Brake Bleeding Woes: Minimum line really Minimum?

[Capnemo]

I installed Russel Speed Bleeders on my rear brakes before starting on the TBU.
The first one worked great it seemed. The second one as soon as I cracked it, less than 1/8 turn it started a quick dripping. Should have tightened it right up but proceeded to push fluid through and out trying to flush out the old stuff. Tightened it down, tapped it a few times with a small gunsmithing hammer but it still dripped quickly which I think means air was getting in. Swapped in a new speed bleeder from the package for the the front brakes. Seemed to work fine.
Pushed more fluid through but not a whole lot as it appeared to be new fluid coming out when I checked.

Tightened it down and took a quick spin to check the braking before starting the TBU. SPONGY and ineffective brakes!

Now the lighting was not the best when I was adding fluid to the reservoir and I thought the Minimum line was the Maximum, it is fairly high. But the lowest I ever let the fluid fall was halfway down the plastic input plug with wires (sensor?) on the driver's side of the reservoir, it looks high enough that no air would have entered the master cylinder.

But it was a fair bit below the Minimum line. Do I need to bleed the master cylinder? I can look for a how-to, meanwhile I will try bleeding the rear again, not sure if I only have to do the driver's side that had the problem bleeder or if I need to start from scratch.

I should probably mention I had Styrofoam behind the the brake pedal and never depressed the pedal more than an inch and a half while pushing through the fresh fluid.


UPDATE: Now the first speed bleeder, passenger rear, is rapidly dripping just as soon as I crack it loose a couple degrees, not even 1/8th turn. There is either pressure in the system (key off) or it is somehow not working, and I assume if it is dripping then air is going back in between each drip. Might have to treat the speed bleeders as regular bleeders and do it the old school way.Still do not know if air got into the master cylinder but I think likely not.

 

[nevada]

I installed Russel Speed Bleeders on my rear brakes before starting on the TBU.
The first one worked great it seemed. The second one as soon as I cracked it, less than 1/8 turn it started a quick dripping. Should have tightened it right up but proceeded to push fluid through and out trying to flush out the old stuff. Tightened it down, tapped it a few times with a small gunsmithing hammer but it still dripped quickly which I think means air was getting in. Swapped in a new speed bleeder from the package for the the front brakes. Seemed to work fine.
Pushed more fluid through but not a whole lot as it appeared to be new fluid coming out when I checked.

Tightened it down and took a quick spin to check the braking before starting the TBU. SPONGY and ineffective brakes!

Now the lighting was not the best when I was adding fluid to the reservoir and I thought the Minimum line was the Maximum, it is fairly high. But the lowest I ever let the fluid fall was halfway down the plastic input plug with wires (sensor?) on the driver's side of the reservoir, it looks high enough that no air would have entered the master cylinder.

But it was a fair bit below the Minimum line. Do I need to bleed the master cylinder? I can look for a how-to, meanwhile I will try bleeding the rear again, not sure if I only have to do the driver's side that had the problem bleeder or if I need to start from scratch.

I should probably mention I had Styrofoam behind the the brake pedal and never depressed the pedal more than an inch and a half while pushing through the fresh fluid.


UPDATE: Now the first speed bleeder, passenger rear, is rapidly dripping just as soon as I crack it loose a couple degrees, not even 1/8th turn. There is either pressure in the system (key off) or it is somehow not working, and I assume if it is dripping then air is going back in between each drip. Might have to treat the speed bleeders as regular bleeders and do it the old school way.Still do not know if air got into the master cylinder but I think likely not.

as long as there was still fluid in the MC you didn't suck air in. the minimum line is when the brake warning light comes on.

though it does sound like you need to bleed it more. I know many people like those speed bleeders. but the very best way is with 2 people. one cracks the bleeder, the other depresses the pedal.

 

[Capnemo]

I think the minimum line is well before when the brake warning light comes on, at least the middle of the gray plug with wires on the driver's side of the reservoir is a good inch below the minimum line. I did not go below that.

