Adding car seat tie downs, worth it? Car seat users please chime in.

[phattyduck]

I was a certified car seat installer but I have since let my certification lapse. If you only have the one child and are using a forward facing seat then put them in the middle. I know you said that you want to save cargo room but I would be more interested in the safety of the child. If you place the seat in the middle you can use your body weight, put your knee down in the seat, or have another adult "sit" in it to really mash it down. You will be able to tighten the center belt tight enough that the seat will not move. You don't want any movement of the seat, side to side, front to back, when the child is in it.

Good point here. While the lap-only is much worse for adults, the lap-only belt is much easier to work with for most car seat installs. With the right technique, you can get a seat TIGHT in there.

Both our original infant bucket (with base - Chicco Keyfit 30) and current convertible seat (Britax Boulevard Click Tight) don't need or use the belt lock of the vehicle - it is built in to the safety seat or base. Otherwise, the advice to pull the belt all the way out is correct for the outer seating locations.

Also, a middle-seat mounting allows the seat to extend between the front seats. Its actually the only way our current seat fits into our '08 Outback comfortably. With baby #2 on the way, we will be shopping for a new car at some point to replace it due to that issue.

-Charlie

 

[phattyduck]

I carried my neice the other day and used the seat belt and in a pinch, strung out the top strap and attached it to a floor tie down in the rear cargo space. Is this "wrong" to do if you have a pre-2001?

The seatbelt is very safe to use (at least as safe as LATCH, if used correctly) and the cargo tie-down as a top tether is probably safer than nothing. You made the right choice.

-Charlie

 

[rickmum]

I bought my 98 after my son was born, so I didn't use a baby car seat in my Runner but I also wouldn't want to. I'd only trust the latch system.

He has a forward facing toddler seat now and I use the seatbelt + center tether attached to the stock cargo tie-down behind the seat on the floor of the cargo area.
There's very little sideways movement after I tighten the living Christ out of the tether.

I think, after reading this thread, I'll try the center seat in the back and tighten the seatbelt down to see which way feels safer.

 

[JZiggy]

The seatbelt is very safe to use (at least as safe as LATCH, if used correctly) and the cargo tie-down as a top tether is probably safer than nothing. You made the right choice.

-Charlie

Before I installed the 01-02 seat back frames I used the cargo tie down. I think it serves OK in a pinch but since it's not designed for a car seat there's no certainly it will do the job correctly. Toyota does offer a pre-01 tether and bolt that bolts down into the floor. It's ugly and an in a bad spot but it is an option.

 

[JZiggy]

I was a certified car seat installer but I have since let my certification lapse. If you only have the one child and are using a forward facing seat then put them in the middle. I know you said that you want to save cargo room but I would be more interested in the safety of the child. If you place the seat in the middle you can use your body weight, put your knee down in the seat, or have another adult "sit" in it to really mash it down. You will be able to tighten the center belt tight enough that the seat will not move. You don't want any movement of the seat, side to side, front to back, when the child is in it. I have worked hundreds of crashes in the last 19 years, you DO NOT want an unrestrained/not properly restrained child in a car... I have actually worked a crash with a 3rd gen 4Runner. Lady hit black ice, rolled her 4Runner, rolled down a large embankment into the ditch, upside down. Mom crawled out the broken driver's side glass but couldn't get baby out. I arrived and the car was smoking, imminent fire risk, Cut the belt on the car, pulled healthy happy kid out seat and all, unharmed. I've also worked them where it took me 2 hours to cut the kid out from underneath the gas and brake pedals.

Speaking as a dad -- THANK YOU for your service!!

I've sometimes wondered how tight toddler seats and car seat bases really need to be to work effectively. I'm usually able to crank the seat belt down pretty hard so the car seat can't slide around, but I've never had to put my knee in it to get it that tight.

For cars with a reclining rear seat I will often lean the seat back, install the car seat tight, and then lean the rear seat back up to lever down on the car seat. Works pretty well actually.

 

[JZiggy]

I agree with phattyduck and others about LATCH. I stopped using it in my Leaf and Acura because the seatbelt felt like it held the car seat more securely. Be sure to pull the seatbelt all the way out...it will make a distinctive ratcheting sound when it goes back in and that overrides the inertia-activation in the seatbelt and makes it lock.

The factory cargo tie-down works fine as a rear anchor. I also added one on each wheelwell so I could have the carseat as well as cargo tied-down securely.

Inside the wheelwell I installed a small 2x3" 16 gauge steel backing plate between the body and the nut on the bottom. It's more reinforcing than the factory used and if you were in a really bad accident it would help prevent the nut and washer from pulling through the sheet metal.

Congrats on the upcoming new addition!

Do you have any more pics of your install here? I guess you pulled the carpet back to drill the hole in the body?

I really like this mod, I may do it as well just for more cargo tie down points.

