Body Roll and Nose Diving on Non-KDSS 4Runners?

[arouth]

I’ve spent some time researching the various threads on KDSS and was wondering if the body roll and nose diving issues noted on this forum are enough to make SR5 owners and Trail/TRD owners regret not getting KDSS? Beyond that just some basic questions:

1. Basically, on a day to day basis when not off-roading, do you notice body roll and nose diving with your 4Runners?

2. I currently drive a 2016 Mustang Ecoboost w/ a manual, so after driving that will this KDSS vs Non-KDSS stuff even be relevant to me going from a coupe to a SUV (I’m keeping the Mustang btw)

3. Are there any improvements in the 2020 and 2021 4Runners? I’m leaning towards getting a 2021 SR5 Premium.

 

[gsla72]

Owner of a 2017 non-KDSS TRD Off Road model here. My previous daily was an 02 WRX (still have it) with extensive chassis modifications, so the T4R was definitely a different animal compared to what I was used to. I've since modified the 4Runner as well, so I'll give you my thoughts pre and post mods:

1. Before suspension (currently on Bilstein 6112/5180's) - Body roll was just a fact of life. It was primarily noticed as nose dive when coming to a stop. After suspension - huge improvement. It's still not a handling machine, but it's much much more manageable. Body roll is substantially less and the nose dive really only presents with a hard brake.

2. It'll be a big adjustment either way. The ecoboosts are quick, the 4Runner not so much. You're bigger, slower, and taller than you were either way you go.

3. The differences between the 2020 and 2021 are negligible (mostly "packages"). The big changes have been the facelift in 2014 and the infotainment/cluster change that took place with the 2020's.

Overall - I'm happy with what I've got. KDSS is one more thing to break down the line for me, and I plan on keeping the 4Runner 10+ years (I DD the WRX for 9 years and it's nowhere near as reliable a platform). If you like the Carplay radio and "safety" pack upgrades, go for the new one. If you prefer a bit more old school, find a 2019 with low miles.

 

[Mudballz]

18 orp non kdss same here stock suspension was great in city drive too many potholes but you can get sea sick switched out to ARB bp51 and never looked back :roll:
Now I have total adjustable suspension no dive no wave :humble:
Any strut upgrade is an improvement
Mike

 

[arouth]

1. Before suspension (currently on Bilstein 6112/5180's) - Body roll was just a fact of life. It was primarily noticed as nose dive when coming to a stop. After suspension - huge improvement. It's still not a handling machine, but it's much much more manageable. Body roll is substantially less and the nose dive really only presents with a hard brake.

Question, does getting the Bilstein 6112/5180's require that you lift your 4Runner?

I don’t have any need to do that at this point. I’d like to pretend I’m going to become some rock climbing outdoorsman but most likely take it to the lake and go camping lol.

 

[Y2Ksport]

I have yet to experience this crazy nose dive and body roll issue on my 2020 OR. I imagine my driving style differs from those that are experiencing this. It's not a sports car by any means and rides like a tall SUV and I drive it as such. Some of the previous sporty cars i've driven for extended periods included a z28, modified Mustang GT, and IS350 F sport.

I didn't care for KDSS and didn't want to pay extra for it. Especially knowing it'll fail down the road at some point and cost extra $$$ to fix. I'll probably do a small lift and suspension upgrades in the coming years if I decide to keep my 2020 long term (dependent on how 6th gen and Bronco turn out).

 

[BobsTrail]

2013 Trail, decided to skip KDSS and the $1,750 cost. I did not notice body lean, probably due to driving style. Did notice brake dive. Added Bilstein 5100 on all 4 with front at 0.85 to get more level. Fixed the brake dive.
I would recommend adding Bilstein 5100s.

KDSS adds about 2 inches extra articulation for off road and helps body roll from what other posts indicate.

Drive the Mustang for fun, drive the 4Runner as a top heavy, 5,000 pound SUV with very good off road ability, get the best of both.

 

[02SE]

OP, only you can decide what is acceptable to you. When I was considering buying a 5th gen, I drove all the different models. I found I greatly preferred KDSS, so I bought a TRD ORP.

We have other vehicles too. They all have their own unique dynamics.

 

[Saker]

Question, does getting the Bilstein 6112/5180's require that you lift your 4Runner?

I don’t have any need to do that at this point. I’d like to pretend I’m going to become some rock climbing outdoorsman but most likely take it to the lake and go camping lol.

You can place the circlip on the lowest setting and should remain at stock height IIRC. Might give .85” of lift.
The advantage of going to the 6112 coil overs is the higher coil weight, I think it’s 650lbs and better valving.
The 5160’s.... not 5180’s (that’s an incorrect number), give no lift on the rear, (change rear coils if you want lift) but the are 0-2” compatible.
They are valving matched to the 6112’s.

Hope this helps.

 

[gsla72]

Question, does getting the Bilstein 6112/5180's require that you lift your 4Runner?

I don’t have any need to do that at this point. I’d like to pretend I’m going to become some rock climbing outdoorsman but most likely take it to the lake and go camping lol.

