$60,000 Hyundai anyone?
- Thread starter T4Fun
- Start date
Yeah, I agree....the Japanese brands did seem to copycat quite a bit and the early Lexus models certainly did remind me of MB.
I also remember when we started to first see DVD-based navigation systems. It was the Japanese that had them first. At the time, MB and BMW were still using CD-based navigation (you had at least 8 discs to cover the U.S.) instead of a single DVD for the mapping/software. So more recently I think it's fair to say that the Japanese automakers have started to take a more proactive approach to technology.
Thai
Elite Member
Tell me about it! My 2004 Mercedes had those damn CD-ROMs...oh, the pain! The graphics look like 1980's Commordore! That was just shameful!
BTW, do you guys know who started the HDD (hard disc drive) for NAVI and music storage? Was it Acura? Lexus was not the first for sure. I know that Mercedes came out early...same time as Acura?
I was thinking about that when I was making my last post....I'm not sure, but my guess is also Acura. Honda/Acura had the best navigation systems back around 2000/2001 when they went went DVD-based. I think it was also Honda/Acura that went to HDD-based navigation too, but I'm not completely sure about that. Today, I think Nissan/Infiniti has the best factory navigation. It's very intuitive, fast, and of course HDD-based. Plus they offer touchscreen AND a rotory knob control, which is rare these days. And the 3D & birdeye mapping is awesome.
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Koz
New member
Who is the Sonata copying? I just can't put my finger on any specific design that Hyundai copied. It is actually a very nice car if you have the chance to look at it. (I still prefer the Camry because my ass is old and i like a soft ride!)
Snota and Benz
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Thai
Elite Member
For me, the HDD system is great in theory, but not that great in practice. One, the updating of the mapping is not cheap nor easy. I read on the Lexus that you have to get the dealer/service person to do it...they have to hook it up to their computer and download the updated software. As such, you are charged the hourly rate for the dealer...so, it isn't exactly cheap, as compared to buying a DVD update. Second, the HDD system itself has less than 10 gb of storage for most system. I have an Itouch 64 gb that has far more storage for music. The ONLY thing that i hear is good about HDD is that the system apparently runs slightly faster than DVD-based NAVI.
KOZ, ahh, i see the resemblance! Oh well, Hyundai owners should rejoice!
Koz
New member
The system has a USB connector, maybe you will see it come on a jump drive. Also if you have enform it may be downloaded without even having do anything. The system downloads map directions now. I do not think you will need to pay to install an update.
Koz
Thai
Elite Member
Found it: How Do I Update the HDD - Club Lexus Forums
"You need the map dvd to load it on the navigation update tool using a computer, then you upload the map key to the navigation update tool, once you are done, you connect the navigation update tool to your car and then you can update the map on your navigation system. The Map key is only valid for one car.
The navigation update tool is the only way you can update the maps on the US-spec models."
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I have highlighted the "parts" that are needed. To me, it seems like a call to your local dealer to get it done. And you end up paying for the "map key"...and maybe even the map DVD itself if the dealer wants to charge that to you! I don't know...getting a simple DVD and sticking it into your DVD drive seems a lot simpler and possibly cheaper! Anything that goes through the Lexus service can't be cheap!
"You need the map dvd to load it on the navigation update tool using a computer, then you upload the map key to the navigation update tool, once you are done, you connect the navigation update tool to your car and then you can update the map on your navigation system. The Map key is only valid for one car.
The navigation update tool is the only way you can update the maps on the US-spec models."
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I have highlighted the "parts" that are needed. To me, it seems like a call to your local dealer to get it done. And you end up paying for the "map key"...and maybe even the map DVD itself if the dealer wants to charge that to you! I don't know...getting a simple DVD and sticking it into your DVD drive seems a lot simpler and possibly cheaper! Anything that goes through the Lexus service can't be cheap!
Thai
Elite Member
Oh here is more fun facts...according to one RX450h owner (http://www.clublexus.com/forums/hybrid-technology/462307-rx-450h-nav-version.html): "The dealer charged me $300; $200 for the upgrade kit and $100 for labor. It took them three hours to do it"
And i believe that this was done via the Lexus service computer...not over Enform, and possibly not through USB either (not sure from reading the thread).
So, this HDD map update is no cheaper than buying a map DVD for DVD-based NAVI. I think that Toyota is offering $199 for new map DVD...so, HDD map update is more expensive! So, where is the advantage? I rather stick with my DVD-based NAVI where i can update it myself without having to stop & wait at service...and my ITouch 64gb. And it doesn't look like you can get faster map updates either vs. the traditional DVD.
And i believe that this was done via the Lexus service computer...not over Enform, and possibly not through USB either (not sure from reading the thread).
So, this HDD map update is no cheaper than buying a map DVD for DVD-based NAVI. I think that Toyota is offering $199 for new map DVD...so, HDD map update is more expensive!
So, where is the advantage? I rather stick with my DVD-based NAVI where i can update it myself without having to stop & wait at service...and my ITouch 64gb. And it doesn't look like you can get faster map updates either vs. the traditional DVD.
Uneek
Super Moderator
Well, I don't think Toyota will go bankrupt like GM. I think Toyota's leadership isn't that dumb to sit around and just collect a pay check. They just need to keep pushing and striving what they got them to number and not change their focus. Looking at what they did mechanically to the 5th gen 4Runner compared to the 4th is a huge disappointment. I'll leave looks out of it because that's subjective. But there's no arguing that the 4th gen was far more superior mechanically.
