AT Tire Thread... Again

[Sarge]

You have to talk directly to the warehouse they will be coming from - in my case, I went to Discount Tire's outlet location in Chicago and bought mine direct from there. They let me pick out a Japanese made set with date codes that were very close to each other and very fresh. When they saw the red Taco TRD Off Road they were going to get installed on they had no issues with what I wanted. Spoke to them on the phone before going up there first and set the whole thing up - it was pretty easy to deal with them since they want to make a sale. Right now most of the common sizes wanted for a T4R have some good prices on Amazon but not sure if I'd trust them to send a current dated set.

You'll have to research first as to the availability of the Japanese-made Toyos that are available here and where to find them. I got my set back in 2011 or so and have been out of the loop for a while so no idea on the current market. I'll be doing more work on this in a few weeks when taxes come back - if they don't shut the doors again.


Sarge

 

[MSRP.]

I think the model of 4Runner makes a world of difference. Mine is a '03 V8 Limited with full-time 4wd and center Torsen differential w/locking. Even with those Michelins (yes, that exact stock tire) it does quite well in the snow. It can be a problem at times on city street corners trying to turn due to the differential trying to maintain traction. The Michelins are nearly bald, and no, it is not that I like them, just surprised they bite at all.

I can tell you from experience that a full-blown AT will work better overall, but has some limitations you should understand. In deep water/heavy rains - they do very well. But, braking will not be as good due to a lack of contact and siping that other M&S tires have for overall wet pavement. A standard M&S can hydroplane much easier than the more open, deeper tread on any common AT rated tire in heavy rain and standing water. Icy conditions can be downright weird with an AT - sometimes they work awesome, other times they are really not very good. Just depends on conditions and tire pressures/tread design. I always set my tire pressures by a temperature/pressure method that usually falls between the max sidewall rating and vehicle's stock tire pressure recommendations.

If you're concerned about fuel mileage - look up the specifications of tires you are interested in and look for their rolling resistance rating. The stock Michelins are pretty low in rolling resistance - many brands of AT styles are far higher and will cost you fuel mileage. Again, tire pressure is another big factor. Those much hated Firestone AT's on my pickup are super-sensitive to pressure in relation to fuel mileage - they have to run nearly at the max sidewall rating to avoid dramatically dropping fuel mileage. If I don't run them that high, the truck loses 7mpg on an average tank despite the MDS system and 8spd trans. Otherwise, I can easily squeeze an average of 18.5-20mpg out of a 6,000+lb truck. My V8 4Runner has averaged so far around 18, not bad considering it is an older AWD model.

You really have to get used to the vehicle and how it responds to conditions. The 4Runner will have a fairly high learning curve unless you've owned body on frame solid axle 4wd trucks in the past. I grew up on those, they definitely have their quirks compared to modern vehicles but when the conditions are really bad the newer stuff can fall short in comparison. You have to learn to feel the extra weight of the full-frame design and especially the braking limitations. My '14 pickup, despite weighing a full ton more than the T4R can easily out stop it any day. It can also easily track through deep snow or ice pretty easily with the electronic traction control - up to a point. Comparing the 4Runner to the old Land Cruiser is a no-contest, that old dinosaur would run circles around it in almost any weather. Those things are tanks and in 4hi was pretty much unstoppable. Even with open diffs, it would just keep going.

If you're finding a loss of steering response in low traction conditions - turn the 4wd off - that center diff is the problem and causing the front axle to understeer. The Torsen center differential needs a certain load coming back from each corner to make it work - low traction conditions can make it fight itself and lose steering response a lot easier. In a straight line, even on ice, that system will really shine and just find the traction and go, but stopping is going to be subpar in some conditions. Again, it just takes some getting used to. Standard types of M&S tread, like the stock tires, are going to load up with snow when trying to stop - some people will be surprised by that and it's why you see so many rear-end collisions. A good, deep AT tire will not load up nearly as bad, but they can still suffer in braking performance in wet pavement conditions. Finding a balance that is perfect is not going to happen - but you can get pretty close. There will be a tradeoff in one way or another - braking, wet weather, ice/snow and such is why it's really important to look at a tire's ratings table. You just have to figure out what you can live with in terms of shortcomings - every tire has at least one in the main condtions category.

Sarge

In short, gotta drive according to the friction circle (autox friends, HAAAY).
If you want to turn in inclement weather, you have to be finished your braking before you initiate the turn, keeping the weight transfer up front for maximum bite. (unless you have blown the braking and need to give it gas to combat understeer and get the rear end rotated.

