Brake Bleeding ... seems different

[Bumbo]

2004 4x4 V6

I was looking at the service manual and it almost sounds like they want to to bleed the front brakes first on this truck?

I dont have the SST / Special Service Tool they use for this job but it just seems really different than any other truck.

Just for "playing" with the think myself I noticed that after a bunch of pumping, like 20-40 pumps, you would hear a sound and the pedal feel totally changes... I read "the pressure in the power supply system is released" or something to do with the accumulator?

Rears keyed on and you use the booster / abs pump to get a consistent flow of fluid.

Really interesting stuff.

That said, my brake pedal still feels a bit soft... seems to have more pedal travel than before to get those brakes really engage. I presume its just more air in the lines but I can get it to really apply some good braking force if I want to stop hard.

I really hope its not a "sloppy" re-manufactured caliper". I hear those things are hit or miss as well. I have another thread about them that didn't really inspire lots of confidence. You can read about if here if you like http://www.toyota-4runner.org/4th-gen-t4rs/232900-inspect-my-re-man-brake-caliper-critique-my-work.html

Can anyone answer me for sure if I should be bleeding the traditional from the rears first (farthest away from MC) deal... or do I really start with the fronts on this truck?

 

[BlackWorksInc]

I'm not entirely familiar with the "manual" method of bleeding these hydraulically assisted systems since I have access to the factory scantool.

The 20~40 pumps with the key off is to release pressure in the accumulator, thus bleeding out assistive force and reducing overall pressure in the system to safe operating levels.

It's possible you didn't bleed the brakes correctly and there's air in the unit, which is trickier to get ot.

 

[Bumbo]

The 20~40 pumps with the key off is to release pressure in the accumulator, thus bleeding out assistive force and reducing overall pressure in the system to safe operating levels.

The way I have been doing it is doing the pumps to release pressure in the accumulator... then I start bleeding the fronts.

It's possible you didn't bleed the brakes correctly and there's air in the unit, which is trickier to get ot.

Keep in mind that the brake pedal feels to apply breaking pressure in a very linear fashion... there just feels like there is more pedal take-up/travel than before the new brakes.

That said I do get some firm resistance towards the end of the stroke, and if I really lean into the pedal, like in a emergency/panic braking with a large amount of input, the car does go to a screeching halt with little to no ABS input on my 32" mud terrains.

So I can get the car to STOP, but feel like a bit more mashing/input/travel on the brakes are required than before.

I kind of want to have Toyota bleed it for me, just so I can have my answer if I did it right, but I would feel even worse if it came back feeling the same, because I just threw away $120 bucks.

I just leave this project feeling like there might be room for improvement... perhaps my expectations are unrealistic... but the car seems safe the drive, and brakes feel consistent from day to day after I did the job. Its just a totally different feel than before.

 

[BlackWorksInc]

[MENTION=144483]Bumbo[/MENTION]

Not sure what to say, sounds like the brakes are working but I am not sure how to explain the difference in pedal feel if they are working well?

 

[Bumbo]

[MENTION=144483]Bumbo[/MENTION]

Not sure what to say, sounds like the brakes are working but I am not sure how to explain the difference in pedal feel if they are working well?

I honestly think its one of my Centric re-man calipers...

I can visually see more movement of one of the pads on the passenger side... and I can also see it "spring back" more than the pad on the driver side. I think this might be some of that take-up I am feeling in the pedal.

Perhaps its just a coincidence but its the same side the ugly pitted piston is on...

Either way... I am going to have Toyota bleed the system tomorrow. I am probably throwing money away buy its just piece of mind and satisfying my curiosity at this point...

If it persists and continues to irritate me even though its "working fine"... I will probably plan another brake job but with 5th Gen or larger 4th Gen calipers. More likely to consider 5th Gen calipers in hopes to get fresher units vs units that have been in circulation for a lot longer.

 

[DMV4runner]

When I did my 5th gen upgrade on my 2008, I couldn't get a good brake feel starting from the front. I tried it twice with the same soft feel.
I did it the old fashion way and that was a lot better. I started RR then LR, RF to LF. They have been working great since then.
Don't forget to follow the pumping instructions before you start.
Good luck. I hope it works for you and saves you $120.
W

 

[Porqupine82]

I honestly think its one of my Centric re-man calipers...

I can visually see more movement of one of the pads on the passenger side... and I can also see it "spring back" more than the pad on the driver side. I think this might be some of that take-up I am feeling in the pedal.

Perhaps its just a coincidence but its the same side the ugly pitted piston is on...

Either way... I am going to have Toyota bleed the system tomorrow. I am probably throwing money away buy its just piece of mind and satisfying my curiosity at this point...

If it persists and continues to irritate me even though its "working fine"... I will probably plan another brake job but with 5th Gen or larger 4th Gen calipers. More likely to consider 5th Gen calipers in hopes to get fresher units vs units that have been in circulation for a lot longer.

