JB.
New member
You missed the point.
It was entirely about how easily public sentiment could shift.
Apple Opposes Judge Order to Break Encryption
- Thread starter Thai
- Start date
You missed the point.
It was entirely about how easily public sentiment could shift.
BlackWorksInc
New member
@Thai
So far everything out there shows that while Apple's SE is fairly secure, there are possibilities to bypass it. Apparently you seem to lack the expertise as well as you're not entirely well-versed on the issue at hand as well (as evidenced by your own admission in this thread that you are unsure how the system works entirely). This entire thread is based mainly on information we're all getting from other security and information technology experts anyways. At the end of the day you seem not to know much more of Apple's SE and system than anyone else in this thread, despite your blind faith in Apple's "uncrackable" security.
As for my "essay" it is a bit over the place because there's a lot of things that are frustrating about the entire situation and touches a lot of failings in general. As for your statement of the Toyota's system, it's a rough analogy on how the SE works. The Key is created, used, and transmitted on dedicated communication buses between the hardware, which is managed by software in a closed ecosystem. The ECM and Immobilizer System Communication Buses work in the same fashion; there are dedicated communication lines that work between the authentication modules. The only way you can get, program, or work with the immobilizer modules is via software to communicate with that specific system on it's dedicated hardware bus. So it's a somewhat accurate analogy in how hardware & software work together to create a "Key" and maintain that key on a secured hardware network. It may not be the exact same as Apple's but it provides a mental picture for those trying to follow the thread.
Also you're missing the point entirely as [MENTION=91721]J.B.[/MENTION] pointed out, it's not about 9/11 being preventable; it's about how Americans are easily manipulated by fear and how they have STILL failed to recoup the egregious loss of freedoms that we as a country threw away to the Government over a decade ago. Apple chose a rather poor case study to support for digital privacy rights and as I mentioned in my "essay" politicians are already lambasting Apple for being the future haven of Pedophiles, Terrorists, and Criminals because of their refusal to help the US catch Terrorists. Now you and I both know that's ridiculous and not the point Apple is trying to make, but the media and politicians are quickly making this to be "Apple Supports Terrorists and Pedophiles" than "Apple wants to fight for Privacy"; even you should be able to see that.
So far everything out there shows that while Apple's SE is fairly secure, there are possibilities to bypass it. Apparently you seem to lack the expertise as well as you're not entirely well-versed on the issue at hand as well (as evidenced by your own admission in this thread that you are unsure how the system works entirely). This entire thread is based mainly on information we're all getting from other security and information technology experts anyways. At the end of the day you seem not to know much more of Apple's SE and system than anyone else in this thread, despite your blind faith in Apple's "uncrackable" security.
As for my "essay" it is a bit over the place because there's a lot of things that are frustrating about the entire situation and touches a lot of failings in general. As for your statement of the Toyota's system, it's a rough analogy on how the SE works. The Key is created, used, and transmitted on dedicated communication buses between the hardware, which is managed by software in a closed ecosystem. The ECM and Immobilizer System Communication Buses work in the same fashion; there are dedicated communication lines that work between the authentication modules. The only way you can get, program, or work with the immobilizer modules is via software to communicate with that specific system on it's dedicated hardware bus. So it's a somewhat accurate analogy in how hardware & software work together to create a "Key" and maintain that key on a secured hardware network. It may not be the exact same as Apple's but it provides a mental picture for those trying to follow the thread.
Also you're missing the point entirely as [MENTION=91721]J.B.[/MENTION] pointed out, it's not about 9/11 being preventable; it's about how Americans are easily manipulated by fear and how they have STILL failed to recoup the egregious loss of freedoms that we as a country threw away to the Government over a decade ago. Apple chose a rather poor case study to support for digital privacy rights and as I mentioned in my "essay" politicians are already lambasting Apple for being the future haven of Pedophiles, Terrorists, and Criminals because of their refusal to help the US catch Terrorists. Now you and I both know that's ridiculous and not the point Apple is trying to make, but the media and politicians are quickly making this to be "Apple Supports Terrorists and Pedophiles" than "Apple wants to fight for Privacy"; even you should be able to see that.
