anybody done hubs and bearings on 4wd?

[nevada]

I do not know if I have mentioned it in this forum or not, but the reason so many of the hubs do get damaged is because when the bearing begins to fail, it allows the wheel hub to spin off-center, resulting in pressing the hub against the metal part of the seal, and quickly scoring the hub.

yup. thats from being ran too bad, for too long.
we see it often.
at that point, you can usually just slide the hub into the new bearing. it will never last.

 

[macoyle]

Holy hell this is ridiculous.

There seem to be some internet tough guys here and this is retarded, this is a forum to help people and share a common passion, not get in a pissing match over minor differences. Let me sum this up for EVERYBODY because people on here forget that people that arent enthusiasts do google for fixes and use our forums to help them, as they should. So let me make this perfectly clear for everyone involved.-

FIRST
Each and every scenario will be different when dealing with a bearing failure. What you need to do is look at the overall picture of what you are dealing with.

Ex-#1***2009 4TR with 20k miles has a failure, probably a defect and pressing the bearing out will be easier and there is NO NEED to do both sides.

Ex-#2***2009 4TR with 120k miles has a failure, I would recommend replacing both sides and the likely hood of having issues pressing the bearing out will be higher and I would recommend purchasing the entire units or all of the parts to rebuild the hub properly. Doing both sides is more expensive but both assemblies have the same amount of wear and tear so its not a necessity but I would HIGHLY recommend it.

SECOND
There are a million different variables with each and every scenario for vehicles. Examples, how its driven, do you tow, do you off road, do you have larger tires, offset wheels, bad alignment, how many miles, terrain, sandy, dusty, live near the sea, etc.
The list can obviously go on and on but you need to realize that every situation is different and reasons for failure isnt always the same.

THIRD
Each person has different abilities. Some have access to a full garage or shop and are mechanically inclined and can do this with ease. Some people only know how do do an oil change and may take this repair on and will have a different learning curve. You need to realize that just because you may have done this same repair and it was very easy does not mean that the same repair on a different vehicle will have the same results or will be be as easy.

FOUR
Resources
Some people may not mind spending the extra money for an assembled unit and some people can barely afford just purchasing the bearing so they have to make due with what they have. Then there are the clowns that just take their trucks to the dealers and swipe their credit cards lol, we all hate those clowns.


To sum it up, this job is not an easy task. At least that was the case for me, I have been a mechanic for over 15 years and have a full shop at my house and what I dont have here, I can take to work to the airport hanger and I have access to any toy I want. That being said, I am one of the cheapest people you will ever meet, if I can save $100 I will do it without hesitation. My situation sucked going the cheap route. I broke 1 12" vice and used probably half a butane bottle and 2 nights of working on those bastards trying to get them apart before I ended up saying screw it and found a guy on ebay selling the assemblies and I had to wait for them to get here. Once those arrived everything was easy like it should be.


So everyone needs to take a step back and keep your attitudes in check and realize every situation is different and everyones abilities and circumstances are different.

 

[Bumper2Bumper Auto]

I agree that many people are here to learn things, and you do make some very valid points. If I appeared to be showing an "attitude" in general than I apologize. I do have a problem with someone who did not know me trying to make assumptions on my product, and my "attitude", if any, was directed towards that particular situation.

 

[macoyle]

Bill, that wasnt directed at you, it was for a few other members who started ruining this thread. As a fellow small business owner I understand the fine line of backing up your company, prices, etc. You have to stand up for both sides of the situation and in my opinion you werent coming across rude or anything.

Theres always more than one way of doing things, I think all aspects have been covered. I did NOT purchase my complete units from Bumper2Bumper just to clarify for the other folks here. I purchased mine from some toyota tech off of ebay but I would have purchased the complete units from ANYONE that uses OEM seals and O rings and Timken bearings or something of the same quality.

I sure hope the orignal poster has gotten his problem taken care of and found some helpful info throughout this thread

 

[JB.]

macoyle,

The nuts and bolts portions of your posts are very informative and well thought out.

