Alignment Question

[JSparky]

I wanted to run some numbers by you guys. My trucks been pulling to the right ever since I installed new suspension. Unfortunately I cannot recall if it pulled before my first alignment but after the spring install… I basically installed the lift and drove it straight to the shop. I do know it drove fine before the suspension, so I'm prone to believe it's not a power steering or brake issue, and that nothing is bent.

First shop didn't know what they were doing and either had equipment out of spec or were just incompetent. This new shop I've found seems impressive. All they do is alignments and they've put my truck up on two different racks to verify numbers. Also tried swapping front tires back and forth. They walk through everything with me and genuinely seem to know their stuff, but I'm still having issues. They basically feel that since it's modified there are going to be discrepancies. They feel they can get it to track straight but it will be "seriously out of spec".. we're talking over a degree difference in caster and camber. I know being in spec is kind of a relative term, but do you all recommend I go ahead and try this, or is there something else at play? I've leveled the KDSS lean, it took a few tries with opening the valves but it's sitting almost perfectly level in front now. From what I can tell everything else looks good.

For the specs below. First set is from my first trip to the new shop. I then drove it ~1k easy miles and took it back cause it was still pulling right. Odd thing is the "before" alignment from the second trip shows some changes over the previous settings, namely in the toe setting. Last set is my current settings. It does track straighter but it still pulls right, and I can't help thinking having the caster set so differently isn't right. Lastly, their opinion is they can next adjust driver-side camber to be more positive, but they're afraid of having the truck start to pull left too much. Also, I installed a new track bar between alignments as well to re-center the rear axle, which also happened to pull the rear out of alignment (go figure).

My thoughts are that I'd like to try having caster relatively even, both around 5-degrees, and see what adjusting the camber up on the driver side will do (basically how they set it up originally but increase the difference). Thoughts are much appreciated.



In Order: First trip alignment specs. Drove ~1k easy miles, took it back

 

[gm350reratliff]

Unfortunately, on some vehicles you do have to create a huge caster split to make them drive straight. Although, usually you don't see too much of this on Toyotas. If the numbers are true, I'd increase the camber on both sides to about -.15° on the right and about 0° on the left but keep the caster right where you have it. To me, -.5° is a little too negative,. If it still pulls, I would increase the caster split until it no longer pulled. As a last resort, I would even adjust the tire air pressure, maybe something like 32 on the front left and 38 on the passenger front.

I would also be double checking for anything that may be causing exsessive resistance on the right side like a stuck caliper.

I also noticed the shop had Highlander specs pulled up instead of 4runner specs.

 

[ZJumper]

As a last resort, I would even adjust the tire air pressure, maybe something like 32 on the front left and 38 on the passenger front.

Yeah. No. Don't do this. This is a ghetto band aid fix for the real problem.

Problem is the measurements aren't symmetrical.

Have the shop get the caster on both sides exactly the same. Many times the vehicle will pull to the side with the most positive caster.

Additionally, have them take some toe out. +.11 on both sides can make the vehicle susceptible to tracking with the road imperfections etc.

Try to have the shop adjust caster +4.0 to +4.5 on BOTH sides
Camber at 0.0 to +.2 on both sides
Toe adjust +.03 on both sides

Getting a super precise toe measurement is going to take a bit of time but it can be done.

Adjust. Jounce suspension. Adjust. Jounce. etc.

A competent tech can make it happen.

 

[Maverick]

try custom alignment in mountain view if your current place can't fix it

 

[JSparky]

Unfortunately, on some vehicles you do have to create a huge caster split to make them drive straight. Although, usually you don't see too much of this on Toyotas. If the numbers are true, I'd increase the camber on both sides to about -.15° on the right and about 0° on the left but keep the caster right where you have it. To me, -.5° is a little too negative,. If it still pulls, I would increase the caster split until it no longer pulled. As a last resort, I would even adjust the tire air pressure, maybe something like 32 on the front left and 38 on the passenger front.

I would also be double checking for anything that may be causing exsessive resistance on the right side like a stuck caliper.

I also noticed the shop had Highlander specs pulled up instead of 4runner specs.

Thanks for the advice. I don't have my stock specs with me at the moment, but I know that off-the-lot it didn't require a huge split from side-to-side, which makes me wonder why it would need it now. I spun the wheels yesterday when I had it up in the air for the KDSS fix and resistance felt the same so I don't think it's the brakes.. you mean this isn't a Highlander forum??! I kid, noticed that too. I don't think it'd make a difference though? I'll ask.

Yeah. No. Don't do this. This is a ghetto band aid fix for the real problem.

Problem is the measurements aren't symmetrical.

Have the shop get the caster on both sides exactly the same. Many times the vehicle will pull to the side with the most positive caster.

Additionally, have them take some toe out. +.11 on both sides can make the vehicle susceptible to tracking with the road imperfections etc.

