Another Alignment Thread (YAY!)

[Virtual TWiT]

2007 SR5 4WD with <70K miles on it got Bilstein 5100s on all 4 corners, the front was set at 1.75" lift, and handled great up to about 60 MPH then felt really twitchy and sensitive and easily drifted. It was a handful.

Today it had an alignment and now pulls a tad to the left and it seems worse at freeway speeds. At 70 MPH it was almost like it has a mind of its own and wanted to drift everywhere. It was scaring other drivers and me.

When I picked it up they told me there was no adjustment for Caster and I just bit my tongue and made a mental note to NEVER go there again.:lasercannon:

Wheel alignment isn't my thing so the question is, are these numbers realistic, why would it be pulling and feel out of control at higher speeds, and does anyone in Nashville TN know a *good* alignment shop/tech.

EDIT: If I jack up the front try to adjust the Caster myself with no load on it will I screw up everything else?

 

[BlackWorksInc]

That Caster is set really low, the spec is 2.5* many people like to have it closer to the 3-4*, (most of the lifted guys like 4*) caster set that low can cause it to wander a bit at speed.

I'm surprised you bit your tongue, I would have just flat out told them they are full of it; its an adjustable cam bolt design on the lower control arms, everything is adjustable. If they want to be lazy and not do it, they have to come up with a better excuse than that. Most times an alignment is done, as long as the end results are in the green for the most part they just "Set the Toe and Let it Go;" which is something that is taught in almost all vocational programs including manufacturer specific ones. Its not exactly the right thing to do most times, but realistically unless the cross measurements are really out or unbalanced, the customer won't notice.

 

[chompster4runner]

That Caster is set really low, the spec is 2.5* many people like to have it closer to the 3-4*, (most of the lifted guys like 4*) caster set that low can cause it to wander a bit at speed.

I'm surprised you bit your tongue, I would have just flat out told them they are full of it; its an adjustable cam bolt design on the lower control arms, everything is adjustable. If they want to be lazy and not do it, they have to come up with a better excuse than that. Most times an alignment is done, as long as the end results are in the green for the most part they just "Set the Toe and Let it Go;" which is something that is taught in almost all vocational programs including manufacturer specific ones. Its not exactly the right thing to do most times, but realistically unless the cross measurements are really out or unbalanced, the customer won't notice.

My caster is set at 3.2/3.4 and the rest of the numbers are identical to his and it still wander or twitch a bit still. Kind of a handful to drive around. Guess I got to take it back and talk to the tech. Pretty sure they're do trial and error.

 

[nevada]

yes, if you start making adjustments you'll screw up everything else.

maybe they said they couldn't adjust the caster, because they used all the adjustment to bring the camber in?

I run into this a lot of lifted/lowered rigs.

or more likely, the adjusters are seized, and they didn't want to mess with getting them to turn. they can sometimes be a real *****!
mine are seized, I still haven't got them to break free.

 

[Virtual TWiT]

That Caster is set really low, the spec is 2.5* many people like to have it closer to the 3-4*, (most of the lifted guys like 4*) caster set that low can cause it to wander a bit at speed.

I'm surprised you bit your tongue, I would have just flat out told them they are full of it; its an adjustable cam bolt design on the lower control arms, everything is adjustable. If they want to be lazy and not do it, they have to come up with a better excuse than that. Most times an alignment is done, as long as the end results are in the green for the most part they just "Set the Toe and Let it Go;" which is something that is taught in almost all vocational programs including manufacturer specific ones. Its not exactly the right thing to do most times, but realistically unless the cross measurements are really out or unbalanced, the customer won't notice.

I'm surprised I didn't say anything either, or drag him out there and point to the bolds on the LCA that are plainly visible. :der: It's bad enough someone besides me was even touching my 4Runner. I may go out there and turn them as far positive as they'll go myself and take it back tomorrow and have them set toe and camber based on max caster (which is what I told them to do in the first place). I did it at S____ and I was nervous about that, but at least it's a "6-month alignment", whatever that means. HA!