But I didn't see much drama in the thread. I thought it was very informative, overall.

Were I in the position of the OP (and with 115k hard miles on my truck, I might soon be) my conclusion from the thread would be I'd be ordering the assemblies - probably from Bumper2Bumper - but I enjoy getting the perspectives of all the people who have had plenty of grease on their hands.

 

[BCfish]

I think sungod just likes to goad people into a big internet flame war.. He had this debate about Wheel bearings with me a while back. Most often it is almost cheaper to do the whole unit than to get the parts and pressing done IMHO. I have done both and I ended spending more to have one rebuilt than to get a whole new unit. The SKF bearing sourced locally $113 taxes in then seals another $35 at the dealer since the auto parts store didn't have any listed. Then the machine shop not a mechanic since the 5 I talked to and showed my hub and bearing to wouldn't touch it since they had problems doing them before or knew about them already. The machine shop ended up having to make jigs to properly press the old bearing out and the new one in don't know many mechanic shops that can do that this cost me $85 to have it pressed in..This doesn't even include my time and gas.

 

[absolute yota]

I changed my bearings myself with the harbor freight press. It wasn't too bad, I didn't have to cut the bolts off and I just had to rig up a base with some scrap 1/4 inch angle I had laying around. Used some large sockets for spacers and it came right out. Grinder on the race until it releases and the press the new one in. The first time it is a pain in the ass. I did all the work and bought the press and did it but I did the wrong side (stupid move based on my half ass diagnostic skills) so I bought the full assembly for the other side because I ran out of time for an off roading trip. Its worth setting up to do it yourself with a cheap press if you own a lot of vehicles or do any type of off road driving. Mine get water and mud in them and go bad pretty quick.I bought my complete assembly from Blue Pit bearings. I think I will press them myself from now on, practice makes perfect !

 

[bob3dsf]

Wow what a thread!

As a point of reference regarding DIY'ing, etc... I went with the bluepit assm'bly because I could get it done with the space and tools I have on hand. I seriously thought about getting a 20T press because I wanted to do the whole thing myself, but the roaring from my bearings was getting worse and I didn't want to end up without a front wheel while my kids were in the car. Sungod has mentioned his strategy for the work several times and that's fine. I started to look around for shops that could do the press work. It must be nice in some areas where members live, to have choices and actually find such a shop. Of the 2 in my area who said they had presses, 1 said they don't work on Toyotas and the other said they'd have to look at my bearings before they could say whether or not they could do the work. What kind of Mickey Mouse BS is that? Shoot, I'd have to rent a car the schlep the bearing to the "shop." Where would the savings be? My time is valuable too and taking care of little kids prevent the runaround. It's not being lazy at all.

Not trying to all fired up, it's just what figured into my calculus in getting the work done. I still might get a HF or Torin press. I like working on all kinds of odd projects so I think I'll be able to find other uses for it and one day I might have to do the REAR bearings. Yikes! Gotta work on building the "SST" for THAT job. I always wanted to learn how to weld....

@ Bumper2BumperAuto: Nice video. As I see it the pressing the new stuff together is the easy part.

Here's a tech question/scenario for the knowledgeable ones:
If you want to keep your hubs (and don't have any issues with bearing races, etc.) the separating of the old bearing ook hard from a 'tool availability' standpoint. The tech manual shows a puller (the SST) being used. Would a bearing splitter work if you could get the vertical bolt threaded into the bearing mounting holes? While researching my own bearing job I found the OTC "Hub Grappler" which looked the closest to the SST pictured in the tech manual. Can the removal of the old hub be done on a press? The T4R bearing aren't anything like the bearing press-out vids I was able to find on YT. Could a jig be made to hang the assembly in a press from below?

Cheers.

