80k+ miles and changes need to be made (question heavy)

[sinks88]

This place has been a great source for info and I need to dip into the pot a bit more:

I now have about 85k on my 2014 and now need to do some changes that behoove me to plan out correctly: (fyi, while this is a daily I do offroad quite a bit and I live in the worst place for vehicles: Minnesota.)

My first issue is my Lower Control Arm Bushings are shot, My second issue is with my 5100's (those feel shot), my third issue is my wheels are a bit too small and my last issue is I'm a bit too low in front.

1st issue: lower bushings:
Question: Do I go OEM or Aftermarket? If aftermarket....has anyone with a 5th gen started replacing bushings, and what did you use?(company/items)

2nd Issue: 5100's
Question: what is the best method for testing the condition of the shocks on the truck/how do I determine if they are truly bad? My rig is very "rollie Pollie" and it seems like its getting worse. I probably have atleast 30K on them. Do I go with another MFG?

3rd Issue: Wheels to small (need a bit more clearance)
Question: I would like to go a bit bigger 285/70/17 but I'm running the TRD pro rims that are 7" wide, specs say 7.5 is minimum for the 285's. I have loved my Generals and want to go with the x3's but am I really screwed to run smaller tires with that width? or do I have to go even bigger and run 255/80/17's?

4th Issue: Bit more lift in front (more clearance)
Question: If I go any higher I most likely will need the extra adjustment with the tie in to issue 2 and 3, which brings me back into Aftermarket Uppers. I have gotten split info between Moog/Uniball and still cant decide whats right for me. (remember shitty state of MN and heavy daily and offroad use) I want strongest most maintenance free as possible considering. Is there a 3rd choice? any real world product recommendations from people in similar situations?

As you can see all these affect each other and is a huge decision. I don't want to tackle this in pieces as cost of doing that will be a lot greater than fixing all at once and easier on me and my mates. Bottom line is I trust real people a lot more than mfg reps and there is a ton of experience and knowledge here and I hope with this outlet that I can make the best choice possible for this front end re-work. THANKS IN ADVANCE

 

[Jetboy]

1. I have no idea. Rubber bushings are a lot more expensive to manufacture than poly - and they use them for a good reason - they are quiet and offer better dampening. They also are more flexible. That can be good and bad. I haven't had aftermarket LCA bushings to compare.

2. The standard way is to bounce on a corner and if it corrects quickly, the dampener is probably working correctly. 4Runners will almost always be a bit rollie pollie - especially in the rear due to narrow spring spacing. It's a trade off to add more articulation without intrusion into the cabin for longer springs that Toyota made. If you're loaded up with a lot of gear - it's a lot worse. Lifting also makes it worse in two ways - the obvious raising COG, but also the track bar is not out of level so the forces tend to cause more sway. An adjustable length track bar isn't going to help. You need to correct the angle. So you'd need a new or bolt on bracket extension on the top side. If it's 1" probably no big deal. If you have a 3" lift in the rear it can become a problem. I'd start by lowering the COG as much as possible. Then stiffer rear shocks are probably next on the list for me. - but I have KDSS, so that's not really an issue. KDSS is how Toyota fixed it.

3. 285's should be fine on your wheels. It's not ideal - but I would just run them. Alternatively Trail wheels are pretty cheap used and better in a number of ways. Better offset for larger tires and less rubbing. They also have a protected valve stem. Depending on your trails, that can be important. One of the wagons on my Rubicon run ripped a valve stem out - in the water - so I have no idea what caught it. My wheels have big scrapes right across the stem area into the aluminum. (They got chewed up pretty good). The trail wheels are actually pretty close to having rock rings by design. I'd pick up a set if you have room for 2 sets of wheels/tires and keep street tires on the TRD Pro wheels. I have Limited wheels for street driving with 33" tires on them. Also FWIW - I've run P rated 285s and have had one flat in 30k miles including a lot of Moab and the Rubicon. I'm sure there's some trail somewhere that is made of razor sharp shale and P rated tires wouldn't work - but for me they've been pretty darn durable. If you're using them as a daily diver tire too - p rated tires can be a good option to keep weight down. I would NOT buy Toyo AT2s. I have them. They're terrible to balance and make crappy street tires. They make pretty good offroad tires. Obviously if you want MTs then there are pretty much only E rated LTs.

