65 mph vibration a typical 4Runner problem?

[jwyshrek]

No, the 4th gen is Hub Centric! I know this because I have looked at my rotors. They have a lip (flange) around the center cap, which sits inside the the center of the wheel, centering it. Even Spidertrax have the lip.

Toyota Hub Centric Wheel Spacer Kit

Also look at this picture of the front rotor in this thread. It has the same lip.

http://www.toyota-4runner.org/maintenance/63934-my-4th-gen-front-brakes-walkthrough.html

Using a special adapter on a "balancing machine" makes sense though.

No, they are lug centric (most of your aftermarket off road wheel are this way as well...call 4WheelParts...so that the wheels are 'universal' fit.). Otherwise, why the need for the special (Haweka) adaptor when balancing?

You need to look at the wheel and not the hub...when you mount the wheel with the lug nuts tighten, does it even touch the hub...I don't think so.

4Runners.org - Balancing Your Tires: Haweka Adapter

If you ever get a chance to visit a tire shop or even a junkyard...remove and mount the wheel on a Jeep XJ or something from Ford (those are hubcentric)...you will see the difference.

 

[jwyshrek]

Actually, you know what...we might be both right...I just found this:

"Hub-centric vs. Lug-centric
Toyota Alloy Wheels are machined to be both hub centric and lug centric. When you actually do the machining for a wheel, the easiest way to locate it on the table is to machine the center first and then use that to locate the wheel for all other milling operations. The machining of the lug holes would likely come quite some time into the machining process so it would be almost impossible to say that these were truly a centric point to the rim (although the tolerances on CNC machining for a company of Toyota's caliber would be very tight - thus for all intents and purposes the wheels they produced should be both lug and hub centric at the same time).
"

UltimateYota.com - Write-Up: Haweka Tire Balancer

 

[Nuke]

When I first encountered this issue on my 2nd gen wheels, I proved to the tire dealer that did my mounting and balancing that they were lug centric. The dealer kept stating "No, we don't need the adapter" and then he'd shake his head when I kept coming back about still havng vibration. He insisted on balancing w/o the adapter. I let him balance the first tire as I watched and then told him I wouldn't pay him unless he rotated that wheel about 145 degrees on the balance machines shaft and respin it. He insisted he'd still get 0.00-0.00. To his dismay, each time he respun the wheel with variance to the original line-up of the wheel and machine shaft he would not get it to show a decent balance. After rebalancing with the adapter and redoing my little experiment, he was convinced.

 

[Krazynative]

Good... I was getting tired of debating...

You can tell if a wheel is hub centric just by putting it onto the rotor. Once you get the wheel flush with the rotor it wont rest on the threads. A little turn might be needed to line up the center the studs, but you won't have to lift the wheel any to get the lug nuts threaded.

When I was youonger I worked at a tire store for a year. I'll tell ya... It wasn't fun.

 

[jwyshrek]

Sorry man, I have to go with my original statement...the OEM toyota wheels on 4runners are lug centric. I did quite a bit of research on this...

I even stopped by the local dealership (Capitol Toyota) here to ask one of the techs...he confirmed that they are lug centric and that is why the Haweka adapter is needed.

Also found this:
Hub Centric OR Lug Centric - YotaTech Forums

You can argue all you want, but you are not going to persuade me otherwise. And if you want to quote background...I'm an engineer with 20+ years as a shadetree mechanic. If you want to test this...mount the wheel and then use a feeler gauge (you know what a feeler gauge is, right?) inbetween the hud and wheel...there will be space there. If it was hub centric, there would be no space as the hub would support the weight of the vehicle.

Just because it quacks like a duck or sounds like a duck...

 

[Krazynative]

Well maybe because I have Hub Centric Spidertrax, my OEM wheels are now mysteriously Hub Centric. I just installed FJ Springs over the weekend and double checked. And guess what... they are Hub centric.

And guess what? I'm an Engineer too. I have been rebuilding motorcycles and working on cars for close to 35 years.

I wasn't trying to one up you with the mention of working at a tire store. Just wanted to let you know I had some experience on the subjuct, and not from under a tree.

 

[blaniac22]

:vader:

 

[jwyshrek]

Stop the presses.

Okay, being an engineer, one of the philosophies you abide by is "devil's in the details'.

When I looked at my 4Runner wheels in the past, I only removed the center cap...and from that it seems that the wheel is not touching the hub (unlike my XJ). I even took a picture to post.

But it kept bothering me...what is this guy seeing? So, I decided to take the wheel ('05 sport front passenger side) off to make sure...