 

[earthrealm]

my 2 cents...sungod failed to factor in the fact that you could buy all the parts and try pressing it in.....and the sh*t gets damaged doing the process.....thus u end up buying another set of parts.......

tis really a no brainer...let the folks who want to press the bearings do so...........let the folks who want to buy a drop in kit do.........

had a similar argument with the hid drop in kits and real retrofits for the head light assy

its a free world

 

[absolute yota]

This is how I set up the press to get it apart and then clamped it in a pipe vise to get the old race off with a cutting wheel. Had to Mcgyver it a bit but it worked great. Ill find the picture of how I pressed it back together too.

 

[Sungod]

I think sungod just likes to goad people into a big internet flame war.. He had this debate about Wheel bearings with me a while back. Most often it is almost cheaper to do the whole unit than to get the parts and pressing done IMHO. I have done both and I ended spending more to have one rebuilt than to get a whole new unit. The SKF bearing sourced locally $113 taxes in then seals another $35 at the dealer since the auto parts store didn't have any listed. Then the machine shop not a mechanic since the 5 I talked to and showed my hub and bearing to wouldn't touch it since they had problems doing them before or knew about them already. The machine shop ended up having to make jigs to properly press the old bearing out and the new one in don't know many mechanic shops that can do that this cost me $85 to have it pressed in..This doesn't even include my time and gas.

Sorry if I hurt your feelings with the facts. It is hard to argue with math so it is better to blame the messenger. If you can order from bumper, you can surely order from rockauto. I have posted the exact prices of the parts with shipping. If it isn't worth at minimum $40 to you to drop the parts at a shop, good for you.

The bottom line is that bumper offers a good price for what he is doing. I really don't see how it is worth his time, but good for him. Anyone who orders from him should appreciate the fact that he is only making $10-15 on the deal. The reality is even with his great price you can still get the parts assembled for quite a bit less. I do find it odd that people are willing to spend $40 more on nothing, but not willing to spend $5 on gas. You choose where you spend your money, not me.

 

[Sungod]

Here is another optionhttp://www.toyota-4runner.org/4th-gen-t4rs/53750-wheel-bearing-gone-bad-2.html 03L4runner claims to have assembled his bearings by heating one and cooling the other. I have never tried it, but that would make buying the parts yourself even less expensive.

 

[BCfish]

Sorry if I hurt your feelings with the facts. It is hard to argue with math so it is better to blame the messenger. If you can order from bumper, you can surely order from rockauto. I have posted the exact prices of the parts with shipping. If it isn't worth at minimum $40 to you to drop the parts at a shop, good for you.

The bottom line is that bumper offers a good price for what he is doing. I really don't see how it is worth his time, but good for him. Anyone who orders from him should appreciate the fact that he is only making $10-15 on the deal. The reality is even with his great price you can still get the parts assembled for quite a bit less. I do find it odd that people are willing to spend $40 more on nothing, but not willing to spend $5 on gas. You choose where you spend your money, not me.

Doesn't work so well living in Canada and to bring everything in is more $ and more time..I use Rockauto all the time for assorted parts though but it's not always cheaper up here to do that..BTW I wasted around $25-$30 gas running around to shops around town that when they saw it they wouldn't touch it. My brothers neighbor who owns a 06 had both his bearings re built then ended up replacing them after about 2000km since they weren't pressed right he used bluepits and that was like a year and a half ago. And mine that I had rebuilt maybe 3 months ago is making noise in the last few weeks since I came back from camping. But the bluepit that I did when my brothers neighbor did his and it's still nice and quite. But we like to beat a dead horse, but hey what the HELL:deadhorse:

 

[Bumper2Bumper Auto]

This is how I set up the press to get it apart and then clamped it in a pipe vise to get the old race off with a cutting wheel. Had to Mcgyver it a bit but it worked great. Ill find the picture of how I pressed it back together too.

View attachment 98160

View attachment 98161

Nice setup there to ease in removing the old hub. The second picture does show what I was talking about on wear on the hub. If you look you can see a slight wear ring where the inner seal has been making uneven contact with the back of the wheel hub. That one is not that bad, and could probably be buffed out with some emery cloth, but I have seen many others that were a lot worse.