The Defenders still have quite a lot of tread left. Nowhere near the wear bars, and still lots of siping. Most/all of the AT tires I am looking at have a treadwear rating in the 540-640 range compared to the Defenders at 800, so they should all have a softer compound. If I could run just winter tires, I'd go Cooper Discoverer M+S, as I have run those before and love them. However, the tread is SO soft on them (being a winter tire) that I can't use them year 'round. I understand the core mechanics of tires pretty well. What I don't necessarily understand is different patterns and their effects on performance.

As far as finding a more common tire, good point. While I may not literally be driving Texas to Alaska on a regular basis, I will be seeing all of the conditions involved in that trip on a regular basis and will actually likely be doing an Alaska trip at some point in the near-ish future.

I'm not sure where you are getting your pricing, but the Kumhos are MUCH cheaper than the BFGs on TireRack and other sources. I was looking at the Cooper AT3/W and sort of at the AT3/4S, but the Ws don't have much in the way of tread depth, and I'd be concerned they'll pack up with whatever surface I am on if it's not smooth and hard-ish. I know next to nothing about the 4S at this point, I just know that I didn't like the Mastercraft version of the older AT3s at all.

What about tire pressures? If you're from the camp where you run close to max tire pressures according to the tire sidewall, there is a lot of grip to gain by going close to what the door says for PSI.

You essentially have to priortize whether you want ice/snow performance or if you want durability/mud performance. There is no goldilock that can do both well. Snow and ice, you need sipes for ice, and to hold onto snow to grip on snow. Sipes for ice/snow are bad for mud/durability when you want the (relatively) huge voids to eject mud and rocks. Tough sidewalls and tread that is resilient to chunking off = not soft and pliable for snow and ice.

The defenders are probably the highest rated tire for mileage, so they'll last the longest of most SUV street tires, Michelin also has one of the best tire wear warranties that don't require proof of rotation etc. Also one of the most quiet tires for the street throughout it's treadlife.

 

[hinmo24t]

I'm not sure where you are getting your pricing, but the Kumhos are MUCH cheaper than the BFGs on TireRack and other sources. I was looking at the Cooper AT3/W and sort of at the AT3/4S, but the Ws don't have much in the way of tread depth, and I'd be concerned they'll pack up with whatever surface I am on if it's not smooth and hard-ish. I know next to nothing about the 4S at this point, I just know that I didn't like the Mastercraft version of the older AT3s at all.

good call - i was prob just shopping amazon.

check out this deal - same tires i have - i paid $155 each i think.

Kumho Road Venture AT51 LT255/75R17 C/6PR BSW Tires

 

[Jazz30-06]

good call - i was prob just shopping amazon.

check out this deal - same tires i have - i paid $155 each i think.

Kumho Road Venture AT51 LT255/75R17 C/6PR BSW Tires

Once you factor in shipping, I'm still a bit better off with what I was quoted locally, but thanks.

 

[Jazz30-06]

In short, gotta drive according to the friction circle (autox friends, HAAAY).
If you want to turn in inclement weather, you have to be finished your braking before you initiate the turn, keeping the weight transfer up front for maximum bite. (unless you have blown the braking and need to give it gas to combat understeer and get the rear end rotated.





What about tire pressures? If you're from the camp where you run close to max tire pressures according to the tire sidewall, there is a lot of grip to gain by going close to what the door says for PSI.

You essentially have to priortize whether you want ice/snow performance or if you want durability/mud performance. There is no goldilock that can do both well. Snow and ice, you need sipes for ice, and to hold onto snow to grip on snow. Sipes for ice/snow are bad for mud/durability when you want the (relatively) huge voids to eject mud and rocks. Tough sidewalls and tread that is resilient to chunking off = not soft and pliable for snow and ice.

The defenders are probably the highest rated tire for mileage, so they'll last the longest of most SUV street tires, Michelin also has one of the best tire wear warranties that don't require proof of rotation etc. Also one of the most quiet tires for the street throughout it's treadlife.

As far as turning/braking at the same time, the understeer issue I am having is even going uphill and after braking. The stupid nannies in this thing don't allow for oversteer. (I never remember to turn them off because I've never owned a vehicle with them before.)

Tire pressures are around 32 psi at 55*F. It's colder than that here, so they are a bit lower.

I understand there will be compromises with an AT, that's kind of the point. Get the best jack-of-all-trades tire you can find and just run that instead of swapping tires every 5 minutes. As far as mud, no tire that can be comfortably driven on the road will be exceptional at mud, so that's extremely low on my list of concerns.

Frankly, I don't care THAT much about tire wear. In a few months, I'll be out of school and making good enough money that it won't matter. Granted, running snows year 'round is stupid, so I won't be doing that.

