Bowe Bergdalh, serial season 2

willbgood

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Hero, or traitor?

I am not sure, but I do know as of now I am doubting everything I heard.

As a prior military man I have thought from the beginning that their was more to the story, and that almost everything reported was through the fog of war, government falsehoods, confusing intel, and misreporting.

Scroll and you can listen to the first 4 in sequence.

https://serialpodcast.org/
 
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I'm sorry I don't give a shit what his motive or reason was. If I was on the ground having to look for him and I lost one of my guys he would have been better off with the enemy. We lost good men because his ass and many more hurt. Personally I think they should give him back to the men that would have died trying to save his sorry ass. Let the rest and the story of him blow away with the sands and the winds.....

Ssgt of Marines
Infantry Plt Sgt.
Double recipient of a Combat Action Ribbon and more....
 
I'm sorry I don't give a shit what his motive or reason was. If I was on the ground having to look for him and I lost one of my guys he would have been better off with the enemy

They actually talk about this in the podcast. They interview several guys from his group, quoted as saying "if my guys find him they are going to beat the sh-t out of him" lol.

They also talk about how much he f-cked over his fellow soldiers, how he put lives at risk.

Personally I think he is a sh*tbird who should be quartmartialed, punished and then discharged. He should not be allowed to carry on. Btw he was promoted to E-4 while captive.

You might like the Task and Purpose podcast. They are ex-marines who served in Afghanistan and discuss the case and Serial S2 fact vs fiction.
 
I'm sorry I don't give a shit what his motive or reason was. If I was on the ground having to look for him and I lost one of my guys he would have been better off with the enemy. We lost good men because his ass and many more hurt. Personally I think they should give him back to the men that would have died trying to save his sorry ass. Let the rest and the story of him blow away with the sands and the winds.....

Ssgt of Marines
Infantry Plt Sgt.
Double recipient of a Combat Action Ribbon and more....

So are we to discount what the investigating officer who recommended there be no court marshal stated?

Or the fact that the Taliban was getting ready to attack the post and were already placing IED's before his capture?

What about the wiki leaks reports from the day of his capture?

We also have to give minor creds for his intelligence and his behavior as a pow.

As for me, I will await the outcome of the Court, and even then I may not be convinced that he did anything more then go AWOL and act really stupid and get his ass caught.

But, my mind has been changed before and may well be again.
 
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This is just my opinion ....

He didn't go AWOL because he was on duty in a combat zone. I think AWOL is where you say F it and don't come back from leave. His crime is abandoning his post, at a forward operating position, in combat.

His unit at this remote post only had < 15 guys, probably < 10. I believe it was equivalent to the size post in Restrepo. Leaving put the others at risk. Then the "dust one" further put lives at risk.

I don't think he is a hero. I think he is lying about deciding to go on some special mission he invented after leaving the outpost. I think he is lying about a lot. I understand he suffered but only one person is to blame for that, him.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B004SBIJ00/


Or the fact that the Taliban was getting ready to attack the post and were already placing IED's before his capture?

The only thing we know about the Taliban supposedly getting ready to attack the post is based on Bergdal and some Taliban guys (which ones lol) that she called. And if the Taliban was going to attack how is abandoning your unit not worthy of a Court Marshall?

About the IEDs?

1) I think he's lying

2) So what, there was already other units assigned to stopping and investigating IEDs. This is not an excuse for abandoning your post.

I'm particularly against him because the only evidence he ever gives for why he needed to leave is a vague statement about failures in leadership that put troops at risk. It is supported by no evidence revealed so far and his ex brothers in arms have all stated there was nothing worthwhile to support the actions of abandoning ones post.

I'm no soldier. Never have been. I served in the Navy. But I understand the importance of a post and I've served many a watch armed and on post.

I've seen a fellow sailor processed out of the Navy for abandoning their weapons watch. One guy who was on topside rover watch put down his weapon and went to sleep at a different location in the ship. He was caught then severely punished and eventually removed from the Navy. We weren't even in combat when this occurred. My observation is that the military (all of it) highly frowns on abandoning one's post.

.
 
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This is just my opinion ....

He didn't go AWOL because he was on duty in a combat zone. I think AWOL is where you say F it and don't come back from leave. His crime is abandoning his post, at a forward operating position, in combat.