Sorry if I hurt your feelings with the facts. It is hard to argue with math so it is better to blame the messenger. If you can order from bumper, you can surely order from rockauto. I have posted the exact prices of the parts with shipping. If it isn't worth at minimum $40 to you to drop the parts at a shop, good for you.

The bottom line is that bumper offers a good price for what he is doing. I really don't see how it is worth his time, but good for him. Anyone who orders from him should appreciate the fact that he is only making $10-15 on the deal. The reality is even with his great price you can still get the parts assembled for quite a bit less. I do find it odd that people are willing to spend $40 more on nothing, but not willing to spend $5 on gas. You choose where you spend your money, not me.

With respect, I guess you are totally blind when I post. I will try to make it simple enough though. For about the third or fourth time here: I DO NOT BUY PARTS FOR THE SAME PRICES YOU DO. This means that I can make these assemblies for CHEAPER than you can. SO I do make an acceptable profit on each unit. You have to realize that I buy my Koyo factory wheel bearings in lots of 50. This means I get a decent discount. On average I am making about 20-25 of these units a week, both 4WD and 2WD.

Here is another optionhttp://www.toyota-4runner.org/4th-gen-t4rs/53750-wheel-bearing-gone-bad-2.html 03L4runner claims to have assembled his bearings by heating one and cooling the other. I have never tried it, but that would make buying the parts yourself even less expensive.

I read that thread and saw some almost funny posts there. A comment about a "dust shield" between the bearing and the wheel hub. That is a bearing seal that is used to keep the grease in, and water and other contaminants out. Also the comment about being careful and measuring how deep the wheel hub is pressed into the bearing, and matching that distance is totally wrong. The design of the hub and bearing is such that you are supposed to press the wheel hub COMPLETELY into the bearing until it bottoms out. It is a precise measurement in the machining that prevents the hub from being pressed in "too far" as was commented on. You can't press the hub in too far.

The last was a quote from you Sungod, in which you said: (Post number 48)

And if you used an extension on your torque wrench you need to compensate for that also. Torqueing to 160 with an extension will reduce the actual torque on the nut. It probably isn't a big deal, but tighter would be better. You use a castle nut anyway.

If you use an extension you INCREASE the torque, not decrease it. So torquing to 160 lb-ft with an extension to make the torque wrench longer would mean it was OVER tightened. See this article.

Either way the owners of their trucks will do what they chose. Some people just don't want to deal with the hassle of having to get the parts, take them to a shop, get them pressed together, and then go home and install it. You COULD go to the store, buy a steak and charcoal, and make your own steak on your own instead of go to a steak house and have one delivered to your table, but I bet you still like the CONVENIENCE of just sitting down at a table and having it served up. People are not WASTING $40 of their money, as you like to put it. What they are doing is paying for the CONVENIENCE.

Also, many of my customers have bought my assemblies as spares, or backups. One customer said he wished that he had bought my assemblies when he had the chance. He was traveling with his family on vacation. They had done some off-roading and were back on the highway heading on when one of his wheel bearings started a horrible noise. He said they stopped in the next town, but since it was Sunday, there were bearings and parts at the parts store, but no shops open. They lost a day of vacation time waiting until Monday morning for a shop to open up. He said if he had bought one or two of my assemblies before the trip, he would have saved a ton of money and time.

Sure, hind sight is 20-20, but we ALL know that these bearings fail. About 1/4th of my orders however are for spares. If someone thinks that to THEM it is worth that extra $40 to buy my pre-made assemblies, who are YOU to say that they are wasting their money?

 

[Sungod]

The last was a quote from you Sungod, in which you said: (Post number 48)


If you use an extension you INCREASE the torque, not decrease it. So torquing to 160 lb-ft with an extension to make the torque wrench longer would mean it was OVER tightened. See this article.

What are you talking about? This is an extension: Snap-on I didn't expect to have to explain the names of tools to someone who supposedly runs a shop. Any time you add an extension you lose torque. Now go back to the internet and do another search. If you have to add a cheater bar to a torque wrench, you may need to go back to the gym.