 

[techno]

I added the proper Toyota anchor because I wasn't happy with how much my car seat moved around even when cinched down properly. The bracket only costs a few bucks and uses an existing welded nut that's for this exact purpose. Downside was I had to cut a small slot in the cargo mat.

 

[la79]

[MENTION=199958]1biker[/MENTION] I did the '01/'02 retrofit in to my '00 so I could add top tethers. You will not get LATCH connectors, only top tether anchors. This means you will need to install your car seat with a seatbelt no matter what type you are installing as they did not add LATCH until '03. The tether anchors for the outboard seats are located on the back of the seat and the center seat anchor is located on the hinge in the center that acts as the middle pivot for both seat backs.

'01 hinge left, '00 hinge right

So first off, what kind of car seat are you installing? A rear-facing only infant seat, convertible seat, booster? And how many (Twins, more than 1 kid, etc)? Will there be more than the child in the back?

The top tether anchors only help for forward facing seats since the majority of rear facing seats do not utilize the top tether (Britax had seats that used top tether for rear facing, but phased them out for anti-rebound bars).

To retrofit, you just need the upper part of the seats and the hinge. To make it easier you would get the carpet and backing panel too, but it can be modded. I got seats with cloth seat covers, so I took my leather covers off and put them on the new seats.

To get the back cover off, pop off the panel which uses plastic clips that are attached to the slightly-stronger-than-cardboard backing

If you have to swap seat covers, undo all the hog rings:

then pull back enough to squeeze the tabs to get the guides out for the head restraints

Pull off the covers and switch. You can switch the foam too if the new seat is in better condition.

To mod the back panel you need to measure and cut where the opening will need to be. Just cut deep enough to cut the board but not the carpet. Once the hole is correct then cut an X in the carpet and staple back:

and then when attached it should look something like this, driver complete and passenger not:

Easy peasy. Was it worth it? I think so. It didn't cost much, didn't take much time and using a top tether on a car seat helps a lot during a crash. In addition some car seats require, not just recommend, it for proper install. An example would be a Britax Clicktight Frontier requires it for kids over 65 lbs when using harness.

Hello, sorry to revive an old post. But I'm attempting this with a 96 4Runner. I have already procured the parts. But I had a few questions:

What did you use to remove the hog rings and put them back? They are such a paint to take off. I'm thinking I may just want to cut them off and get new ones. Did you get new ones and take that route? If so what kind did you get?

When you began to cut the cardboard backing what did you use to cut it? Utility knife? I don't want to risk cutting the fabric on the other side

 

[JZiggy]

Hello, sorry to revive an old post. But I'm attempting this with a 96 4Runner. I have already procured the parts. But I had a few questions:

What did you use to remove the hog rings and put them back? They are such a paint to take off. I'm thinking I may just want to cut them off and get new ones. Did you get new ones and take that route? If so what kind did you get?

When you began to cut the cardboard backing what did you use to cut it? Utility knife? I don't want to risk cutting the fabric on the other side

Here's my writeup on it with the pliers and new rings I used
https://www.toyota-4runner.org/2729508-post92.html

 

[la79]

Here's my writeup on it with the pliers and new rings I used
https://www.toyota-4runner.org/2729508-post92.html

Exactly what I needed. The used frames I found had a bit of rust and some weird glue residue on them. Did you notice that on your old frames when you we’re in the process of replacing them? Would it help to clean them off?

Also what did you use to cut the cardboard backing? I want to be pretty exact and not cut through the carpeting.

 

[JZiggy]

Exactly what I needed. The used frames I found had a bit of rust and some weird glue residue on them. Did you notice that on your old frames when you we’re in the process of replacing them? Would it help to clean them off?

Also what did you use to cut the cardboard backing? I want to be pretty exact and not cut through the carpeting.

I think I just used a box knife with a brand new blade.

 

[phattyduck]

I think I just used a box knife with a brand new blade.

With adjustable blade positions, you can get just the backing without messing with the carpet - watch your fingers! Then cut the carpet 'X' after. Cut under sized to be able to adjust fit.

-Charlie

 

[TRDFerguson]

I use the LATCH system when the carseats are in my wifes WK2 Grand Cherokee, but on the slim chance that they go into my '98, I am always super pleased with how much tighter I can get the seats by just using the seat belts. Not to mention its easier too. So I would say that seatbelts are more than adequate. We use Recaro ProRide carseats.

 

[phattyduck]

I use the LATCH system when the carseats are in my wifes WK2 Grand Cherokee, but on the slim chance that they go into my '98, I am always super pleased with how much tighter I can get the seats by just using the seat belts. Not to mention its easier too. So I would say that seatbelts are more than adequate. We use Recaro ProRide carseats.

Using the seatbelts is safer than the Lower Anchor part of the LATCH system, assuming the child seat is installed correctly (big assumption...). The lower anchors are also only rated to 65lbs TOTAL weight. Most convertible seats + occupant will get over that weight well before the child 'graduates' to a booster. There is no weight limit on normal seat belts...