886. ARTICLE 86. ABSENCE WITHOUT LEAVE
10. Punitive Articles
Any member of the armed forces who, without authority–
(1) fails to go to his appointed place of duty at the time prescribed;
(2) goes from that place; or
(3) absents himself or remains absent from his unit, organization, or place of duty at which he is required to be at the time prescribed;
shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.

885. ARTICLE 85. DESERTION
by admin on Jul.21, 2010, under 10. Punitive Articles


(a) Any member of the armed forces who–
(1) without authority goes or remains absent from his unit, organization, or place of duty with intent to remain away therefrom permanently;
(2) quits his unit, organization, or place of duty with intent to avoid hazardous duty or to shirk important service; or
(3) without being regularly separated from one of the armed forces enlists or accepts an appointment in the same or another on of the armed forces without fully disclosing the fact that he has not been regularly separated, or enters any foreign armed service except when authorized by the United States; is guilty of desertion.
(b) Any commissioned officer of the armed forces who, after tender of his resignation and before notice of its acceptance, quits his post or proper duties without leave and with intent to remain away therefrom permanently is guilty of desertion.
(c) Any person found guilty of desertion or attempt to desert shall be punished, if the offense is committed in time of war, by death or such other punishment as a court-martial may direct, but if the desertion or attempt to desert occurs at any other time, by such punishment, other than death, as a court-martial may direct.

899. ARTICLE 99. MISBEHAVIOR BEFORE THE ENEMY
10. Punitive Articles
Any person subject to this chapter who before or in the presence of the enemy–
(1) runs away;
(2) shamefully abandons, surrenders, or delivers up any command, unit, place, or military property which it is his duty to defend;
(3) through disobedience, neglect, or intentional misconduct endangers the safety of any such command, unit, place, or military property;
(4) casts away his arms or ammunition;
(5) is guilty of cowardly conduct;
(6) quits his place of duty to plunder or pillage;
(7) causes false alarms in any command, unit, or place under control of the armed forces;
(8) willfully fails to do his utmost to encounter, engage, capture, or destroy any enemy troops, combatants, vessels, aircraft, or any other thing, which it is his duty so to encounter, engage, capture, or destroy; or
(9) does not afford all practicable relief and assistance to any troops, combatants, vessels, or aircraft of the armed forces belonging to the United States or their allies when engaged in battle;
shall be punished by death or such punishment as a court- martial may direct.

The wording is pretty clear, desertion is out, and the words, "before or in the presence," when literally interpreted, as they have been in the past,(stare decisis) will make a conviction of misbehavior difficult, but not impossible.

I think conviction will be for AWOL, if anything, which is a very serious offense, but I cannot mesh out desertion and misbehavior opens a whole can of worms, and endless appeals.

Lest we forget, this is not a declared war, so the death penalty is absolutely out of the question. Just another problem with these nasty undeclared wars we call police actions or regime change.

Time will tell, and the evidence that comes forth, will answer a slew of unanswered question, and may change a lot of minds, perhaps even mine.
 
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The only thing we know about the Taliban supposedly getting ready to attack the post is based on Bergdal and some Taliban guys (which ones lol) that she called. And if the Taliban was going to attack how is abandoning your unit not worthy of a Court Marshall?

What about the wiki leaks information?

Hey, I definitely agree that going AWOL is a serious crime, and on more than one occasion I saw people slapped on the wrist for it who should have gone to the fort in Kansas...but it is big step from there to misbehavior before the enemy and desertion in the historical precedents of military law.
 
Afghanistan vet here, with the 3rd SFG. Traitor might be a little harsh. He wasn't fighting against US forces, but a deserter: I think so , misbehavior before the enemy? without a doubt.

If you have issues with your command, there are other ways to deal with it, not just walking off the base. He can file a complaint with the IG. Not that that is going to be easy... I wonder what the other members of his unit thought of him, or is eval history, etc... Sometimes $hitbags feel like they are unfairly being ragged on when in reality the other guys are trying to send a message to get squared away. There's certainly more going on that what's in the media, but people were killed while out looking for him. Yes, people die in war but had he not waltzed off his base, no one would need to go looking. And +1 willbgood: he was most definitely AWOL. Certainly no hero. I'm interested in checking out those links....
 
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Thanks for posting the definitions. I hadn't bothered to look them up lol.

I know little about the wiki leaks data. I know there was some information posted but that is about it. Did I miss it in the podcast?
 
Thanks for posting the definitions. I hadn't bothered to look them up lol.