Another size to consider - although it's $$ is 34x10.5x17. That's pretty close to a 255 80 17 - same height at 33.5" and about 1" wider, and probably fits better in some ways than a 285 70 17. I have 275 60 20's as street tires - and they're almost identical to the 34x10.5x17 except only 33.1 vs 33.5 height - same width. They rub slightly on uncut bumper. No rub on the body mount.


4. I would go with ball joint UCAs. Uniballs may be stronger - but the UCA has minimal loading by design. Even the OEM UCAs will not fail at the ball joint. They will tear the weld out on the bushings before the ball joint fails from an impact. If the ball joint breaks its a result of flexing it outside of its range and the cam motion at the limit prying the ball free of the socket. Aftermarket UCAs with ball joints should solve that problem. For me - I would not use uniball UCAs again. Sealed Ball joints are better for this application IMO. Mostly for maintenance reasons.

- the pic below is from a 200 series that had about 15,000 SCORE series race miles when it broke. In stock full class you have to run OEM control arms. The ball joint isn't the weak link.

Good luck!

 

[sinks88]

for anyone else here is the lower OEM UCA bushings for a 2014:

2014 4Runner SR5 (6 Cylinders 4.0 Liter 1GRFE) Suspension Components (4Wd)

 

[RyanEJ25]

With that many miles it might be worth it to buy rebuildable shocks. If not upgrade to the Bilstein 6112/5160. 5100s do have a lifetime warranty I think so hit up Bilstein and see what they say.

I have Icon UCA, which I run with no issues, and they have a Delta joint now which looks pretty cool. Apparently people have issues with the uniball but you know the internet.

I have TRD PRO rims with KO2 in a 285/70 and they recommend no smaller than a 7 wide rim. I have aired down to about 10-12 psi to see if the bead would pop and it didn't although I didn't go super hard.

I attached a pic of my 4runner with coilovers and I get plenty of front end clearance. It's a bit high for me but will settle with a front bumper.

 

[sinks88]

3. 285's should be fine on your wheels. It's not ideal - but I would just run them. Alternatively Trail wheels are pretty cheap used and better in a number of ways. Better offset for larger tires and less rubbing. They also have a protected valve stem. Depending on your trails, that can be important. One of the wagons on my Rubicon run ripped a valve stem out - in the water - so I have no idea what caught it. My wheels have big scrapes right across the stem area into the aluminum. (They got chewed up pretty good). The trail wheels are actually pretty close to having rock rings by design. I'd pick up a set if you have room for 2 sets of wheels/tires and keep street tires on the TRD Pro wheels. I have Limited wheels for street driving with 33" tires on them. Also FWIW - I've run P rated 285s and have had one flat in 30k miles including a lot of Moab and the Rubicon. I'm sure there's some trail somewhere that is made of razor sharp shale and P rated tires wouldn't work - but for me they've been pretty darn durable. If you're using them as a daily diver tire too - p rated tires can be a good option to keep weight down. I would NOT buy Toyo AT2s. I have them. They're terrible to balance and make crappy street tires. They make pretty good offroad tires. Obviously if you want MTs then there are pretty much only E rated LTs.


Good luck!

I still have my stockers which I actually was planning on running as a trail wheel and those are 7.5 so that will help (I had forgotten that)

 

[sinks88]

Anyone have Delta Joint Experience yet?:

2003-UP Toyota 4Runner Delta Joint Tubular Upper Control Arm Kit

 

[Engineer]

First, I want to see that paint job/wrap in person - I have never seen you around minneapolis granted I live/work in the west bloomington/edina area with trips "out to" EP and Downtown occasionally. - Meet you at your favorite place this weekend?

thoughts below in red, pretty much align with [MENTION=118321]Jetboy[/MENTION]

This place has been a great source for info and I need to dip into the pot a bit more:

I now have about 85k on my 2014 and now need to do some changes that behoove me to plan out correctly: (fyi, while this is a daily I do offroad quite a bit and I live in the worst place for vehicles: Minnesota.)

My first issue is my Lower Control Arm Bushings are shot, My second issue is with my 5100's (those feel shot), my third issue is my wheels are a bit too small and my last issue is I'm a bit too low in front.