 

[19963.4lsr5]

as long as there was still fluid in the MC you didn't suck air in. the minimum line is when the brake warning light comes on.



though it does sound like you need to bleed it more. I know many people like those speed bleeder. but the very best way is with 2 people. one cracks the bleeder, the other depresses the pedal.

Amen.

I bought a pressure bleeder to eliminate the second person.

I’ve also open a bleeder, push pedal to the floor with a 2x4 and wedge it into the seat and then go close the bleeder and then remove 2x4 and replete.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[pluton]

"SPONGY and ineffective brakes!
Yep, that's what I got from speed bleeders. Returned them
" I know many people like those speed bleeder. but the very best way is with 2 people. one cracks the bleeder, the other depresses the pedal."
Hence, no need for speed bleeders.
Actually, you can bleed with one person and no pressure/vacuum gimmicks. Length of rod or wood or PVC pipe set between the seat cushion and the brake pedal for tension. Bleed in the normal way. You just have to go back and re-set the rod between pedal and seat for each single bleed-valve opening. You get a bit of exercise doing this.

 

[Capnemo]

I might be missing something... but why does pedal need to be held down while you go back and tighten the bleeder, IF the hise is well submerged under brake fluid AND one pumps a bunch of fluid through well after any bubbles have been ejected? I mean the bubbles will have gone diwn the hose into the fluid jar and surfaced, the only thing sucked back into the bleeder will be fluid, IF you have pumped well past the point where air has been eliminated. As long as the bleeder hose is airtight.

 

[thegipper]

^ This is how I've always bled my brakes, never had an issue on any vehicle I've done it on.

 

[nevada]

I might be missing something... but why does pedal need to be held down while you go back and tighten the bleeder, IF the hise is well submerged under brake fluid AND one pumps a bunch of fluid through well after any bubbles have been ejected? I mean the bubbles will have gone diwn the hose into the fluid jar and surfaced, the only thing sucked back into the bleeder will be fluid, IF you have pumped well past the point where air has been eliminated. As long as the bleeder hose is airtight.

it would only be necessary if all the air isn't out. sometimes its very difficult and takes quite a while to get it all out. if you release the pedal with the bleeder open, the fluid will draw back towards the MC, moving any air that may still be in the line back closer to the MC. essentially you will just be moving those bubbles back and forth, instead of removing them.

 

[repo]

The front and rear bleeder screws are different. I think the fronts are longer. I replaced mine with regular Dorman (I think) ones a while ago, and use a mityvac to bleed them. I also got some permatex thread sealant (same stuff they put on the speed bleeders as far as I can tell) but never bothered using it. The Mityvac always has little bubbles when bleeding from air getting sucked through the threads so I just bleed each one until the little jar is full and call it good. I like to completely flush out the old fluid every couple of years anyway. This is on my 99, I believe the later years have a different bleeding method.

 

[rightyouareken]

Perhaps I'm missing something, but I don't understand your concern about the bleeder dripping fluid slightly when you crack it open. Speedbleeders are essentially the same as regular bleeders in practice when it comes to fluid traveling from the master cylinder to the bleeder. The Speedbleeders only prevent flow back upwards from the bleeder to the master cylinder when you left off the pedal.

I just replaced my master cylinder and installed Russell speed bleeders at all four corners and didn't have any issues bleeding the system at all. Here was my process (take note, I have a 2002, so the more complex electric/hydraulic booster system, but the basics of bleeding are the same):

1) After master cylinder and speed bleeders installed, I topped up the master cylinder to the full line.
2) On the right front wheel, I installed a bleeding container with silicone tube. The container had about 2" of brake fluid in the bottom. I cracked the bleeder open and went to the driver seat and pumped the brake pedal 10-15 times to get fluid into the master. Once the bleed container was about 2/3rds full, I closed the bleeder.
3) Repeated step 2 on left front wheel
4) Repeated step 2 on right rear wheel (note, on 01-02 4runners, the key has to be turned on to bleed the rears due to the master cylinder/booster design)
5) Repeated step 2 on left rear wheel
6) Repeated step 2 again on right front wheel
7) Repeated step 2 again on left front wheel.

Done and dusted, solid pedal.