I BE DAMNED if the wheel is not touching the hub...although shallow compared to others I've seen...it is making contact between the OEM wheel and front hub...the wear mark can clearly been seen. I even took a set of machinist calipers and measured the 'wheel hub bore'...right at 106mm and the hub diameter...just a few ticks below 106mm.

Always something new to learn...but it begs the question...where are all these other people getting their info? I'm thinking that maybe last generation or so, it changed from being purely hub centric to being both.

I still say 'both' because you have to admit...the 4runner hub is big compared to other 6-bolt manufactures (i.e., nissan, ford, gm). Maybe that's why the Haweka adapter is needed...the center bore is so big that it can't be aligned on the balance machine by 'normal' means.

So, (at least on the front), the wheel mounts as hub-centric...but I believe you should treat them as lug-centric for proper balance.

(I need to call that guy at toyota again...)

Live and Learn!

 

[jwyshrek]

By the way, the OEM 4runner sport wheel center bore is not 'straight cut' like other wheels. That's why it appears not to touch the hub when mounted...it is sort of straight and then taper cut (machined).

 

[jwyshrek]

I wasn't trying to one up you with the mention of working at a tire store. Just wanted to let you know I had some experience on the subjuct, and not from under a tree.

Same here...I know some people go nuts with disagreements on this forum...but you know what...a 'healthy' conflict/disagreement is good sometimes...doesn't matter if end up being right or wrong. If you get one to think or get yourself thinking and finding the right answers...then you've used some brain cells, which is always a good thing.

 

[Gadget]

When I bought my first 4Runner in early 96, I had a terrible vibration problem at 70 MPH.

Toyota could not fix the truck. Toyota technical could not fix it. I had to fix it myself. It was as simple as one wheel that was not round enough.

Anyway, I beat Toyota in arbitration over this and along the way I learned a lot about vehicle vibrations and I published some of what I learned on my website Vibration Problems

The info there has been copied and republished all over the Net since then. Not sure if it will help your problem or not, but you might find it worth the read.

G

 

[bpatten0416]

Guys - All good points. When it comes down to it, it doesn't really matter if the wheels are lug or hub centric - what's important is that the Haweka adapter IS required to balance them properly. Having just purchased and mounted new Firestone Destination AT's and having them "balanced" without the adapter - I quickly took my 4Runner to a shop WITH the adapter. The tech said that Toyota wheels are notoriously hard to balance and can not be balanced properly without the adapter!

_________________
2007 4Runner 4x4 Sport Edition 4.0L - Galactic Grey

 

[illzoni]

Guys - All good points. When it comes down to it, it doesn't really matter if the wheels are lug or hub centric - what's important is that the Haweka adapter IS required to balance them properly. Having just purchased and mounted new Firestone Destination AT's and having them "balanced" without the adapter - I quickly took my 4Runner to a shop WITH the adapter. The tech said that Toyota wheels are notoriously hard to balance and can not be balanced properly without the adapter!

_________________
2007 4Runner 4x4 Sport Edition 4.0L - Galactic Grey

Does this rule of thumb (adapter required) apply to 1st Gen's as well?

Just had my '87's wheels balanced. Had a rear end vibration before...and still do. Comes and goes ~65-70mph. Starting to wonder if I just need new rear shocks. The tire shop said I had one wheel well out of balance, but couldn't tell me which (tech didn't tell writer).

 

[texas_runner]

Is that true? I certainly hope so. Anyone concur?

At about 27,000 miles I began getting a bit of vibration and thought to myself that if this 4Runner is anything like my previous 2nd and 3rd gens with regard to balancing, I may seriously get rid of it. That's how bad the previous gens have been. It's really a shame because my current 4th gen is my 6th Toyota; all EXTREMELY dependable and reliable.

I concur! I had the same problem after tire replacement. I did a little research and had them finally rebalance them using the lug adaptar. :jump:

 

[steadyeddie]

I just picked up an '05 V8 SE and it's got a bad vibration right at 70 mph, but no vibration when i go much faster or slower.

I read on toyota120's info site about the 4Runner that this has been a common problem with the stock rubber (which i unfortunately still have). "Some of the initial problems with the 4Runner included:... Vibration at 65MPH (normally fixed by replacing factory rubber)" 4Runner

However, I searched on here and haven't seen mention of this anywhere else.
Is this a well known problem that people have had? If so, how did you fix it? (if anything other than replacing the stock rubber) I have gotten an alignment and the tires balanced twice, but the problem persists.

thanks,

Jon

Hello there. My '97 4R which has 260K miles developed a vibration issue at speeds approaching and above 50 MPH. I rotated the rubber but this had no effect. After some research and local "brain picking" I took the truck to a trusted local wrench. He diagnosed the problem as a bad rear U-joint and replaced it. Bingo! Less than $150 and I have smooth running truck again. Had the problem also involved the front U-joint though, I was informed that the cost would have been greater since the front is non-servicable and would have required replacing the drive shaft as a unit.