I did the GX470 upgrade (same as 5th gen I think) and used brembo pads and rotors. I also used centric rotors. Did this just days prior to your post. Bleeding was a ***** for me. Friend and I bled brakes and they felt fine at first. Drove home and they felt exactly like you're describing. I ended pumping brakes SLOWLY 40 times with ignition ON (not running) then bleeding with bleeder valves as normal. I began with front then went to rear. The rear you won't need to pump just hold and the system will continue to pump. DO NOT LET your reservoir go empty on fluid and your brakes will be back to normal. Please dont pay Toyota 120 bucks to do this!

 

[Bumbo]

Well... I might as well make some final comments and close out this thread.

I did end up going to Toyota and was really upfront with them about why I was there... They road tested the car with me and basically said they understand what I was saying about the pedal feel but even they said it seems like its working.

My problem was that I just didn't know for 100% sure if I did bleed right or not... I ended up having them do it anyways. They came back with good news and bad news... Good news is it seems like I did it right, and saw very little if any change.

They were really accommodating, and even though I hate that I spent $120 on this, at least I have my answer... I got my piece-of-mind that it's road worthy and safe, so money well spent. I just didn't know for sure if I did it right or not. My wife calls it "the cost of tuition"... it was a good learning experience either way. I am happy its just one less thing poking at my brain.

I started to realize that part of the problem was I changed soo many things at the same time. It makes things difficult to diagnose, and perhaps I had unrealistic expectation or what it should feel like.

A friend (GM Master Tech) recommended that I just drive the thing before pointing a finger at the calipers... let the pads wear in, and let everything settle in. I can report back later. Don't look for problems, just drive the car normally. The wife and I took it for a long evening cruse and switched off driving.

The lines really made the truck feel different, its more linear across the stroke than before. Just a different feel, so perhaps that is adding to what I originally thought was a "problem".
I did have some closing comments about my lines in this thread, where someone asked. http://www.toyota-4runner.org/2613947-post18.html

To be honest the more we drive it the better its starting to feel. The lines just have a different feel, its very linear but controlled. If I want more or less braking, its very easy to ask for that and modulate it. I think I need to get more miles on it before I draw final conclusion... just looking at the rotor you can see the rotor surface and pad still feels like its wearing in...

That said... here are some videos... I originally thought that the passenger caliper had more "spring back" and perhaps that is what I was feeling in the pedal with more take-up. I really did see more movement soon after install, but looks like everything has "leveled out".

Front Driver


Front Passenger


Thanks everyone for the help... first time doing brakes. Fun, challenging, and educational...

 

[vastano]

Forgive me for being relatively new to the T4R world...but does no one on here use a pressure bleeder? You couldve bought one and had money left over for the price you paid the dealer. Also, it makes bleeding a 1 man job.

Here is what i'm talking about. Per the Motive site the 4Runner needs the 0101 tank kit with the 1101 adapter:

Tank kit:
https://www.amazon.com/Motive-Produ...id=1487339784&sr=8-11&keywords=motive+bleeder

With this adapter:
https://www.amazon.com/Motive-Produ...qid=1487339784&sr=8-7&keywords=motive+bleeder

really I think any tank kit would work, so itd save you a few bucks ot get one with adapter that youd use on another car. For instance the European Tank Kit (0100) comes with an adapter for most Euro cars, and its even $8 cheaper than the tank linked above.

 

[riceandpho]

Forgive me for being relatively new to the T4R world...but does no one on here use a pressure bleeder? You couldve bought one and had money left over for the price you paid the dealer. Also, it makes bleeding a 1 man job.

Here is what i'm talking about. Per the Motive site the 4Runner needs the 0101 tank kit with the 1101 adapter:

Tank kit:
https://www.amazon.com/Motive-Produ...id=1487339784&sr=8-11&keywords=motive+bleeder

With this adapter:
https://www.amazon.com/Motive-Produ...qid=1487339784&sr=8-7&keywords=motive+bleeder

really I think any tank kit would work, so itd save you a few bucks ot get one with adapter that youd use on another car. For instance the European Tank Kit (0100) comes with an adapter for most Euro cars, and its even $8 cheaper than the tank linked above.

i use a vacuum method, and i just get it out the nipples, started the front then the rears, my pedal feels fine.

 

[catrains]

installing new calipers and rotors pads will cause some braking issues for a short amount of use. the pads must wear in to the rotors. also the rotors must be cleaned some do not wash off the oil on the rotors . the oil is to protect from rust in storage.

so break period will be about a couple of hundred miles ...

even my new T4R did not brake properly 3 miles on it but after a few hundred it was good.

if you pumped the brake pedal too fast you can create bubbles in the brake system and even damage the master . when installing you pump slowly and do not pump pedal down hard all the way to floor..