But I a few other brands, VW and Hyundai will pass Toyota as the largest auto maker. I think Lexus will lose its position as the number selling luxury brand.
Uneek
Super Moderator
I think the early Lexus navigation system were HDD based. The LS and GS in the late 90's. I could be wrong though.
Thai
Elite Member
Hmmm, that is interesting!
Even with hybrid technology, which has been Toyota's beam of innovation, Toyota is beginning to fall behind.
Uneek
Super Moderator
I agree. Only problem though is cellular companies will probably hose us on the data usage. Having cellular backup with alarm systems like ADT still cost $30 a month just for that coverage.
At the last company I was with, where we offered GPS solutions for enterprise mobile resource and fleet management, VZW still charged in excess of $45/mo for unlimited data services. The total fleet had 15k vehicles and maybe 2-3k were unlimited. The rest only had a 2MB plan for $6/mo. That was the rates for a special customer with close VZW ties.
Car makers better offer something worthy for their $2k plus system. The only way I'll buy an in-car nav is if it has a backup camera and some. Otherwise, why pay 5-10x's for an OEM system when a Garmin or Magellan can do the same.
But eventually, I think smart phones will replace Garmins and Magellans. The last time I looked, the Google Maps app offer turn by turn directions for Droid based phones. Of course, this is dependent on cell coverage.
I really believe the 5th gen was hurt by cost-cutting. The fact that they got rid of the center differential on all but the Limited models is proof of how far they went to cut costs. That is a major disappointment and I hope to see Toyota turn around and start making the center diff standard on the SR5 as well as the Limited. Leave the part-time system for the Trail Edition.
Toyota is still a very profitable company. It wasn't long ago that they surpassed GM as the #1 auto manufacturer. I think they can hold on to that position for quite some time, given the troubles throughout the entire industry.
Thai
Elite Member
I know that you guys feel that Toyota cut corners with the 5th gen. But, you know, it seems like they improve the 4th gen design in other places, like strengthening the frame & axles. These were known weaknesses of the 4th gen & FJ design. They mass-produce the Trail Edition while providing more off-road goodies (Terrain Select, rear locker, etc.). JBL stereo system is seemingly higher end.
Of course, in today's economy, the costs of materials going up, you gotta figure that toyota can't improve the above without cutting corners elsewhere. I agree that the center diff deletion was painful. However, the frame and axle improvements should not be forgotten because these two things affect durability of the 4runner. Although not prevalent with 4runner, the FJ had major issues with frame twisting resulting in fender bulges and cracks. The rear axle blowing when equipped with locker...4th gen never did come with rear locker (until the limited production 2009 Trail Edition). So, while the center diff deletion was regrettable, i would still pick a 5th gen over the 4th gen due to the above improvements, maybe because i off-road and care about those things more than other folks. And i am sure that living in dry Texas helps me forget the center diff deletion more.
I know that you guys feel that Toyota cut corners with the 5th gen. But, you know, it seems like they improve the 4th gen design in other places, like strengthening the frame & axles. These were known weaknesses of the 4th gen & FJ design. They mass-produce the Trail Edition while providing more off-road goodies (Terrain Select, rear locker, etc.). JBL stereo system is seemingly higher end.
Of course, in today's economy, the costs of materials going up, you gotta figure that toyota can't improve the above without cutting corners elsewhere. I agree that the center diff deletion was painful. However, the frame and axle improvements should not be forgotten because these two things affect durability of the 4runner. Although not prevalent with 4runner, the FJ had major issues with frame twisting resulting in fender bulges and cracks. The rear axle blowing when equipped with locker...4th gen never did come with rear locker (until the limited production 2009 Trail Edition). So, while the center diff deletion was regrettable, i would still pick a 5th gen over the 4th gen due to the above improvements, maybe because i off-road and care about those things more than other folks. And i am sure that living in dry Texas helps me forget the center diff deletion more.
If I were buying a 5th gen 4Runner today (which will never be the case for obvious reasons), I'd have to go with the Limited. The center diff is just something I couldn't give up. I think the Trail is great for what it is, but like I said, the center diff is more important to me than any offroad gizmos.
As far as the frame strengthening, I wasn't even aware that they improved it. Actually, I don't even see the need. Isn't the 4Runner frame already fully boxed and strong as hell? What did they improve and why? I've never once heard of frame-related issues on the 4th gen, even considering the hardcore guys who modify their rigs and put heavy steel bumpers/winches and stuff on them.
Thai
Elite Member
Jed, read the Toyota press release on the 5th gen. (I am at work...so, i don't have the time to find it.) They specifically mentioned frame & axle strengthening. Actually, fully boxed frame is nice, but may not be enough. I remember reading a few cases of crossmember or bracket something bending on a few 4th gen off-road (over at the "other" 4th gen forum). Then, you have the horrible FJ fiasco with fender bulging. If the 4th gen frame was perfect, then Toyota would not need to specifically mentioned their efforts to make it better.
Every time a vehicle is redesigned, we always here how it's "35% more torsionally rigid" than the vehicle it replaces. Even if the prior model was perfectly fine! I just attribute that to marketing hype more than anything else.
That said, I'd love to know what they really did to improve the frame. I'll have to search for the specific details. In the meantime, I won't lose too much sleep over the "weaker" frame in my 4th gen.
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