Yet another KDSS lean thread...

I see that those who have coilovers are adjusting them to balance out the lean and others are using 1/4" spacers as well. Are there any driveability/alignment issues when one side's suspension is manually adjusted like described above?

If no issue, has anyone with 5100s gone up a notch to counter the KDSS lean? For example, the driver front shock is on the lowest setting but can one put the passenger front shock on the 2nd lowest setting to hopefully balance out the lean?
 
I see that those who have coilovers are adjusting them to balance out the lean and others are using 1/4" spacers as well. Are there any driveability/alignment issues when one side's suspension is manually adjusted like described above?

If no issue, has anyone with 5100s gone up a notch to counter the KDSS lean? For example, the driver front shock is on the lowest setting but can one put the passenger front shock on the 2nd lowest setting to hopefully balance out the lean?

No real negative to doing this as far as I know. Pretty sure the TRD Pro's come with their Bilstein front shocks on different clip settings to correct drivers side lean. Another user in this same thread used different clip perches on his 6112's to level side to side variation.
 
I know this isn't quite apples-to-apples, but I was able to correct driver's side lean in my Taco by adjusting my front Icon coil over. Took the lean out of the whole truck. There was no noticeable difference in driving by having one spring cranked a little more.

Also, on the Tacomas, the stock driver's side does have a slightly stiffer spring to account for the lean. It's not hard to imagine that Toyota has stiffer driver's side springs on multiple models.
 
KDSS and lean

I know this isn't quite apples-to-apples, but I was able to correct driver's side lean in my Taco by adjusting my front Icon coil over. Took the lean out of the whole truck. There was no noticeable difference in driving by having one spring cranked a little more. ...

Yes, you're right. The link on page 1 for the Land Cruiser KDSS lean was interesting. It lead to several more YouTube videos on the T4R lean and installing an ICON lift (and other brands) on a 4Runner. There was one video from ICON about correcting the lean by adjusting the coli over spring lift. They show how to measure lean and how to adjust the spring height with the spanner wrench.

My big question is, Can I add a long travel lift to my 2015 T4R with KDSS? Some parts (I think the Total Chaos lower control arm is one) don't work with KDSS. The Dirt King LCA does work with KDSS if you know how to find the right version on their website, or call them. It has a bracket for attaching the KDSS anti-sway bar.
 
I'm just wondering if anyone has figured out a definitive answer as to WHY this happens?

There's a reason for everything and this is certainly not a one-off.

:lookout:
 
KDSS Lean Reasons

I'm just wondering if anyone has figured out a definitive answer as to WHY this happens?

There's a reason for everything and this is certainly not a one-off.

The OP, [MENTION=151057]timelapse[/MENTION] says in his 1st post that he did enough reading to figure it out.

I don't know, but I think it's an asymmetrical system with a very stiff anti-sway bar, a fixed anchor on the passenger side and the control piston on the driver's side.
 
The OP, [MENTION=151057]timelapse[/MENTION] says in his 1st post that he did enough reading to figure it out.

I don't know, but I think it's an asymmetrical system with a very stiff anti-sway bar, a fixed anchor on the passenger side and the control piston on the driver's side.

Yes you are correct about how KDSS is set up. Toyota or Lexus has a good video on Youtube showing the system with 3D graphics. Give it a look...

My trucks lean has a very bizarre story associated with it. I'll share so others can chime in with their hypothetical theories as to why this might have occurred...

Before lifting, I had maybe 1/4" or so of lean to passenger. So minimal I didn't even consider it lean, but I recall noticing a variation when taking measurements before installing my first suspension mod - 5100s all around set to 2.5". After the 5100 install, the drivers side was still lower. Maybe a little more than before, but not terrible.

Roughly 1 month later I stopped by a local spot in North GA called Bell Mountain. Historically it was an awesome and somewhat burly 4x4 trail to the top of the mountain. Recently the old washed out route was paved for easy access, but it is insanely steep. Probably the steepest grade paved road I have seen in this part of the country. While driving up to check out the new paving, I got to the top and pulled into a parking space. For those who are not familiar, Bell only has a few parking spaces at the very top of the new paved renovation so you climb the final hill and immediately make a sharp right to park. When I turned into my parking space and turned off the vehicle, I struggled to get out of the truck (and I'm 6' 4"). The truck had a crazy lean to it. So much so that the passenger side look like it was lowered. I wasn't as knowledgeable about KDSS at the time, so I just turned the truck back on and left with a shrug. When I checked again things had leveled out, but I now had a .75 to 1" lean to passenger side. Much less than the 2-3" of lean that occurred randomly during the visit to Bell Mtn. 6 months passed and that 3/4-1" lean never went away. Plenty of 4x4 trips in that time period and loads of hwy driving. It just lingered.