I know little about the wiki leaks data. I know there was some information posted but that is about it. Did I miss it in the podcast?

No, not really, but if you do the research, you find yourself questioning both Bowes and the Militaries narrative. Of course with multiple communications, the initial confusion, and Wahabi misinformation intended to confuse the rescue effort and gain propaganda value, it is hard to really make any decision based solely upon the leaked documents. They do compel me to pay attention and gather as much info as I can. If I ever judge a man, I want to be sure I have enough facts to back it up...someday we all will answer for our judgements. I endeavor not to make emotional or knee jerk judgements based upon the newspeak of the media talking heads or even the witnesses without corroboration of the facts.

I am going to put my head on the chopping block and also state that in my opinion trading five ragheads for him was a good trade, he is either hero or a villain, and I believe the truth remains to be seen on this matter.

Even if it cost us five terrorists for no other reason to than to bring him to justice, I believe it was a fair trade for guys we can kill later if need be. And this for no other reason than the Wahabi will likely think it is in their benefit to keep a prisoner alive, rather than behead him in the next case. As well, if the facts bear out that he is villain, justice needs to swift, sure, and harsh.
 
Afghanistan vet here, with the 3rd SFG. Traitor might be a little harsh. He wasn't fighting against US forces, but a deserter: I think so , misbehavior before the enemy? without a doubt.

If you have issues with your command, there are other ways to deal with it, not just walking off the base. He can file a complaint with the IG. Not that that is going to be easy... I wonder what the other members of his unit thought of him, or is eval history, etc... Sometimes $hitbags feel like they are unfairly being ragged on when in reality the other guys are trying to send a message to get squared away. There's certainly more going on that what's in the media, but people were killed while out looking for him. Yes, people die in war but had he not waltzed off his base, no one would need to go looking. And +1 willbgood: he was most definitely AWOL. Certainly no hero. I'm interested in checking out those links....

First and foremost, thank you for your enduring and continued service.

Desertion and misbehavior before the enemy do not go hand in hand and both have specific statutory requirements. As of this date, I am not sure I see either. Abandoning ones post is not necessarily desertion, nor misbehavior before the enemy, although it can be both. The investigating officer thought it was neither, the convening authority is not convinced, only a presumption of innocence and court martial can change that in my mind.

He may well be a shit bird, he is certainly by his own statement a moron, but whether he is guilty of an offense that risks death or lifetime imprisonment remains to be seen.

I am also a vet, albeit, of another era. I have seen my share of shit birds, as well as commands stocked full of more of them, then a butterball turkey house. From field grade level down to privates. I even know of one where the Colonel was such a shit bird, he got cashiered, but in the interim, he destroyed men and careers at will, often the non-shitbirds. So, I think I will wait for more evidence, especially in light of the investigating officers report, until court returns its edict.
 
I'm sorry if I came off rash on this one but this just burns me deep inside. I almost lost my life in Afghanistan on more than one account and to think someone died while looking for him just doesn't set right. There are rules and regulations and there other rules that Sheepdogs live by that are just unspoken. It's that drive and desire to keep fighting and protect someone next to you even if you don't like them and I can tell you I had one of those I served with. In the end he needs to be held accountable. I know in the end this is going to be a political BS stunt and he will most likely get not much of anything. When the commander and chief bails your ass out no matter what the reason, the Army or what ever branch is not going to want to make waves. In the end as service members we have to follow orders, even if we don't agree with our boss (even if he is President Obama). I can assure you that a top level General is not going to put his name on this if he ends up with mud on his face. I think it will be a wash in the end more of a puppet show than anything.

Blue
 
All i know is he put down his weapons and walked away in a war zone, and knowing he would be captured by the enemy. To me that is deserting your post, and surrendering to the enemy. I am also a vet. from another era, but era does not matter,we always have rules, orders, and honor. He can kiss my wrinkled up old ass.
 
I'm sorry if I came off rash on this one but this just burns me deep inside. I almost lost my life in Afghanistan on more than one account and to think someone died while looking for him just doesn't set right. There are rules and regulations and there other rules that Sheepdogs live by that are just unspoken. It's that drive and desire to keep fighting and protect someone next to you even if you don't like them and I can tell you I had one of those I served with. In the end he needs to be held accountable. I know in the end this is going to be a political BS stunt and he will most likely get not much of anything. When the commander and chief bails your ass out no matter what the reason, the Army or what ever branch is not going to want to make waves. In the end as service members we have to follow orders, even if we don't agree with our boss (even if he is President Obama). I can assure you that a top level General is not going to put his name on this if he ends up with mud on his face. I think it will be a wash in the end more of a puppet show than anything.