1st issue: lower bushings:
Question: Do I go OEM or Aftermarket? If aftermarket....has anyone with a 5th gen started replacing bushings, and what did you use?(company/items)
I would go with OEM all day, or at least stick with Rubber

2nd Issue: 5100's
Question: what is the best method for testing the condition of the shocks on the truck/how do I determine if they are truly bad? My rig is very "rollie Pollie" and it seems like its getting worse. I probably have atleast 30K on them. Do I go with another MFG? [COLOR="red" [MENTION=118321]Jetboy[/MENTION] described a great method for testing, I have a hard time believing they are toast with only 30k but its possible. If you were happy with how they have performed I would stick with those or OME [/COLOR]

[B]3rd Issue[/B]: Wheels to small (need a bit more clearance)
[U]Question[/U]: I would like to go a bit bigger 285/70/17 but I'm running the TRD pro rims that are 7" wide, specs say 7.5 is minimum for the 285's. I have loved my Generals and want to go with the x3's but am I really screwed to run smaller tires with that width? or do I have to go even bigger and run 255/80/17's? [COLOR="red"]I am not an expert but my understanding is that those are recommendations and in general the narrower the rim the less likely to pop a bead when aired down - my assumption is that to narrow of a rim will cause wear issues with the tire at normal pressures but I would not have much concerns about running 285's on a 7"rim - Granted some places may refuse to mount them[/COLOR]

4th Issue: Bit more lift in front (more clearance)
Question: If I go any higher I most likely will need the extra adjustment with the tie in to issue 2 and 3, which brings me back into Aftermarket Uppers. I have gotten split info between Moog/Uniball and still cant decide whats right for me. (remember shitty state of MN and heavy daily and offroad use) I want strongest most maintenance free as possible considering. Is there a 3rd choice? any real world product recommendations from people in similar situations?
I have Camburg Ball Joint Arms and have already had to rebuild(replace the ball joint) them once in 40k so I would think that Ball joint arms would be even worse .

As you can see all these affect each other and is a huge decision. I don't want to tackle this in pieces as cost of doing that will be a lot greater than fixing all at once and easier on me and my mates. Bottom line is I trust real people a lot more than mfg reps and there is a ton of experience and knowledge here and I hope with this outlet that I can make the best choice possible for this front end re-work. THANKS IN ADVANCE

If it was me I would replace lower bushings with OEM, get a set of Camburg or similar UCA w/ ball joints, new tires 285/70R17's in your choice of AT/MT and if they are truly bad a new set of shocks from Bilstein or OME - Someone mentioned above the lifetime warranty, if they are truly bad make sure to contact them about what they can/will do for you.

 

[Jetboy]

Also - My soap box speech... forgive me - Aftermarket UCA's are outrageously expensive for a very simple to manufacture part. They SHOULD cost around $150-250. And they do for other vehicles. For example: https://www.summitracing.com/parts/...QKdlx_DKOKBF0tK9xXeCkiDaCYh4wMmRoC8MgQAvD_BwE

Why ones for a Toyota are 2-4 times as expensive I can't figure out. Especially when you can buy new OEM style with rubber bushings for around $60ea and they are a lot more complex and expensive to manufacture than tubular ones. And they're plenty strong. All they really need to do is slightly alter the stamp to move the ball joint a few mm, and set it at a 15 or so degree angle so it won't bind under long travel front coilovers.

But... be VERY careful with off-brand arms. I've paid the price for buying EBAY control arms that are a camburg knockoff. http://www.toyota-4runner.org/5th-gen-t4rs/227005-ebay-uniball-ucas-warning-w-pics.html


So - just something to consider. I went back to OEM arms. I'll eventually build my own when I have some time to mess with it. Alternatively I might order direct from the manufacturer $190/set delivered. More like what it should cost. I would not go this route unless you're comfortable with evaluating the manufacturing yourself. Next time I'll do a bit of extra testing before I'd install them. : https://www.aliexpress.com/item/H-T...lgo_pvid=bc3ea0d1-a01d-45f2-aa24-eecf1548e1c4

 

[sinks88]

Also - My soap box speech... forgive me - Aftermarket UCA's are outrageously expensive for a very simple to manufacture part. They SHOULD cost around $150-250.

