Alignment issues - can't make sense of it

[jacob7071]

I have a '21 Limited 2wd, and I recently added Dobinsons C59-302 / C59-505 for a 3/2 lift along with JBA UCAs. I had the alignment done, and I've never seen a more perfect alignment report.



But, the truck was pulling slightly to the right. I also had 1/2" driver's side lean, about 2" of rake. So I decided to put a 1/4" spacer on the front driver's side to help correct the lean. I don't have a rear spacer yet, and I'll probably replace the springs to reduce the rake, so I didn't mess with the rear yet. Got another alignment, and told them it was pulling a little to the right.



Everything is in spec on the new report except driver side caster? I thought lifting the front reduces the caster? Also, the truck pulls even harder to the right now! There are a few things I don't understand.

1. I didn't touch any bolts on the passenger side when installing the spacer except the sway bar end link. But somehow the toe goes from 0.09 to -0.08? The caster and camber moved a little, but maybe that can happen when I lift the other side? But how can the toe move that much when I didn't touch the cam bolts?
2. On the 2nd report, only camber and caster changed, and from what I understand, caster can't be adjusted. So how can caster go from 4.1 and in spec to 4.7 and out of spec just by changing camber?
3. I've read that the truck will tend to pull to the higher caster side, but in my case, it's pulling to the lower side? Was my research wrong? Does it actually pull to the lower caster side?
4. Are there any adjustments that can be made to get the DS caster back in spec? e.g. If I maybe tighten or loosen the outer tie rod a turn or two, then have them adjust the cam bolts, will that do anything to the caster? Or could caster even be causing the pulling at all?

Just for my own education, are camber and toe both adjusted via the cam bolts? Or do they have to touch anything else in the front suspension in order to align properly? I'm wondering if they adjusted something else that might cause a pull. I would love it if there's some way to get rid of that pull to the right.

 

[fkheath]

Just for my own education, are camber and toe both adjusted via the cam bolts? Or do they have to touch anything else in the front suspension in order to align properly? I'm wondering if they adjusted something else that might cause a pull. I would love it if there's some way to get rid of that pull to the right.

Toe is adjusted by the tie rod ends.

 

[Lexington]

How old are the tires? Old worn tires can cause the car to drift left or right even though the alignment is right.

 

[fkheath]

You should do a careful inspection of the joints, especially the tie rod ends. To have the toe change from + to - makes me think something is loose. Be sure to check the ball joints too.

A pull to one side can also be caused by the crown in most roads (roads are crowned so water drains off to the side, rather than puddle). Nothing you can do about that. It is hard to find a road that is not crowned.

Some states require cars to be aligned to pull to the right. That is so, if the driver falls asleep, the car goes off the road to the right, instead of into the opposite traffic.

Interesting to note that every time you do something on the front, the rear changes slightly. Since the 4Runner has a solid rear axle, and there are no alignment adjustments on the rear, obviously the rear really didn't change. The changes you show in the rear is probably just the accuracy of the equipment used. Thus, the numbers shown on the front could also be off due to the the accuracy of the equipment used.

 

[AuSeeker]

Some states require cars to be aligned to pull to the right. That is so, if the driver falls asleep, the car goes off the road to the right, instead of into the opposite traffic.

Would you please post links...any reputable links to any state that requires this, to my knowledge there are none??

IMHO that would put the states at a liability and they would be getting sued left and right!!

 

[RESP1]

Don't pay attention to the color

You've stated that you've modified suspension parts on your 4runner. When you take it to an alignment shop and they don't know what they're doing they will put in the specifications provided by the manufacturer for a 4runner without any modifications. If they attempt to make sure every toe angle, caster, etc. falls within the specifications so it's green then they can actually make the alignment worse. Don't pay attention to if it's green or red because those are the specs for a stock truck if your truck has completely modified suspension different size tires rims spacers etc that alignment for that truck could be solid red across the whole page and be a perfect alignment. Make sure they're not basing everything off of a color on a piece of paper but actually based on what's right for your truck

 

[WEAK_E90]

i just had mine re-aligned and the results are perfect as they were last year when I had it done as well...

Some roads i can ride over a mile without touching the wheel but most the car pulls to the right as it did before. (this isnt why i had an alignment done) but just to confirm the crowning and also I believe there are some "things" in place regarding if a driver fell asleep the car goes off to the ditch.

overall doesnt sound any different then what mine is either (i waived goodbye to troubleshooting that a long time ago)

camber and caster can change together with the LCAs (lower control arms). By adjusting the cam bolts it also moves the caster (as it pushes/pulls the LCA joint where it meets everything else). I would maybe check your LCA bushings to see if they are torn or broken (thus if they can shift in the 2x mounting spots to forward/back or in/out this would effect your camber).