 

[Virtual TWiT]

yes, if you start making adjustments you'll screw up everything else.

maybe they said they couldn't adjust the caster, because they used all the adjustment to bring the camber in?

I run into this a lot of lifted/lowered rigs.

or more likely, the adjusters are seized, and they didn't want to mess with getting them to turn. they can sometimes be a real *****!
mine are seized, I still haven't got them to break free.

Thanks! That makes me wonder if it'd be simpler to drop the front to .8", align it again and see if it's better. I didn't want to have to replace the UCAs.

 

[BlackWorksInc]

yes, if you start making adjustments you'll screw up everything else.

maybe they said they couldn't adjust the caster, because they used all the adjustment to bring the camber in?

I run into this a lot of lifted/lowered rigs.

or more likely, the adjusters are seized, and they didn't want to mess with getting them to turn. they can sometimes be a real *****!
mine are seized, I still haven't got them to break free.

I understand that and have run into that myself, but then you tell the customer WHY it cannot be adjusted; instead of making yourself look like an idiot by saying "there is no adjustment to be made" when its clear to most anyone who is mildly aware of their vehicle it can be done.

Also, Toyota (and I am sure 3rd party companies) has "offset" cam bolts that can be ordered (I am not entirely sure how to go about it, as we haven't had to do this yet; but I am aware that the parts are there) to correct alignments of vehicles that may be "maxed" out on adjustment.

Thanks! That makes me wonder if it'd be simpler to drop the front to .8", align it again and see if it's better. I didn't want to have to replace the UCAs.

How much lift are you running?

 

[Virtual TWiT]

How much lift are you running?

1.75" via the front shocks.

 

[meonard]

I believe camber is adjusted via the lower control arm cams, as is caster. If you "max" caster by rotating the front LCA in and the back of the LCA out then camber would be whatever is is at that point. And would not be adjustable without changing caster. In other words camber and caster are adjusted together. Then toe is set via tie rod ends.

Normally I would recommend camber set slightly positive. However in this case I would suggest dropping camber for better handling.

As far as the pull that is most likely going to be a trial and error thing. With an altered suspension all bets are off. Although the -.14 thrust angle could be a contributing factor.

 

[preacher35]

I believe camber is adjusted via the lower control arm cams, as is caster. If you "max" caster by rotating the front LCA in and the back of the LCA out then camber would be whatever is is at that point. And would not be adjustable without changing caster. In other words camber and caster are adjusted together. Then toe is set via tie rod ends.

Normally I would recommend camber set slightly positive. However in this case I would suggest dropping camber for better handling.

As far as the pull that is most likely going to be a trial and error thing. With an altered suspension all bets are off. Although the -.14 thrust angle could be a contributing factor.

My thrust angle is little off as well. So here is a question: Could installing ADJUSTABLE rear LCA/trailing arms (such as these *NEW* Fully Adjustable Rear DOM LCAs) correct said thrust angle?

 

[Virtual TWiT]

I believe camber is adjusted via the lower control arm cams, as is caster. If you "max" caster by rotating the front LCA in and the back of the LCA out then camber would be whatever is is at that point. And would not be adjustable without changing caster. In other words camber and caster are adjusted together. Then toe is set via tie rod ends.

Thanks! That was the tidbit of info I needed.

[/QUOTE]
Normally I would recommend camber set slightly positive. However in this case I would suggest dropping camber for better handling.

As far as the pull that is most likely going to be a trial and error thing. With an altered suspension all bets are off. Although the -.14 thrust angle could be a contributing factor.[/QUOTE]

On a hunch I checked tire pressure (duh) and both left tires were 3 lbs less than the right. I'm normally better about checking. I'll get her back out on the road today and see how much difference it made.

 

[Virtual TWiT]

And...

Thanks for all the input!