RedSled
New member
Also you're missing the point entirely as [MENTION=91721]J.B.[/MENTION] pointed out, it's not about 9/11 being preventable; it's about how Americans are easily manipulated by fear and how they have STILL failed to recoup the egregious loss of freedoms that we as a country threw away to the Government over a decade ago. Apple chose a rather poor case study to support for digital privacy rights and as I mentioned in my "essay" politicians are already lambasting Apple for being the future haven of Pedophiles, Terrorists, and Criminals because of their refusal to help the US catch Terrorists. Now you and I both know that's ridiculous and not the point Apple is trying to make, but the media and politicians are quickly making this to be "Apple Supports Terrorists and Pedophiles" than "Apple wants to fight for Privacy"; even you should be able to see that.
:iagree:
:iagree:
Thai
Elite Member
[MENTION=2798]JB.[/MENTION] [MENTION=66389]BlackWorksInc[/MENTION]
So, you think that Apple is losing this battle publicly? I doubt it. If anything, this has created good publicity for Apple. Yeah, politicians may be against Apple, but Apple has public support pretty much everywhere i look.
Look at it this way...the public is ruled by FB, Google, Twitter, and Apple. So, far, ALL these folks have supported Apple.
Could things change? Maybe, but even immediately (relatively) AFTER San Bernardino shooting AND phone of terrorist being the central point of debate, the public has not turned on Apple...but actually more against the politicians who sided with FBI.
And the government knows this...that is why the recent filing against Apple has NO PENALTY mentioned.
Again, even the mother of one of San Bernardino victim supports Apple.
Have you seen anyone boycotting Apple the way Trump wants? More like people are laughing at Trump for saying such stupid things.
Look around the tech forums from Android to Microsoft, the support for Apple is growing! What better way to get customers than to appeal to the basic rights of everyone.
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Trump is all about theater. The more controversy he stirs up, the more support he gets. He doesn't have to make logical sense.
This sounds very cynical but you cannot underestimate Joe Six Pack America's inability to understand why Apple's privacy stance is important. To them, it's all about "kill all those terrorist muslim pigs and fvck Apple for getting in the way!" Manipulation by the media and the government, as stated earlier, doesn't help.
BTW, I'm inclined to support Apple by buying an iPhone. I've actually never owned one; I've been a Blackberry-turned-Android guy. But maybe I should wait to see whether or not Apple actually caves in (getting back to my comment earlier about the FBI showing up at HQ in Cupertino and forcing Tim Cook and his software team to start hacking at gunpoint).
BlackWorksInc
New member
I don't think Apple is losing publicly (in terms of their cult following and generally liberal, hipster, and/or tech savy millennial crowd), but keep in mind that when it comes to laws and regulations the majority of the time the American public has little influence besides electing officials. The main point here isn't so much the American people as it is whether or not idiot politicians decide to make a point of Apple; they're the ones that can decide if a new law requiring these types of things is required. There's plenty of idiots in office that might side with the wrong twit because he spins this as Apple is okay with Terrorists (keep in mind idiotic Voter Registration Laws and other ridiculous Laws exist not because the American people want them, but because their representatives decided they want them). Don't under estimate the American people and their government's ability to screw things up, we're very much a country of "say one thing, do another".
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Thai
Elite Member
You never answered me...what phone are you honestly using?
You seem to dislike Apple a lot and their customers. You seem to think that Apple customers buy Apple products because they are blind. Do you assume that you know more about tech than an average Joe like me? Cult-like? Sheepie? Maybe you need to educate yourself on tech stuff and then maybe you appreciate why so many people trust Apple.
(And no, your "explanation" on this whole topic is mis-guided and irrelevant. Stick to ASE stuff dude...and learn more about AWD systems too while you're at it.
)Politicians can spin whatever they want. You have to first understand what they are requesting...there is NO WAY IN HELL that something like that gets passed, certainly not pass Supreme Court.
Despite what the politicians blabbered out, the public is in support of Apple privacy stance.
[MENTION=2798]JB.[/MENTION]
What battle should Apple pick? You guys keep on saying that Apple picked the wrong battle?
So, in THIS situation, Apple should just bend over to the government? Then what? And then do grand-standing on something minor (much) later on? To what purpose? So that the government can throw all the times they bend over back into Apple's face????
No, Apple needs to make a stand N0W. Take that article from Stanford idiot and shred it. Moronic article.
After Snowden, i think that opened up a lot of eyes and created lots of distrust with the government.
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JB.
New member
[MENTION=2274539]Thai[/MENTION]
As I said, my sense is that they're winning the PR battle (assuming it's exactly the PR battle it appears to be on the surface) but I don't assume I have my finger on the pulse of national sentiment. My concern is what might happen if they lose.