As mentioned above - no requirement to go for any lift. I left mine stock height in the rear (OEM springs still in place) and increased the front ~1/2" - 3/4". I have a relatively low height constraint in my garage due to parking under a 4 post lift and can't afford to increase the height by very much. my main reason to upgrade was to get rid of the nose dive.

The front 6112's do give you the ability to change your mind down the road if you did ever want to lift it. You'd need an alignment and some matching springs for the back.

 

[llDemonll]

Sway bars don't affect nose dive in any noticeable manner. Shocks and springs will change the behavior, not sway bars.

 

[dadrunner]

I have a 2018 sr5. The nose dive is real, makes your passenger feel like you don't know how to drive, and makes my dog car sick lol. This is just driving around town doing normal driving at normal speeds.

I will be towing with my sr5, so I was already looking into air bags for the rear. But I am probably going to look into some other suspension mods to firm things up. Not sure what to do yet, as I am not interested in lifts or some crazy $4k ARB system.

 

[Snowtrooper]

Drove and wrenched on light sportscars for most of my life so when I decided to get into a 4Runner TRD, I test drove both KDSS and non-KDSS.

What I learned: They are both heavy boats no matter how beefy you want to thicken the sway bars. I’m sure there is some benefit to quick maneuvering, but I wouldn’t do that kind of driving in a truck.

Ultimately went with the non-kdss for future maintenance and ease of modification. Price diff was negligible.

Eventually, threw some stiffer springs and shocks on the 4runner and this was a noticeable improvement. As a side note: my brother switched from a KDSS Trail to a 2020 TRD Pro and did not report any shortcomings.

My takeaway: A decent spring/ damper combo is all we really need with this particular truck.

 

[CMTAZ]

Eibach Pro Truck Lift Kit.

Research the difference between Eibach & Bilstein. BOTH are good. It will depend on what you looking for.

In general: Bilstein's are supposed to be slightly better off road, but provide a slightly harsher ride around town. Eibach's provide a slightly better on road ride and supposedly are not quite as good off road.

My experience: None with the Bilstein's. My SR5P rides 1000% better after the Eibach Pro Truck Lift Kit was installed. No corner lean or brake dive. Handled the easy trails in MOAB (bottomed out once - probably me hwell

 

[arouth]

Thank you for all the information. Roughly how much did you guys spend on the Eibach or Bilsteins?

I've researched things like this on my Mustang but never pulled the trigger. What I'm thinking is buy the 4Runner, keep it like a year and just learn the vehicle, and then do the upgrade.

 

[CMTAZ]

Thank you for all the information. Roughly how much did you guys spend on the Eibach or Bilsteins?

Eibach Pro Kit was 635.00$ (2019 Black Friday) plus install.

 

[jpachard]

I just had a 2016 trail premium with KDSS. It was much better than the non KDSS model I drove back in 2016. I just picked up a 2021 TRD Off Road premium with no KDSS and it is much better than the 2016 I drove as it pertains to body role and nose dive. From my observation, Toyota has done some good improvements from 2016 to 2021 but I can’t comment on when this improvement came in since I haven’t driven other model years. Hope this helps.

Cheers, James

 

[gsla72]

Thank you for all the information. Roughly how much did you guys spend on the Eibach or Bilsteins?

I've researched things like this on my Mustang but never pulled the trigger. What I'm thinking is buy the 4Runner, keep it like a year and just learn the vehicle, and then do the upgrade.

I think all in on the Bilsteins was around $850 or so if memory serves. Hard to remember exactly, but if you look for a sale you may do better than that.

Some folks sell their TRD take offs, so you may find a low mile used set as well. The newer style TRD fox sets go for over a grand though.

Factor in another $200 - $400 for install if you can’t do it yourself. You’ll need an alignment after doing the fronts.

 

[xtacles]

We recently sold our 2016 SR5 premium and bought a 2021 ORP with KDSS. The difference (to me) is night and day. The 2016 SR5P had pretty substantial roll and braking nose dive. The ORP handles much, much better. I don't plan on lifting over 2", so that was not a factor for us.

 

[arouth]

I just had a 2016 trail premium with KDSS. It was much better than the non KDSS model I drove back in 2016. I just picked up a 2021 TRD Off Road premium with no KDSS and it is much better than the 2016 I drove as it pertains to body role and nose dive. From my observation, Toyota has done some good improvements from 2016 to 2021 but I can’t comment on when this improvement came in since I haven’t driven other model years. Hope this helps.

Cheers, James

Actually that does help a lot so thank you for that.

I guess whenever I buy I'll just have to see if it's something that I notice and can live with and if I can't then at least I can do an upgrade to fix it.

 

[Cheers!]

From what I understand KDSS allows for the decoupling of the sway bars. As such the nose dive under breaking and nose lift under acceleration is the same on KDSS and non KDSS as KDSS only affects the roll stiffness of the sway bars being coupled or non coupled.

If you want dive and squat control then it is the XRES system found on the Limited trim level. Where the front and rear suspension (shock absorbers specifically) are tied together hydraulically.