Why ones for a Toyota are 2-4 times as expensive I can't figure out. Especially when you can buy new OEM style with rubber bushings for around $60ea and they are a lot more complex and expensive to manufacture than tubular ones. And they're plenty strong. All they really need to do is slightly alter the stamp to move the ball joint a few mm, and set it at a 15 or so degree angle so it won't bind under long travel front coilovers.

So - just something to consider. I went back to OEM arms. I'll eventually build my own when I have some time to mess with it. Alternatively I might order direct from the manufacturer $190/set delivered. More like what it should cost. I would not go this route unless you're comfortable with evaluating the manufacturing yourself. Next time I'll do a bit of extra testing before I'd install them. : https://www.aliexpress.com/item/H-T...lgo_pvid=bc3ea0d1-a01d-45f2-aa24-eecf1548e1c4

I TOTALLY AGREE!!!! This "overlanding/offroading" world is full of vultures making money off the well to do. I have pretty tight budgets and sometimes regret buying a 40K vehicle to do these kind of things to (offroading) but like I said due to my budget I wanted a "do it all" vehicle and this was my choice. And now after some very rewarding miles I need to do smart upgrades. I would be interested in picking your mind more about the UCAs IE: like that last link to the Hilux parts...are those compatible with or 4Rs?

 

[wfo9]

I TOTALLY AGREE!!!! This "overlanding/offroading" world is full of vultures making money off the well to do. I have pretty tight budgets and sometimes regret buying a 40K vehicle to do these kind of things to (offroading) but like I said due to my budget I wanted a "do it all" vehicle and this was my choice. And now after some very rewarding miles I need to do smart upgrades. I would be interested in picking your mind more about the UCAs IE: like that last link to the Hilux parts...are those compatible with or 4Rs?

:violin: Oh, cry me a river. The nerve of those vultures trying to make living off the well to do. Give me a frigging break.

You want to play, you better be willing to pay.

Do you know what it takes to run a business in this country? Do you have any idea how high costs are for a small mfg company. I'm personally proud to pay top dollar to companies that make high quality parts and stand behind them right here in the good ol USA.

I've been around here for a while. Seen lots of people try to cut corners and cheap out. Results are always the same in the end. Suspension, wheels, tires... is not the area to save a buck. If you are a master fabricator... fantastic go build your own... Or if you have the skills to evaluate materials and trust your life and others based on some junk you got on aliBaba go for it.

 

[sinks88]

:violin: Oh, cry me a river. The nerve of those vultures trying to make living off the well to do. Give me a frigging break.

You want to play, you better be willing to pay.

Do you know what it takes to run a business in this country? Do you have any idea how high costs are for a small mfg company. I'm personally proud to pay top dollar to companies that make high quality parts and stand behind them right here in the good ol USA.

I've been around here for a while. Seen lots of people try to cut corners and cheap out. Results are always the same in the end. Suspension, wheels, tires... is not the area to save a buck. If you are a master fabricator... fantastic go build your own... Or if you have the skills to evaluate materials and trust your life and others based on some junk you got on aliBaba go for it.

Whoa....settle down....sheesh.

If you bothered to look at anything in this thread or in my signature you can see I'm supporting these businesses you speak of.

But 1K for UCAs are overkill. Excuse me for trying to get a product that protects my investment at a reasonable price.

 

[wfo9]

Whoa....settle down....sheesh.

If you bothered to look at anything in this thread or in my signature you can see I'm supporting these businesses you speak of.

But 1K for UCAs are overkill. Excuse me for trying to get a product that protects my investment at a reasonable price.

Nothing wrong with looking for a reasonable price.. Just like there is nothing wrong with demanding top dollar for quality parts.... It is a free market. Nobody is being taken advantage of...

But there is a pattern you will see over and over here. People will pay happily for cosmetic BS. Then they want to cut corners on the stuff that matters and then they complain and have a million questions about how to get what they really want.

If I see another post on what settings to get 5100s at x height... my head is going to explode LOL Buy a dam coil over and be done with it....

You don't need to spend 1k to get decent UCAs.

 

[MeefZah]

I still have my stockers which I actually was planning on running as a trail wheel and those are 7.5 so that will help (I had forgotten that)

The pictured wheel is 7.0" (stock SR5).

285/70 will fit 7.0" fine.