No, I reiterated my general concern about what might transpire if time and outcome show that to be the case, and quoted a portion of an article that had a similar sentiment. Linking to the source is simply good form. Doesn't mean I agree with the whole article.
Anyway, given a large enough terrorist attack, I think the whole thing becomes moot based on how I would expect public sentiment to go. Apparently, you disagree.
But it's incredibly early in this story and there are many possibilities. I'm not wedded to a viewpoint and insist on the luxury of being able to read widely. If you feel like getting worked up even further, here's something I'll bet you haven't read. Head-melt warning: It puts you on Obama's team! :hug:
The FBI v. Apple isn’t at all the way you think it is
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BrianSD_42
New member
BlackWorksInc
New member
You never answered me...what phone are you honestly using?
You seem to dislike Apple a lot and their customers. You seem to think that Apple customers buy Apple products because they are blind. Do you assume that you know more about tech than an average Joe like me? Cult-like? Sheepie? Maybe you need to educate yourself on tech stuff and then maybe you appreciate why so many people trust Apple.
(And no, your "explanation" on this whole topic is mis-guided and irrelevant. Stick to ASE stuff dude...and learn more about AWD systems too while you're at it.
Politicians can spin whatever they want. You have to first understand what they are requesting...there is NO WAY IN HELL that something like that gets passed, certainly not pass Supreme Court.
Despite what the politicians blabbered out, the public is in support of Apple privacy stance.
[MENTION=2798]JB.[/MENTION]
What battle should Apple pick? You guys keep on saying that Apple picked the wrong battle?
So, in THIS situation, Apple should just bend over to the government? Then what? And then do grand-standing on something minor (much) later on? To what purpose? So that the government can throw all the times they bend over back into Apple's face????
No, Apple needs to make a stand N0W. Take that article from Stanford idiot and shred it. Moronic article.
After Snowden, i think that opened up a lot of eyes and created lots of distrust with the government.
So my points are irrelevant because you deem them so, despite you not understanding how their system works? Seems awfully convenient for you. Despite you not really clarifying in any technical detail why they are irrelevant, again you seem to have as much technical knowledge of Apple's SE as anyone in this thread; so I don't quite see how that makes you qualified to shoot down everyone else because you like Apple (a consistent pattern).
Additionally my example is an analogy on how the immobilizer system and ECM communicate an encrypted Key that cannot be "pulled" from the closed hardware network (meaning you can't just plug into the OBDII and talk to the immobilizer, it exists on a separate network entirely, you talk through the ECM) physically, in reality you can't pull key codes, you can only add or erase them. While not identical to Apple's SE, it still has the main components of an isolated hardware network bus and software managing it to encrypt data and allow access to a sub-system. If that is so difficult for you to draw a relative comparison to in the context of an analogy then I can't help you there.
Well if you really want to get into that... let's see I owned plenty of Apple products (desktops, laptops, and an iPod) before and quickly grew tired of their limited scope, usage, and eventual flock of fairly blind followers. After discovering very early on that the "Apples don't get Viruses" was complete BS after having to fix a few of them from various people and some other issues I started to see that Apple isn't anywhere above the rest like people believe and their closed ecosystem ends up with too much stagnant hardware and software for my liking. The fact that most every damn iPhone I see is a shattered piece of garbage from dropping less than 6 inches and yet most every phone out of a dozen or so I have owned (with the exception of one) have bounced and skipped across the shop floor more times than I can count without a nary a crack also dissuades me from their products. I also don't care for their operating system layout and UI, their closed environment is frustrating and their sneaky firmware attacks on users who try to combat their tyrannical grip on what they think their customer wants is beyond annoying. That's not to include the fact that more than half the people I meet who buy or follow Apple products only do so because it's "trendy", "pretty", "innovative" (despite Apple in the last five years or so just copying various ideas and pushing them as original); most of the people who buy their product do so without any real understanding of the product. My distaste for Apple has to do with the rather disingenuous image they tote, the rather cult-like Apple followers, and the fact that their products are not as good as they seem. But that's my opinion and I mainly just stick to the fact that they are far from some shining paragon of humanitarian excellence, at best they're just a competitive profit-seeking corporation like any other in the world and that's that; trying to make them the second coming of Jesus became tiring a decade ago.
Your blissful optimism in our government is both entertaining and highly indicative of the mess this country is in right now. Hopefully the Supreme Court wouldn't pass something as idiotic as that, but then again it took them this long to finally allow gays to marry among other things.