 

[Bumper2Bumper Auto]

What are you talking about? This is an extension: Snap-on I didn't expect to have to explain the names of tools to someone who supposedly runs a shop. Any time you add an extension you lose torque. Now go back to the internet and do another search. If you have to add a cheater bar to a torque wrench, you may need to go back to the gym.

This has begun to be comedic in quality. First off, there are TWO different types of extensions. You OBVIOUSLY do not know about tools if you did not know this. you have a SOCKET extension, which you are indicating,

and there is a TORQUE extension, which is used in places where a torque wrench will not normally fit.

Perfect example is torquing the bolts on the hub bearings we are talking about. You can't fit a torque wrench and socket in there, so you use an torque extension adapter. This is explained in the web page that I quoted above.

What is really funny is your quote that any time you use and extension you lose torque. I do not know if you have ever taken a physics course or not, but you should. When applying direct force (Not impact force) the torque applied to a bolt with any extension is the same, as long as the extension does not change the LENGTH of the torque wrench itself. It is an old wives tale that a socket extension changes torque. That is ONLY true if you are using an impact type tool because you are not doing a steady force pull. When using a straight bar, and using steady hand force, the torque applied is still the same. Yes, the extension will twist, but the TORQUE applied will still be the same. This question was posed may times in automotive forums, and if you do some searching you will find that I am correct.

It is not a cheater bar, as you put it, it is an ADAPTER to allow you to apply torque to a bolt that cannot be normally accessed by the torque wrench. I never use a cheater bar on a torque wrench. My tools are too valuable for that. So instead of ME going to the gym, perhaps you should do your OWN internet searching before you try and correct someone with your wrong information. But then again, please try. I do enjoy the comedy.

 

[Sungod]

This has begun to be comedic in quality. First off, there are TWO different types of extensions. You OBVIOUSLY do not know about tools if you did not know this. you have a SOCKET extension, which you are indicating,

and there is a TORQUE extension, which is used in places where a torque wrench will not normally fit.

Perfect example is torquing the bolts on the hub bearings we are talking about. You can't fit a torque wrench and socket in there, so you use an torque extension adapter. This is explained in the web page that I quoted above.

What is really funny is your quote that any time you use and extension you lose torque. I do not know if you have ever taken a physics course or not, but you should. When applying direct force (Not impact force) the torque applied to a bolt with any extension is the same, as long as the extension does not change the LENGTH of the torque wrench itself. It is an old wives tale that a socket extension changes torque. That is ONLY true if you are using an impact type tool because you are not doing a steady force pull. When using a straight bar, and using steady hand force, the torque applied is still the same. Yes, the extension will twist, but the TORQUE applied will still be the same. This question was posed may times in automotive forums, and if you do some searching you will find that I am correct.

It is not a cheater bar, as you put it, it is an ADAPTER to allow you to apply torque to a bolt that cannot be normally accessed by the torque wrench. I never use a cheater bar on a torque wrench. My tools are too valuable for that. So instead of ME going to the gym, perhaps you should do your OWN internet searching before you try and correct someone with your wrong information. But then again, please try. I do enjoy the comedy.

Nice, so you just learned what an extension is and did another internet search to find something else with the word extension in it to confuse your lack of knowledge. When I said extension, I meant exactly that. There is importance to using the correct tool for the job and that is not it.

I apologize for not thinking that there were people who wouldn't know what an extension is and should have scoured the internet for all backwoods contraptions. I would hope that a professional like yourself would skip the gimmicks and stick with what is tried, tested and true. What is the better choice is a torque wrench like this: snapon torque

As for your torque assertion, you are totally wrong. You will never gain the same torque using and extension (assuming you now know what and extension is). Torque is lost in the twist. That is not a wives tale, that is physics. Does your shop have torque sticks? If so you may want to try it for yourself and not do an internet search. Pull out a green stick and set your torque to 100 ft/lbs and see what you get when it clicks. Then take the stick off and watch it turn. You are not getting 100 ft/lbs on the nut with it on.