I don't think it matters if the bleeder drips a bit from the tip when you crack it open. It isn't supposed to prevent this. It's supposed to prevent air getting sucked back in. Once you get the tube hooked up to your bleed container and it fills with fluid, no air should be getting back in the bleeder in any way, so as long as you keep the master cylinder reservoir topped up you shouldn't have any issues.

FWIW, I've used Speedbleeders for 20 years on a variety of cars and pretty much swear by them. They make bleeding so easy, and I never need an assistant.

 

[rightyouareken]

The front and rear bleeder screws are different. I think the fronts are longer. I replaced mine with regular Dorman (I think) ones a while ago, and use a mityvac to bleed them. I also got some permatex thread sealant (same stuff they put on the speed bleeders as far as I can tell) but never bothered using it. The Mityvac always has little bubbles when bleeding from air getting sucked through the threads so I just bleed each one until the little jar is full and call it good. I like to completely flush out the old fluid every couple of years anyway. This is on my 99, I believe the later years have a different bleeding method.

According to Russell, the front and rears on the 3rd Gen both use the same bleeders. I used the same on all 4 corners of my 2002 and they worked fine.

Truck and SUV Application Guide - Speed Bleeders - Russell Performance Products

 

[phattyduck]

The Mityvac always has little bubbles when bleeding from air getting sucked through the threads so I just bleed each one until the little jar is full and call it good.

Grease around the base of the bleeder threads will seal out the air getting in there. If the hose seals well on the bleeder, you can make it bubble free.

If the system stays free of air (just changing fluid, not all new components), then the bubbles aren't really an issue anyway though, like you said.

-Charlie

 

[repo]

Grease around the base of the bleeder threads will seal out the air getting in there. If the hose seals well on the bleeder, you can make it bubble free.

If the system stays free of air (just changing fluid, not all new components), then the bubbles aren't really an issue anyway though, like you said.

-Charlie

I worry about getting any contaminants in to the system that's why I was hesitant about the thread sealant, which seemed like a cleaner solution than grease. Grease should be safe though right? I'll try it next time. The tiny bubbles are pretty annoying.

 

[RS Dude]

I've been bleeding my brakes (mostly solo) for 43 yrs on all my vehicles without speed bleeders or any other gadget. The trick is to make sure the drain hose goes above the bleeder so that air bubbles rise and are not sucked into the caliper while you pump the brakes. The other end of the hose is placed into the receiving container with used brake fluid to prevent the hose from draining while you pump brakes:hello:

 

[repo]

According to Russell, the front and rears on the 3rd Gen both use the same bleeders. I used the same on all 4 corners of my 2002 and they worked fine.

Truck and SUV Application Guide - Speed Bleeders - Russell Performance Products

I just looked it up my records and I actually used OEM ones and they had different part numbers and from what I remember they were different lengths. Don't know if it makes any real difference though.

Replaced front brake bleeder screws (silaramic grease on threads) (47547-20030)

Replaced rear brake bleeder screws (silaramic grease on threads) (47547-12010)

 

[rightyouareken]

I just looked it up my records and I actually used OEM ones and they had different part numbers and from what I remember they were different lengths. Don't know if it makes any real difference though.

Replaced front brake bleeder screws (silaramic grease on threads) (47547-20030)

Replaced rear brake bleeder screws (silaramic grease on threads) (47547-12010)

I see. That could be. The threads are the same but perhaps one set is slightly longer. I didn't look at my stock bleeders too closely when I removed them.

 

[AntleredRuin]

Yeah, I don't think the dripping matters, as long as it doesn't drip when tightened up.
Mine dripped a bit when I did them but all turned out fine.
I just put a 2x4 under the pedal and made sure the master cylinder lid was closed when pumping. I pumped the brake about 15 pumps, then checked/topped off the MC level, rinse repeat. Put about a pint through each caliper and it stops GREAT now.


There IS pressure in the system, in the form of the brake booster. It stays depressed where you left it, more or less, unless you pump the brakes a couple time with the system off.

 

[Capnemo]

OK, thanks for all the posts, I feel a bit better. Bled two more times, 3/5 of a bottle. Will proceed with the TBU. Was wanting to flush the old fluid anyway....