It's not that they chose to fight Privacy Rights, I'm okay with that; it's more that perhaps they shouldn't have chosen a Muslim Terrorist that committed an act of Terrorism on US soil during a time when the US as a whole doesn't exactly look favorably on that situation. Perhaps a proactive digital privacy campaign not using a terrorist as their defendant would have been a slightly better choice. It just provides plenty of opportunity to twist their message is all we're saying; it's not that anyone disagrees with Apple's stance, just their execution.
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Thai
Elite Member
Very easy...read your first post in this thread...and read the backtracking that you have done since. Your posts are lengthy with no substance. (Your previous arguments regarding Ridgeline AWD are similar...i had to explain how many times before you even get it!)
Blissful optimism in our government???? WTF have you been reading about me?! Of all things you can say about me, this is probably the dumbest thing you can say! :lmao:
Here's the thing...you just exposed who you are. How about we try something radical? Stop hiding behind the veil...don't pretend that you are an advocate for privacy. You are a freaking liberal.
You're not OK with Apple (or anyone else) stance on privacy. You want a BIG government that can do whatever they want. Don't lie. The above quote exposed you dude.
I don't understand how this makes US look bad?
Proactive digital privacy stance? Well, since iOS8, Apple has been very proactive and vocal about privacy.
So, despite Apple well-known stance on privacy, YOU want Apple to now bend over to the FBI? Like Google and MS? That is EXACTLY what you and JB want.
And you want Apple to do that because of selfish reasons. You want Apple to do it so that you can point your Apple-hater finger at them to say that Apple is "disingenuous," right? I understand your mindset now. JB can do the same with his MS-loving finger!
And after Apple lets FBI screw them, then what? You guys never answered that! THEN WHAT?
The only disingenuous here is you guys. One minute crapping on Apple for being liars...the next "afraid" of politicians twisting Apple's words.
No more lies dude. Come clean.
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Thai
Elite Member
THIS quote deserve a post of its own because i just love this sh!t...and even with religious reference too! :bravo:
Ahhh, now we get to the heart of the matter and explains your view all along.
Strange how you do NOT tell me what phone you have. Why is that? Because you're afraid that i may rip it apart and embarrass your EVERY single point you made above? Hey, i am just a blind fool in a cult, right? I know nothing about tech...surely well below your level...you said it many times already.
I think that i bolded the important stuff above. Did i miss any?
You ownED Apple products. Apple never gets viruses? When did Apple ever said that? And i see that YOU never got a virus with an Apple product, but "other people" did. Yet that made you abandon Apple. Anything can get a virus if you try hard enough OR you are a fool. Is Apple better than Windows at avoiding viruses? 100000% true. Is it impervious? Of course not! Our nation's defense system has gotten viruses before...why would you think Apple OS won't? Do you see the profound idiocy of this argument?
Ok...probably the dumbest argument yet...iPhone cracks so easily from a 6" (INCHES) drop. That's less than a foot, right? Just want to make sure. Here's a little secret...iPhone are made from the same glass as everyone else...shhh...Corning Gorilla Glass. And prior to iPhone 6s, iPhone also made from the same exterior metal as everyone else. It is not rocket science. A fall from 6 feet may be painless or disastrous depending on THE ANGLE of fall, where it hits on the phone, where the phone lands (grass, concrete), and does it bounce. Now, take yourself to Youtube and see those drop tests. iPhones are no better and no worst than everyone else. Now, unless you use plastic display, everyone cracks if the phone lands on the wrong side.
Sneaky firmware attacks by Apple? Ok, i gotta hear this one! Tell me more. Please i hope that it is not about jailbreaking.
Copying ideas...you're telling me that Android does not copy Apple either? So, you crap on Apple, yet turn a blind eye to everyone else?
Apple iPhones are not as good as their competition? Show me. Your tech knowledge is so good...this is an easy question!
You crap on Apple for trying to make a profit...and? You think that Google is not evil? Microsoft?
Second coming of Jesus? Wow...profound! Explain please because your religious reference may be offensive to some.
Thai
Elite Member
Took you long enough! Finish with your infamous "ladder theory?" Please educate us on your ladder theory when you finish, OK?
The arrogance of some can never be compared to you ndcent and your ladder theory.
Thai
Elite Member
For those who think that Apple should bend over and had picked the "wrong" battle, please read: http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/21/technology/apple-sees-value-in-privacy-vow.html?mwrsm=Twitter&_r=1
This is not a US thing. Apple stance (or lack of) will have a rippling effect world-wide.
