints and mod required to make the vehicle "correct", it lends me to believe that that this 5th gen is an afterthought from Toyota.

Why? Poor shocks and struts and springs, headlight/fog light bulb replacements, poor engine power, terrible gas mileage, windy days push this vehicle around very badly, not enough telescoping or tilt on the steering wheel, Entune is weak and quirky, the side window sill is too high and the arm rest is too low, lack of options that comparable models in the same price range have as standard options, and so much more then I can remember at the moment. So everyone is modding out this generation as much as their purse will allow.

The good things are that this is a tank. There is so much more interior room and much more seat adjustments then the 4th gen. More torque, better for offroading, and a few other things that I cant remember either.

I still feel the same Toyota quality as far as reliability and long term stability is concerned, but I think that they just put this generation together with changes just for the sake of making a new generation. Its fun to mod out the 4R, but to have to do it to make the vehicle "correct" or feel like stock has left me feeling like I should have waited until the 6th Gen or another brand.


I'm underwhelmed and I am almost ready to sell it with just 8500 miles on it and 1k worth of mods so far. And I havent even gotten to the sound system or the suspension. And I probably wont do either of these because this is not a better version of the 4th Gen, its just the next generation and thats all.

 

[maspenny]

This info was very helpful to me. I've been searching and searching for mods to increase horsepower. I have the K&N CAI and wasn't sure if I should get a cat back exhaust. I think I'll wait on the exhaust and go with the supercharger for now.