Try to have the shop adjust caster +4.0 to +4.5 on BOTH sides
Camber at 0.0 to +.2 on both sides
Toe adjust +.03 on both sides

Getting a super precise toe measurement is going to take a bit of time but it can be done.

Adjust. Jounce suspension. Adjust. Jounce. etc.

A competent tech can make it happen.

This is what my feelings where. I think I'd like to have it set perfect on side-to-side and go from there. As far as I know it hasn't been perfectly even since I installed the suspension cause I always noted a righthand pull. Everything I've read indicates vehicles pull to the side with the least positive caster so your comment's a new one on me, but either way I feel it's not right considering it wasn't necessary before. I think the next step is to have it setup as you describe, if anything to establish a baseline.

try custom alignment in mountain view if your current place can't fix it

Awesome thanks for the reference. I've been using AlignTechs over in San Jose, but if it doesn't work out all give Custom Alignment a call.

Happy New years everybody!

 

[ZJumper]

You're correct. Pull usually is to the side of the least caster. I was 180 out on my thinking.

Anyway.

Looking closer at your specs, what gets me about it is the rear settings--before and after. On T4R and 99.99% of all (unless you have rear steering) solid rear axle vehicles, adjustments aren't possible. Their toe numbers are all over the map. Granted, the rear measurements fluctuate a bit as you adjust the front, but not like what they have going on.

Makes me suspect about the calibration of the machine...more likely is the guy using it. Especially with having the "Highlander" listed in the header on the paper. That's lack of attention to detail. If he can't get the vehicle right he might be a tech thats only competent enough to put air in bicycle tires.

As Maverick stated, go to a recommended shop and have them get the numbers balanced and the T4R will drive straight.

 

[MyanRagahis]

Did you ever find a solution?
I got an alignment yesterday from a great shop and gave me good numbers. Unfortunately I still have a pull to the right. They mentioned my rear axle was pushed 3/4" to the passenger side due to my rear lift also, and that could be causing my pull.
Did you feel the panhard bar got it tracking straight for you? Trying to see my options before I purchase one.

 

[JSparky]

Did you ever find a solution?
I got an alignment yesterday from a great shop and gave me good numbers. Unfortunately I still have a pull to the right. They mentioned my rear axle was pushed 3/4" to the passenger side due to my rear lift also, and that could be causing my pull.
Did you feel the panhard bar got it tracking straight for you? Trying to see my options before I purchase one.

Hey sorry, old thread passed by me.

I’m no alignment guru but it does look good. One question, have you driven trucks with larger tires before? I ask because they do follow the crown in the road more and f you’re not accustomed to it it may be what you’re describing. I couldn’t confirm if it’s that or an actual alignment issue without driving it. Perhaps someone else can chime in. I can post my current specs if you’re interested, different vehicle but still a 5th gen.

Edit: rear track bar shouldn’t effect tracking much, but I’ve noticed it does influence how the suspension handles larger hits.

 

[MyanRagahis]

Hey sorry, old thread passed by me.

I’m no alignment guru but it does look good. One question, have you driven trucks with larger tires before? I ask because they do follow the crown in the road more and f you’re not accustomed to it it may be what you’re describing. I couldn’t confirm if it’s that or an actual alignment issue without driving it. Perhaps someone else can chime in. I can post my current specs if you’re interested, different vehicle but still a 5th gen.

Edit: rear track bar shouldn’t effect tracking much, but I’ve noticed it does influence how the suspension handles larger hits.

No worries! I haven't, it's really my first vehicle like this. Had an explorer and drove a Tacoma for a bit. I guess I just see so many people on here with a lift and bigger tires or something similar and they explain how well the vehicle handles or drives nice and straight.
I did call back the shop today and he recommended I swap the front two tires. It helped some and in his experience if it helps initially, it could be a tire pull. Which is unfortunate but I'll live with it for the life of the tire until then I suppose.

 

[perf0rmance]

Hey sorry, old thread passed by me.

I’m no alignment guru but it does look good. One question, have you driven trucks with larger tires before? I ask because they do follow the crown in the road more and f you’re not accustomed to it it may be what you’re describing. I couldn’t confirm if it’s that or an actual alignment issue without driving it. Perhaps someone else can chime in. I can post my current specs if you’re interested, different vehicle but still a 5th gen.

Edit: rear track bar shouldn’t effect tracking much, but I’ve noticed it does influence how the suspension handles larger hits.

Where did you go for your alignment?
Also, since the rear axle is solid, would it make much of a difference if I got an alignment before and after raising the rear?

 

[JSparky]

Where did you go for your alignment?
Also, since the rear axle is solid, would it make much of a difference if I got an alignment before and after raising the rear?

Custom Alignment in Mountain View, been using them for a few years now.

I’d probably wait until you have all of your suspension in. While it shouldn’t effect it much, it could throw weight distribution off enough to influence front end alignment. You could call the shop and ask what they recommend too. Best of luck.