Quote:
In China, for example, Apple — like any other foreign company selling smartphones — hands over devices for import checks by Chinese regulators. Apple also maintains server computers in China, but Apple has previously said that Beijing cannot view the data and that the keys to the servers are not stored in China. In practice and according to Chinese law, Beijing typically has access to any data stored in China.
If Apple accedes to American law enforcement demands for opening the iPhone in the San Bernardino case and Beijing asks for a similar tool, it is unlikely Apple would be able to control China’s use of it. Yet if Apple were to refuse Beijing, it would potentially face a battery of penalties.
Analysts said Chinese officials were pushing for greater control over the encryption and security of computers and phones sold in the country, though Beijing last year backed off on some proposals that would have required foreign companies to provide encryption keys for devices sold in the country after facing pressure from foreign trade groups.
“People tend to forget the global impact of this,” said Raman Jit Singh Chima, policy director at Access Now, a nonprofit that works for Internet freedoms. “The reality is the damage done when a democratic government does something like this is massive. It’s even more negative in places where there are fewer freedoms.”
This is not a US thing. Apple stance (or lack of) will have a rippling effect world-wide.
Quote:
In China, for example, Apple — like any other foreign company selling smartphones — hands over devices for import checks by Chinese regulators. Apple also maintains server computers in China, but Apple has previously said that Beijing cannot view the data and that the keys to the servers are not stored in China. In practice and according to Chinese law, Beijing typically has access to any data stored in China.
If Apple accedes to American law enforcement demands for opening the iPhone in the San Bernardino case and Beijing asks for a similar tool, it is unlikely Apple would be able to control China’s use of it. Yet if Apple were to refuse Beijing, it would potentially face a battery of penalties.
Analysts said Chinese officials were pushing for greater control over the encryption and security of computers and phones sold in the country, though Beijing last year backed off on some proposals that would have required foreign companies to provide encryption keys for devices sold in the country after facing pressure from foreign trade groups.
“People tend to forget the global impact of this,” said Raman Jit Singh Chima, policy director at Access Now, a nonprofit that works for Internet freedoms. “The reality is the damage done when a democratic government does something like this is massive. It’s even more negative in places where there are fewer freedoms.”
hikenbike
New member
Thai reading the NY Times?? You Hillary-lovin' fancy fool you!!
BlackWorksInc
New member
Considering many if not most Apple people lauded how Apples never got viruses for a LONG time, that's just you being petty.
My phone doesn't matter in this argument, you're just looking for a red herring to focus on and trash talk people like you usually do; I think it's obvious by this point that I'm more of an Android user than any other OS at the moment (maybe they should make a Linux phone?
)
You somehow still think I'm for Big Government despite me being clear that I'm not... again typical Thai trying to force an argument. I made it clear I am very wary and distrustful of the government and that while I'm for fighting for Privacy rights, I simply think the optics of Apple protecting a terrorist to be an unfavorable fight for them. I believe most EVERYONE in this thread has echoed that sentiment.
I thin the government should just spend the tax payer money and build their own backdoor and stop trying to take the lazy way out by forcing Apple; it's already been stated multiple times by multiple people that there's a very large reasonable doubt to the firmware being THAT secure. (You're assumptions and statements that it is without any real technical data, which you consistently fail to provide yet everyone else attempts to, is evidence that you don't know much of the SE beyond what Apple press released and so you're no more qualified to discount or agree than the rest of us).
Yes I am aware that the Apple products are made of the same tough glass that everyone uses, yet more than half of the Apple products I see are cracked and damaged and according to their owner's own volition being dropped from ridiculously short distances. I've had phones drop off the lift, bounce, skid, and hit walls and they don't crack; apparently Apple doesn't understand how to take advantage of tough glass?
Sneaky firmware probably has to do with jailbreaking, but I've also heard it having to do with non-approved Apple applications being installed and the firmware seeing it. Bottom line, I haven't seen any Android firmware, Microsoft, most other companies actively attacking their customer's for modifying the OS (they won't warranty it or provide support, but that's different from assaulting an end-user, that'd be akin to Toyota "bricking" your 4Runner because you decided to install a CAI and disable the Navigation lock-out), that's just a dirty business practice in my opinion. But that's only a small reason I don't care for Apple.