 

[hinmo24t]

Once you factor in shipping, I'm still a bit better off with what I was quoted locally, but thanks.

i thought it said free shipping - mine were at 155 a pop

 

[Sarge]

If you get that much snow - your best overall solution is a second set of cheap wheels and dedicated winter tires. Around here that doesn't really work all that well and the folks that run specific snow/winter tires don't get very many miles out of them due to wild variation in temperatures we get here. Back in December, we had days that were well over 60*F - then a few days later back to below zero and ice/snow storms. Those conditions kill snow tires quickly for those that drive a lot of miles to work at high speeds on the Interstate.

Trying to beat the older nanny systems can be a hassle. For the most part - you'd be better off installing the switch to disable the system in bad traction conditions and rely just on the mechanical traction and learn to drive it that way. I'm not a fan of the system in my Dodge pickup - it does ok for most drivers but removes the ability to manipulate the truck very much when you really need it. I just shut it off most of the time and use my own abilities to control the thing - with better control and results.

It is common to have issues with turning in 4wd - even with a center differential that can change the front/rear bias such as ours. Corners are easier to handle off-throttle for the most part and feed throttle back in as needed. The biggest factor is to not overdrive your level of traction - you have to learn to "feel" what is there and adapt to the conditions. That takes time and experience - everyone's level of being able to feel traction is different. Most people I see driving in inclement weather are either driving far too slow or as most - far too fast for their ability. Modern vehicles will give a high sense of being planted that is somewhat false - they find out the hard way when they push it too far.

As far as understeer problems - keep it in 2wd to avoid the front tires trying to plow ahead and lose traction. Sometimes you're just better off using 2wd and leave the 4wd for when you hit the really deep stuff or get stuck. If you really want to learn to drive in snow - install a spool in the rear axle, that's a fast way to learn how to feel when things are about to go wrong.

Sarge

 

[Jazz30-06]

If you get that much snow - your best overall solution is a second set of cheap wheels and dedicated winter tires. Around here that doesn't really work all that well and the folks that run specific snow/winter tires don't get very many miles out of them due to wild variation in temperatures we get here. Back in December, we had days that were well over 60*F - then a few days later back to below zero and ice/snow storms. Those conditions kill snow tires quickly for those that drive a lot of miles to work at high speeds on the Interstate.

Trying to beat the older nanny systems can be a hassle. For the most part - you'd be better off installing the switch to disable the system in bad traction conditions and rely just on the mechanical traction and learn to drive it that way. I'm not a fan of the system in my Dodge pickup - it does ok for most drivers but removes the ability to manipulate the truck very much when you really need it. I just shut it off most of the time and use my own abilities to control the thing - with better control and results.

It is common to have issues with turning in 4wd - even with a center differential that can change the front/rear bias such as ours. Corners are easier to handle off-throttle for the most part and feed throttle back in as needed. The biggest factor is to not overdrive your level of traction - you have to learn to "feel" what is there and adapt to the conditions. That takes time and experience - everyone's level of being able to feel traction is different. Most people I see driving in inclement weather are either driving far too slow or as most - far too fast for their ability. Modern vehicles will give a high sense of being planted that is somewhat false - they find out the hard way when they push it too far.

As far as understeer problems - keep it in 2wd to avoid the front tires trying to plow ahead and lose traction. Sometimes you're just better off using 2wd and leave the 4wd for when you hit the really deep stuff or get stuck. If you really want to learn to drive in snow - install a spool in the rear axle, that's a fast way to learn how to feel when things are about to go wrong.

Sarge

As far as buying a second set of wheels, it's just simply not an option. I am finishing up school in the next few months and could be moving across the country. If I was going to be in this general area for a few more years, I would probably just buy some snows and deal with the wear in the summer since I don't drive a TON in the summer because I ride my bike most of the time.

What's the difference between the aftermarket switch install and the OEM Trac/VCS switch? Well, other than always being off. Can it be done where ATRAC still works? I've been driving my truck for the past few years, and it always turned in better. Maybe it's because I was always running in 2WD due to having better tires. As far as AWD though, my Impreza was fantastic and didn't push like this. Granted, better tires again, but after I did my drivetrain swap it was LSD front and rear with a DCCD center. It was so much more stable, even though there were literally no driver-assists left since I took out the ABS pump. I know how to feel what a vehicle is doing, (Enough so that I was perfectly comfortable with the back kicking out on my truck going down the road before I put good tires on it.) but all the assists and such kicking in all the time screws with me. Is there any way to turn all of them off save ATRAC at lower speeds? If so, that would be the best option IMO as I have never had driving assists and I really hate them TBH.