BTW, I am finished proving you wrong so don't expect a response to your next google search of wisdom. You bore me and are providing nothing to this topic.

 

[Bumper2Bumper Auto]

Nice, so you just learned what an extension is and did another internet search to find something else with the word extension in it to confuse your lack of knowledge. When I said extension, I meant exactly that. There is importance to using the correct tool for the job and that is not it.

I apologize for not thinking that there were people who wouldn't know what an extension is and should have scoured the internet for all backwoods contraptions. I would hope that a professional like yourself would skip the gimmicks and stick with what is tried, tested and true. What is the better choice is a torque wrench like this: snapon torque

As for your torque assertion, you are totally wrong. You will never gain the same torque using and extension (assuming you now know what and extension is). Torque is lost in the twist. That is not a wives tale, that is physics. Does your shop have torque sticks? If so you may want to try it for yourself and not do an internet search. Pull out a green stick and set your torque to 100 ft/lbs and see what you get when it clicks. Then take the stick off and watch it turn. You are not getting 100 ft/lbs on the nut with it on.

BTW, I am finished proving you wrong so don't expect a response to your next google search of wisdom. You bore me and are providing nothing to this topic.

I see what the deal is now. Sungod is always right, and can never be wrong. What I DID was to help YOU find out the facts. I am curious of your true experience as a technician. Personally I have been doing this for over 25 years. I am pretty sure I am more qualified.

Lets do this again, one step at a time for you so that you can understand. After this, I will be done with you and your misinformation.

First, the torque wrench that you linked is a very nice one. However I do not see how it would be able to properly torque the hub bearing bolts that we have on the Tacoma. STILL cant fit it between the wheel hub and the bearing. And after all, the discussion in this thread, and the other thread linked before are all about the hub bearings.

Second, I have known probably for longer than you have what an extensions is. Interestingly enough, you had no idea what a torque extension was. I had to find it for you. The torque extension is no gimmick. It is even sold by your beloved Snap-on tools.

Third, I am totally right about what I stated on torque and socket extensions. Sure, I have and have used a torque stick. HOWEVER the torque stick is a tool designed to be used with an IMPACT TOOL, not any other type of tool. And as I mentioned, we are discussing torquing hub bearing bolts, not lug nuts. Perhaps you are getting yourself confused here. If you don't believe me on using socket extensions, then do the searches yourself. Go ahead. FIND a thread that shows proof that a socket extension when used with a torque wrench will change the torque. Not a user forum, or some "ask.com" stuff, but I challenge you to find something that says a socket extension affects a direct pull torque reading. You are believing and old-wives tale sir. the ONLY think that affects DIRECT PULL torque is a deviation in length of the fulcrum. You can imagine it as much as you want, but physics does not lie. There is no effect on proper torque with using a socket extension on a socket when using a direct pull torque wrench. This has been talked about in the automotive world for many years. You are wrong. Just accept it and let us move on.

Your test with the torque stick is 1) not the proper use of a torque stick, as it is meant for an impact tool, not a torque wrench, and 2) even if you DID use it that way, if you applied 100 lbs-ft of torque the way you described, you will most certainly tighten the bolt 100 lbs-ft. Here is a simpler test for you to try: Go extreme and get a 6 or 12 inch socket extension. Tighten any bolt you have to 100 lbs-ft. Now remove the extension and put just the socket on it. If what you claim is true, the bolt should tighten more. I guarantee it won't though.

Oh, by the way, we actually performed this test back when I was in college in physics class to prove this. Multiple tests were performed using different grade bolts, torquing nuts, etc. So yes, I am correct.

Glad to see that you are getting bored though. Perhaps you will finally stop trying to give people incorrect information.

 

[Bumper2Bumper Auto]

Here we go! If you will direct yourself to page #5, you will see that even Snap-On tools says a socket extension will not affect torque.

http://www.snaponindustrialbrands.com/dsn/wwwsnaponindustrialbrandscom/Content/PDF/CDI%20TechAngle%20Manual.pdf

 

[macoyle]

wow this is just sad