 

[BobbyZee]

Last year I started getting vibration at around 60mph (nothing after 70mph) on my 05 SR5, right after I bought some lug-centric spacers off ebay. After lot of brain-picking, I removed the spacers and voila!...no vibrations. That said, I concur about the difference in balancing with/without adapter.

 

[YotaRunner03]

Just want to throw my two cents in... I've been having issues with balance around 65-70 mph on my stock 03 Limited since I bought it used. I brought it back for the third time to my local Toyota dealer for rebalance and told them to use the Haweka adapter (they said only Tundras with iForce need that). I told them 4Runners do too and after balance with the adapter, vibration/wobble is 99% gone. The difference in ride and steering feel is amazing. This is why I love this forum!

 

[truckmike26]

Guess what. I'm getting a slight vibration in and around 120 km/h (75 mph). I was about to condem the Grandtreks but now I'm not so sure. Last week I had one of the larger and more up-to-date Toyota dealers balance my wheels. A bit better but the vibration is still there. The service writer said they were really off (okay, but strange on a two-year-old truck with only 14,000 km).

Now to wake up the lug-centric/hub-centric debate. As I understand it, it has to do with the type of lug nuts and the wheel lug holes. If they're tapered or conical, the rim's lug centric -- if the lug nuts or bolts mate flat, it's hub-centric. The clearance between the hub and rim centre bore isn't a good way to figure out if it's lug or hub centric. Case-in-point: my '94 Toyota Pickup with 31x10.5x15 tires and factory steel 15x7 wheels slide easily off the front axles while I have to pound and pound and pound and spray penetrant and let it sit for a while and the pound some more to get the rear wheels off the hubs. Thus the front IFS disc-brake axles offer some clearance whereas the rear drum brake axles have a slip or interference fit. The wheel lug nuts are tapered/conical and mate to the countersunk lug holes in the rims. The lug nuts locate the rims on the axles nomatter what the clearance is at the hub.

Just like spark plug designs -- old iron-headed engines use a taper-seat plug whereas most aluminium-alloy head use flat, gasket-seat plugs.

 

[08SilverB]

T4R Wheel Vibration at Highway Speed's

I owned a 1996 4-Runner several year's back that took Month's to get the Front End Vibration problem corrected after purchasing it way back in 2000.

A big Thank's to "GADGET" and his Web Page for all the information that is provided!

Front vibration problems at Highway speed's can start upon getting the 1st set of tires replaced on a newer vehicle. As Gadget pointed out, there should either be NO weight on each wheel or a very SMALL one. When you have the large 2" inch weight's that's not considered a proper balance. Toyota's are very TIGHT in the front end and it doesn't take much to start a vibration.

I spent hundred's of dollar's at the local Dealership trying to have the problem fixed and replacing different front end part's that didn't correct the problem. I was then told I had bad Tires/Rim's then it was "Are you a perfectionist"?

I started doing some research and found Gadget's Site. I called and talked to the Balance Pro's at "Hunter, Inc" and they enlightened me. Toyota had known about this issue for year's and told their Dealerships they needed to use the Haweka adapter and start investing in Hunter's GSP 9700 Road Force Variance/Spin Balance Machine especially for the Tundra's and 4 Runner's with the larger wheel's.

Armed with this knowledge I went back to the Dealership. Amazing how they changed their story.... I was then told "We have one on order, they cost $30K". A year later I called and was told the same thing!

When I talked to a Hunter a Rep gave me the location of a FULL SERVICE Tire Retailer that had the Hunter GSP 9700 Machine. Here this Shop was Balancing Tires for several of the area's Toyota/Lexus Dealership's. They would even print out the spec's to show how many pound's each tire was out BEFORE & AFTER the balance. That way if you have a bad Tire or Rim it will pick it up. They also sometimes shave tires if necessary to get a good balance.

 

[truckmike26]

Worth noting is my Tundra has the factory base 255/70R18 Michelin LTX tires. With big 18" steel rims and 32" overall, this truck is super smooth at all freeway speeds, 90 through 150 km/h. The steel rims are lug-centric because the lug nuts are conical. The spare, however, is a Bridgestone Dueler H/T. It's been noted how Michelin light truck tires tend to be very true. Why four Michelins and one Bridgestone spare? Maybe it was just a production quirk or maybe...who knows. I'm still a bit suspicious of the stock Dunlop Grandtreks on the 4Runner.