 

[gordonp]

Just for my own education, are camber and toe both adjusted via the cam bolts?

Yes.
The toe is subsequently corrected with the tie-rod end adjustments.

JBA makes their "High Caster" upper control arms with additional 3deg of built-in caster. This makes it super-easy to hit the Toyota OEM specs when you lift, but also allows you to achieve even more caster (I have a 2.5" lift, and my alignment shop gives me 5deg Caster). For me, especially highway driving, I enjoy the 5deg caster for the stable lane-keeping and no-fatigue driving. You don't say if your JBA UCA's are the (popular) High Caster or not... but if they are, you may enjoy 4deg of Caster (or more).

I am really not liking your half-degree difference in caster though. I told my alignment shop that I spend a lot of my time in the fast lane with leftward crowning, and I didn't want any road-crown correction at all. I am happy with exactly equal caster and camber on both sides. BTW - I didn't pull numbers out of my butt for the shop, but rather I went in with some research + experience and then discussed with them what I hoped to achieve - use their expertise.

My alignment shop specializes in custom alignments and is very happy to tweak settings to customer request, even if it is outside OEM settings. I just sign a waiver.

Good luck!

 

[jacob7071]

How old are the tires? Old worn tires can cause the car to drift left or right even though the alignment is right.

Tires are KO2s with less than 60K miles. They are wearing a little unevenly which has caused some balancing issues, but no pulling prior to the Dobinsons lift.

 

[jacob7071]

You should do a careful inspection of the joints, especially the tie rod ends. To have the toe change from + to - makes me think something is loose. Be sure to check the ball joints too.

A pull to one side can also be caused by the crown in most roads (roads are crowned so water drains off to the side, rather than puddle). Nothing you can do about that. It is hard to find a road that is not crowned.

I did check the tie rods when I installed the lift. Everything was tight, and truck only has 22K miles (and 2wd with no offroading) so nothing should be loose.

The pulling after the first alignment could've been due to crown, but I took it back anyway. Pulling after 2nd alignment was definitely not the crown. It would pull to the right, up the crown, when I moved to the left side of the road. Firestone said there were no adjustments to anything other than cam bolts during alignment (although I asked 2 weeks after, so who knows).

 

[jacob7071]

You've stated that you've modified suspension parts on your 4runner. When you take it to an alignment shop and they don't know what they're doing they will put in the specifications provided by the manufacturer for a 4runner without any modifications. If they attempt to make sure every toe angle, caster, etc. falls within the specifications so it's green then they can actually make the alignment worse. Don't pay attention to if it's green or red because those are the specs for a stock truck if your truck has completely modified suspension different size tires rims spacers etc that alignment for that truck could be solid red across the whole page and be a perfect alignment. Make sure they're not basing everything off of a color on a piece of paper but actually based on what's right for your truck

I would still think, even with it lifted, you'd want camber and toe in spec, right?

 

[jacob7071]

Yes.
The toe is subsequently corrected with the tie-rod end adjustments.

JBA makes their "High Caster" upper control arms with additional 3deg of built-in caster. This makes it super-easy to hit the Toyota OEM specs when you lift, but also allows you to achieve even more caster (I have a 2.5" lift, and my alignment shop gives me 5deg Caster). For me, especially highway driving, I enjoy the 5deg caster for the stable lane-keeping and no-fatigue driving. You don't say if your JBA UCA's are the (popular) High Caster or not... but if they are, you may enjoy 4deg of Caster (or more).

I am really not liking your half-degree difference in caster though. I told my alignment shop that I spend a lot of my time in the fast lane with leftward crowning, and I didn't want any road-crown correction at all. I am happy with exactly equal caster and camber on both sides. BTW - I didn't pull numbers out of my butt for the shop, but rather I went in with some research + experience and then discussed with them what I hoped to achieve - use their expertise.

My alignment shop specializes in custom alignments and is very happy to tweak settings to customer request, even if it is outside OEM settings. I just sign a waiver.

Good luck!

I do have the more popular one. Looks like the other 4Runner UCAs are for drop kits. I wouldn't mind 4+ deg of caster. I just didn't want 4.5 on one side and 3.5 on the other.

Took it back for another alignment yesterday. This report looks even better than the first one. No noticable pull, but I haven't driven it much.

I asked the guy at the front counter why the before measurements from 11/19 are so different from the after measurements on 11/3. He said "potholes can knock your alignment out - you know Houston roads." I told him if the driving I've done in the last 2 weeks knocked the toe that far out of spec (and the drivers side caster back in spec), then their last tech didn't tighten bolts enough.

So first thing I did when I got home was check all cam bolts. Everything is tight, so hopefully this will work.

Thanks for all the help everyone!