After installing my new lift, the lean was quickly fixed with about 1/4" variation of thread between front coil overs (which equals roughly 1/2" of actual lift variation). The rear had the OME 10mm (just under 1/2" spacer installed) on top of the new super flex spring. First week with this set up has passed and everything is remaining level (within 1/8-1/4" depending on fuel, etc).

That's my story on how I *think* I got my bad lean. I could never really understand why KDSS glitched out on that one particular day other than the steep graded road --- but that doesn't really make any sense in regards to how that could affect such a high pressure hydraulic system like KDSS. I did do a water crossing that same morning and had a friend standing on the passenger side sliders just for fun. Perhaps that also plays into the equation but there was no major lean until hours later. I have never had any KDSS warning lights, never accidentally drained any fluids or bled any air from the system. Just before doing the new coilovers, I did equalize the KDSS system following the Toyota instructions for adjusting the shutter valves. It didn't do much besides help with a 1/8" correction. Easy procedure when done right--- I was scared to try it for many months because of all the horror stories of people not measuring the distance to back the two bolts out correctly. Follow the instructions and it's easy.
 
Thanks for the reply.
My big question is, Can I add a long travel lift to my 2015 T4R with KDSS?

NO. long travel not an option with any stock swaybar in the front. And the track bar will hit in the rear if you add too much travel in the rear with KDSS. If LT is your goal... the system really needs to be removed.

As to why it leans... it is hard to say exactly but it has to do with the fact that is not designed to be lifted.. You would need to lengthen one or both of the mounts to get it to balance out properly. People will argue that no suspension is designed to be lifted... but the KDSS front has no traditional links.. so it is much more sensitive to position changes than a normal linked system and I feel this is why it goes out of balance when lifted.

Another thing about the lean... I'm pretty sure it goes away over 15 mph when the system stops letting fluid move.. but not positive. Hard to measure while moving LOL.

People will claim that KDSS is not at the root of the lean (since even non KDSS can have a lean of sorts), but it very much is the swaybar system itself causing it. I'm 100% sure of that since opening up the valves manually always removes it for a bit. However, you can still use pre-load/spacers to adjust it out for good.

Bottom line. KDSS fine for a lift and fine for moderate off-roading.. what the 5th gen is good for. Want to get a little more crazy (either via speed or rocks...) with LT.. Just get rid of it and save yourself a ton of headaches and problems. But you will still have plenty of problems... because trying to take 5th gen beyond moderate off-roading is a tall order filled with many challenges both physically and financially.. not to mention you most likely need to sacrifice some on-road manners unless you are a master fabricator and can come up with a swaybar system for LT. I plan to try... but I'm not a master.. but I will give it a try and will hopefully get there at some point.
 
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KDSS Lean and LT

Thanks @wfo9
I'd read this into some of the ads and descriptions of long travel equipment, how it's not compatible with KDSS. Now I understand why.
Seems like you need an anti-sway bar to drive any car in town or on the highway, but I don't know. My mechanical knowledge is limited. Just installing the lift will be a challenge for me.
 
Thanks @wfo9
I'd read this into some of the ads and descriptions of long travel equipment, how it's not compatible with KDSS. Now I understand why.
Seems like you need an anti-sway bar to drive any car in town or on the highway, but I don't know. My mechanical knowledge is limited. Just installing the lift will be a challenge for me.

To clarify a bit...

You don't have to have swaybars.. You can still get OK road manners without them, but you need a a pretty stiff suspension or a really light truck with a low center of gravity for it to feel confidence inspiring on the road.

People get used to it.... But the best of both worlds is a stiff sway bar on the road and a very loose swaybar offroad (especially at speed, which KDSS won't allow over 12mph).

With long travel in the front, you need the swaybar to be +4 or +7" longer. If you had a std swaybar of this additional length it would bolt right up to the spindles via links. With KDSS the swaybar mounts directly to the LCA with bushings. So you would have to fabricate mounts.

Now it would be possible to put the mounts in the same location as factory and use the same swaybar... but I would be concerned something would break with that much leverage, plus who wants to hack up a nice set of LT LCAs to try and not get to take full advantage of the LT offroad at speed. It would be fun to try if money was no object...

Last time I chatted with TC they had plans to come out with LT traditional swaybars. Not sure if they have made any progress on that.
 

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