Adding the upper tether (the "T" in LATCH) is separate issue, and large additional level of safety whenever it can be used - and the subject of this thread.

-Charlie

 

[AntleredRuin]

Completely coincidentally (I hadn't seen this thread till just now) I actually got back from a car seat inspection a couple hours ago.

I have the Chicco Keyfit 30 and have a base installed in both my wife's '05 Sequoia w/LATCH and in my '99 4runner w/o LATCH. I had the Sequoia inspected because that's where the baby is gonna be the majority of the time.

The inspector (a police officer) said that he much prefers the normal seat belt to the latch system, because the seat belt can withstand several thousand pounds of crash force. No carseat+baby is ever going to top the max weight a seat belt can withstand, but in a bad enough wreck, he said that even a carseat+baby under the 65lb weight limit for LATCH could break loose. Pretty much, the overall weight multiplies in a wreck. I'm not sure of the physics and formulas, etc, but it makes sense to me.

He said he's seen more bad wrecks when people use LATCH vs people using the seat belt.

The LATCH system is just there because so many people were getting the normal seat belt wrong. They wouldn't ratchet it, they wouldn't strap it through right, etc. LATCH is easier to install correctly, so the law said that that this is now mandatory for all the people who didn't know how to read an instruction manual. A weaker seat belt is better than an improperly set up seat belt.

Based on this, I don't think it's necessary (or maybe even a good idea) to convert to the '01+ seats with the LATCH tiedowns. The normal seat belt is far superior. I had the Sequoia LATCHed, but I think I'm gonna use the normal seat belt now.


And an aside: damn is it annoying to schedule an inspection. People say to just stop by any fire/police station and someone will come on out and help, no questions asked. Not so in Houston, at least not any more. I called around and here's what I found: There's an official list of inspection stations in the Houston area (and it's only like 30 official locations) and most have bogus hours (like only between 9 and 12 on Mondays for example), and the appointment has to be scheduled days in advance.
Apparently there have been a shit-ton of lawsuits from people getting in wrecks and child is injured when a Good-Samaritan 'last minute inspection' officer/fire fighter said it was good to go.
So now no one will do it unless scheduled, certified, waiver signed, etc. I get it, but damn.

 

[JZiggy]

As Charlie noted: this upgrade is *only* about adding the center tie down support needed for forward facing seats. The 01-02 models have this provision. It has nothing to do with the LATCH stuff. In all cases the seatbelt has to be used.

 

[fourfive]

Using the seatbelts is safer than the Lower Anchor part of the LATCH system, assuming the child seat is installed correctly (big assumption...). The lower anchors are also only rated to 65lbs TOTAL weight. Most convertible seats + occupant will get over that weight well before the child 'graduates' to a booster. There is no weight limit on normal seat belts.

That's interesting. I had no idea what the lower anchors were rated for. On my wife's 5th gen I've always used the lower anchors & seat belt but it was because I didn't know any better. I don't remember if there was anything specific in the instructions about using both & the store that showed us how to install it didn't mention anything about it & I didn't think to ask. When in doubt I just went extra. I assume the 65lb rating is for the straps and not the actual metal bracket on the vehicle?

 

[phattyduck]

That's interesting. I had no idea what the lower anchors were rated for. On my wife's 5th gen I've always used the lower anchors & seat belt but it was because I didn't know any better. I don't remember if there was anything specific in the instructions about using both & the store that showed us how to install it didn't mention anything about it & I didn't think to ask. When in doubt I just went extra. I assume the 65lb rating is for the straps and not the actual metal bracket on the vehicle?

Nope, it is the lower anchor metal bracket on the vehicle that is limited to 65lbs (legally). Don't use both the LATCH lower anchors and seat belts - one only.

We actually paid someone to check our seats (wife set it up) - the guy was real, knowledgeable and certified - and even helped us pick a different seat when the one we had purchased didn't fit right in our car at the time. AND met us at like 7pm after work to do it. After seeing the techniques, etc. I can see why something like 95% of car seat installations are wrong in some way...

-Charlie

 

[gamefreakgc]

Props to the dads taking the time to make sure their little ones are safe. My wife and I often move the car seats between the Nissan and the 4Runner and it's never to be taken lightly. It only takes one time to be negligent about it & someone gets hurt.

 

[fourfive]

Speaking as a dad -- THANK YOU for your service!!

I've sometimes wondered how tight toddler seats and car seat bases really need to be to work effectively. I'm usually able to crank the seat belt down pretty hard so the car seat can't slide around, but I've never had to put my knee in it to get it that tight.

For cars with a reclining rear seat I will often lean the seat back, install the car seat tight, and then lean the rear seat back up to lever down on the car seat. Works pretty well actually.

Same. I've also wondered what the appropriate amount of tightness for baby/toddler seats were. I wanna say I was told to use the bubble level on the seat base as a guide but every time I would cinch down on the seat belt it would throw off the bubble level. Good to know that I can crank down harder on the seat belt.