I got under it yesterday to make sure the tabs weren't bent over and was relieved to see they weren't. BUT the small end of the CV boots on both sides have slung out a little grease. I didn't expect it but it didn't surprise me much. It's not even a teaspoon's worth on either side. I just ordered a set of clamps.

5574K24 304 Stainless Steel Smooth-Band Worm-Drive Hose Clamp, 3-1/2" to 4-3/8" Clamp Diameter Range, 3/8" Band Width, packs of 5

5574K16 304 Stainless Steel Smooth-Band Worm-Drive Hose Clamp, 1" to 1-5/8" Clamp Diameter Range, 3/8" Band Width, packs of 10
From McMaster-Carr, per a couple of other threads.

A mechanic-friend also suggested zip ties with a drop of super glue in the catch.

I made up my mind to just eat the cash and take it for lifetime alignment at Firestone and offer to pay for shop time if they really have to fiddle with for more than a couple of hours. I'm also thinking about dropping the front down to the .88" notch instead of 1.75". It does ride a little high to the front now. I'd sacrifice an inch of lift for better control at higher speeds. I'm thinking about shimming the rear about half an inch, also.

 

[nevada]

I understand that and have run into that myself, but then you tell the customer WHY it cannot be adjusted; instead of making yourself look like an idiot by saying "there is no adjustment to be made" when its clear to most anyone who is mildly aware of their vehicle it can be done.

Also, Toyota (and I am sure 3rd party companies) has "offset" cam bolts that can be ordered (I am not entirely sure how to go about it, as we haven't had to do this yet; but I am aware that the parts are there) to correct alignments of vehicles that may be "maxed" out on adjustment.

agreed.

 

[BlackWorksInc]

I set my Caster from about 3.5* to 4.0* on Saturday, it doesn't seem to handle all that different. Though now my steering wheel is off-center. I swear either our alignment machine is out of calibration (a very real possibility based on our dealership's track record... ) or it just likes to mess with me when I have the steering wheel level.

 

[Byrdman713]

How is the caster set? On the lower control arm? My alignment guy had no clue when I asked him to go +3.5 in the caster. He said it wasnt adjustable....

 

[Virtual TWiT]

How is the caster set? On the lower control arm? My alignment guy had no clue when I asked him to go +3.5 in the caster. He said it wasnt adjustable....

Meonard covered that in post #9 above. It's doable via the LCA, but on a lifted one you'll never max it out to the high end of spec at 4*. Aftermarket adjustable UCAs and Caster Kits that replace the adjusters on the LCAs are options I'm looking into, but I don't have another $500 to sink into it right now for adjustable UCAs. I plan to get under it in the morning and see if I can get the adjusters to move at all and if so I'll max out the caster myself and take it back to (sigh) Sears :dizzy: and let them try again.

 

[Virtual TWiT]

To top it all off...

The rattle that made me replace the shocks in the first place is apparently a broken LBJ (driver's side) which is leaking at the bottom of the boot. I jacked it up and I can get a definite wiggle out of it if I push it with my foot. So, here I go with more repairs. BUT it's covered under my service plan which expires in thirteen days (or 3k miles). arty: So, maybe we'll just put off the alignment.

Other: At first I thought it had a bit of lean to the rear but It's almost level.

LF 34 3/8 ___ RF 34 1/2

LR 35 3/8 ___ RR 35

 

[Virtual TWiT]

Found a Good Alignment!

I found a shop in Dickson TN that knows what they're doing. The alignment guy has been doing it for about 20 years. I talked to him and he knew exactly what needed to happen. He knew the Camber needed to be a touch negative on it and did it by default. It still handles a bit touchy at 75 MPH, especially in a crosswind, but I can handle it for now as everything settles in. If it's still really touchy in a thousand miles I'll see about tweaking it a little.
Now I get to go back to Sears and see if I can reclaim some cash since they didn't do what I asked them to do and let me leave with it out of spec in the first place.