As for me "looking the other way", I don't I have stated multiple times that Apple is just like every other company out there. Samsung, Apple, Microsoft, they all are shady and disingenuous; what pisses me off is how Apple acts and creates this cult following that they can do no wrong while publicly cheating taxes, using child labor, and other shady practices like every other company. My main focus in trashing Apple has been that they are no better than the rest, because I don't throw in pages of examples from VW, Samsung, Microsoft, and other companies doesn't change that fact. You're purposeful attempt to ignore that and continue to throw red herrings out is only further evidence that you are probably one of those drinking the kool-aid, a shame since you are sometimes a good debater.
Now let me make this clear for you... though in all honesty you're more than likely to somehow not understand the very clear and concise statement I make below based on past experience.
Good for Apple (any company) for fighting for privacy. Though their reasons are far from humanitarian, but it's probably a hell of a lot better than the Government's which will most likely royally screw everyone over. Backing a Terrorist's Privacy is probably not the best move optically in my opinion.
Oh an Apple is not at all any more special than any other money-grubbing corporation, the multitude of the Apple Cult trying to say otherwise got tiring in the 90's.
I have nothing better to do with my life and conversing with Thai is occasionally entertaining until he starts getting a defensive and starts lashing out at people when he doesn't like the direction the conversation takes. But mainly I have no life and too much time on my hands. :/
My phone doesn't matter in this argument, you're just looking for a red herring to focus on and trash talk people like you usually do; I think it's obvious by this point that I'm more of an Android user than any other OS at the moment (maybe they should make a Linux phone?
)You somehow still think I'm for Big Government despite me being clear that I'm not... again typical Thai trying to force an argument. I made it clear I am very wary and distrustful of the government and that while I'm for fighting for Privacy rights, I simply think the optics of Apple protecting a terrorist to be an unfavorable fight for them. I believe most EVERYONE in this thread has echoed that sentiment.
I thin the government should just spend the tax payer money and build their own backdoor and stop trying to take the lazy way out by forcing Apple; it's already been stated multiple times by multiple people that there's a very large reasonable doubt to the firmware being THAT secure. (You're assumptions and statements that it is without any real technical data, which you consistently fail to provide yet everyone else attempts to, is evidence that you don't know much of the SE beyond what Apple press released and so you're no more qualified to discount or agree than the rest of us).
Yes I am aware that the Apple products are made of the same tough glass that everyone uses, yet more than half of the Apple products I see are cracked and damaged and according to their owner's own volition being dropped from ridiculously short distances. I've had phones drop off the lift, bounce, skid, and hit walls and they don't crack; apparently Apple doesn't understand how to take advantage of tough glass?
Sneaky firmware probably has to do with jailbreaking, but I've also heard it having to do with non-approved Apple applications being installed and the firmware seeing it. Bottom line, I haven't seen any Android firmware, Microsoft, most other companies actively attacking their customer's for modifying the OS (they won't warranty it or provide support, but that's different from assaulting an end-user, that'd be akin to Toyota "bricking" your 4Runner because you decided to install a CAI and disable the Navigation lock-out), that's just a dirty business practice in my opinion. But that's only a small reason I don't care for Apple.
As for me "looking the other way", I don't I have stated multiple times that Apple is just like every other company out there. Samsung, Apple, Microsoft, they all are shady and disingenuous; what pisses me off is how Apple acts and creates this cult following that they can do no wrong while publicly cheating taxes, using child labor, and other shady practices like every other company. My main focus in trashing Apple has been that they are no better than the rest, because I don't throw in pages of examples from VW, Samsung, Microsoft, and other companies doesn't change that fact. You're purposeful attempt to ignore that and continue to throw red herrings out is only further evidence that you are probably one of those drinking the kool-aid, a shame since you are sometimes a good debater.
Now let me make this clear for you... though in all honesty you're more than likely to somehow not understand the very clear and concise statement I make below based on past experience.
Good for Apple (any company) for fighting for privacy. Though their reasons are far from humanitarian, but it's probably a hell of a lot better than the Government's which will most likely royally screw everyone over. Backing a Terrorist's Privacy is probably not the best move optically in my opinion.
Oh an Apple is not at all any more special than any other money-grubbing corporation, the multitude of the Apple Cult trying to say otherwise got tiring in the 90's.
I have nothing better to do with my life and conversing with Thai is occasionally entertaining until he starts getting a defensive and starts lashing out at people when he doesn't like the direction the conversation takes. But mainly I have no life and too much time on my hands. :/
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