Blue

I agree with some of what you say, but I also hope that the Military has not become so political that that the evidence and the facts are swept under the carpet, to meet some career goal, even if it reveals facts and information that many Americans do not want to face.

One thing I have thought about, is the fact, that if the convening authority did not send this to a Court Martial, based upon the investigating officers report, Bergdalh would never have a chance at any sort of life, or some would always doubt the Armies reasoning and position on this matter. Cover up would be the words of the day, no mater what ones position is.

Either way they verdict needs to be clear, and the evidence and law must support it. Some will never except it either way, but most will.

Secondarily, if the president Pardons him, without some punishment, his life will be over and any chance of rebuilding it, and recovering any shred of honor in this life will likely be lost forever.

Some have said he can never recover his lost honor, but I do not agree, and I must by nature, philosophy, and religion, believe in redemption and the ability for any man to change and make good on his life.

Maybe my beliefs are naïve, but it is who I am, who I will be, and it is the only thing not likely to change in my life. All men even if behind the walls, deserve a chance to redeem their lives, unless they have committed a crime with malice and aforethought that requires their own life. Even then they must be afforded the chance at redemption in the afterlife before their execution...I am just old school that way.
 
All i know is he put down his weapons and walked away in a war zone, and knowing he would be captured by the enemy. To me that is deserting your post, and surrendering to the enemy. I am also a vet. from another era, but era does not matter,we always have rules, orders, and honor. He can kiss my wrinkled up old ass.

Thank you for your service as well.

And you know this how? Clearly he left his post, (AWOL), his weapons were not abandoned in a manner that gave them up to the enemy, or haphazardly left afield, as far as I have seen.

These facts alone open him up to either an Article 15, or a court Martial, (the current scenario), years in prison, reduction in rank, loss of pay, and a dishonorable discharge.

The investigating officer, and any other evidence available, indicates that he did not intend to be captured, and in fact, he made two separate attempts to escape, which on the face of it would appear he did not intend to surrender. But I have not heard or seen all the evidence, so I can not judge it.

Desertion and Misbehavior Before the Enemy are not whimsical terms, they are statutorily defined and strictly interpreted. They are strictly interpreted because they involve death or life in prison. His specific intent must be proven before he can convicted of either, and his specific intent must rise to the statutory requirements and only a court martial, after review of all evidence, can decide that.

Did you know that one of the soldiers serving with him stated he believed at the time that Bergdalh was CIA? Highly unlikely, I know, but combined with the fact, that someone in the chain of command stated almost immediately, when confronted with a missing man from his unit, "oh shit, its Bergdalh". This occured before anyone knew the actual ID of the missing soldier, so it raises questions that need to be answered.

1. Was he being used by the command for some purpose not disclosed, that spiraled out of control, or

2. was he unfit for duty and the command knew it and failed to take action, (dereliction of duty, by UCMJ definition)?

Both are unlikely, yes even improbable, but both are actually possible. It is also possible that the second statement, "oh shit, its Bergdalh" is not fact, or has been misreported.

These are two questions, which I think have not been answered and they need to be, and I hope they will be in his court martial.
 
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I've now listened to all the up to date episodes of Serial, the episodes of Task & Purpose that are covering the season and also Speaking of Serial.

The most recent episodes of serial were actually very very good. Well worth the listen. In particular I suggest listening to episodes 9, 10 and 11.

https://serialpodcast.org/

Serial Episode 9 goes into more detail about the war in Afghanistan and the mission at the time.

Serial Episode 10 discusses the politics around his return home and the now infamous "Rose Garden ceremony" and the comments by National Security Adviser Susan Rice who stated (cluelessly) that Bo served with "Honor and Distinction", a state which rightfully so upset many in the veteran community.

Episode 11 discusses the evidence that a) Bo never should have been in the military and b) Why what he did was wrong (my interpretation)

Another shout out to the Task & Purpose Podcast. I have been thoroughly impressed with this podcast.
Task & Purpose Radio Podcast


Awesome quick podcast story about Stolen Valor
Everyone Has Their Own Solution To Stolen Valor

Another great episode to check out.
What Happens When The Army?s Recruitment Process Doesn?t Work

:surfer:
 

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