 

[nicheel8]

Forgive me for being relatively new to the T4R world...but does no one on here use a pressure bleeder? You couldve bought one and had money left over for the price you paid the dealer. Also, it makes bleeding a 1 man job.

Here is what i'm talking about. Per the Motive site the 4Runner needs the 0101 tank kit with the 1101 adapter:

Tank kit:
https://www.amazon.com/Motive-Produ...id=1487339784&sr=8-11&keywords=motive+bleeder

With this adapter:
https://www.amazon.com/Motive-Produ...qid=1487339784&sr=8-7&keywords=motive+bleeder

really I think any tank kit would work, so itd save you a few bucks ot get one with adapter that youd use on another car. For instance the European Tank Kit (0100) comes with an adapter for most Euro cars, and its even $8 cheaper than the tank linked above.

I have the same bleeder. Great writeup on this site:

Toyota 4Runner Brake Fluid Flush

 

[kgbagent]

Forgive me for being relatively new to the T4R world...but does no one on here use a pressure bleeder? You couldve bought one and had money left over for the price you paid the dealer. Also, it makes bleeding a 1 man job.

Here is what i'm talking about. Per the Motive site the 4Runner needs the 0101 tank kit with the 1101 adapter:

Tank kit:
https://www.amazon.com/Motive-Produ...id=1487339784&sr=8-11&keywords=motive+bleeder

With this adapter:
https://www.amazon.com/Motive-Produ...qid=1487339784&sr=8-7&keywords=motive+bleeder

really I think any tank kit would work, so itd save you a few bucks ot get one with adapter that youd use on another car. For instance the European Tank Kit (0100) comes with an adapter for most Euro cars, and its even $8 cheaper than the tank linked above.

Yes, I use the Motive bleeder on all my cars. The Euro adapter cap sure is easier than the generic adapter you are forced to use with the 4Runner. Tightening the rubber gasket is a pain, and a real mess if it is not perfectly sealed...but I rest easy knowing I will not damage my master.

 

[Bumbo]

Forgive me for being relatively new to the T4R world...but does no one on here use a pressure bleeder? You couldve bought one and had money left over for the price you paid the dealer. Also, it makes bleeding a 1 man job.

Here is what i'm talking about. Per the Motive site the 4Runner needs the 0101 tank kit with the 1101 adapter:

Tank kit:
https://www.amazon.com/Motive-Produ...id=1487339784&sr=8-11&keywords=motive+bleeder

With this adapter:
https://www.amazon.com/Motive-Produ...qid=1487339784&sr=8-7&keywords=motive+bleeder

really I think any tank kit would work, so itd save you a few bucks ot get one with adapter that youd use on another car. For instance the European Tank Kit (0100) comes with an adapter for most Euro cars, and its even $8 cheaper than the tank linked above.

I saw vacuum bleeding systems before I started off to do this project but I figured I give it a shot the manual way. The ABS/booster pump on the rear lines was awesome.

That said, waiting for the wife to get home to pump the brakes and all that good stuff started to get old fast after finding something like a leak, or trying to improve the pedal.

If I did it again, I would probably get a completely different bleed kit... I really like the Mityvac MITMV6830 or similar as it uses shop air to create a venturi to creative negative pressure on the line side...

Keep in mind that part of the problem wasn't my lack of ability to bleed the system, its the pedal feel out of the gate which almost felt like air, but it wasn't. Bottom line it was a lack of experience not doing this on a daily basis. I just wasn't sure of my work. I went to the dealer for piece of mind, and I got what I paid for.

After so many changes and such a different feel, probably mixed with unrealistic expectations basically started messing with my brain.

At least with this experience under my belt I can be confident going into the next one... again, cost of tuition. Either way, I saved a boat load of cash doing almost everything else on the car myself so this really wasn't that big of a deal, but I agree, I could have used that money and owned the tooling out the gate.

 

[zimdba]

installing new calipers and rotors pads will cause some braking issues for a short amount of use. the pads must wear in to the rotors. also the rotors must be cleaned some do not wash off the oil on the rotors . the oil is to protect from rust in storage.

so break period will be about a couple of hundred miles ...

even my new T4R did not brake properly 3 miles on it but after a few hundred it was good.

if you pumped the brake pedal too fast you can create bubbles in the brake system and even damage the master . when installing you pump slowly and do not pump pedal down hard all the way to floor..

How can you tell if you damaged the master cylinder?

 

[catrains]

How can you tell if you damaged the master cylinder?

the master is a pump piston . if it is damaged the brake pedal like when stopped at a traffic light will gradually drop to the floor.

this is similar to also a leak in the brake pressure system leaking lines/brake cylinders.etc.. if no loss of brake fluid then this points to the master.

when bleeding pump pedal slow and not smash the pedal to the floor ..