Brake Pedal Feels Soft 2017 TRD Off Road

[zzdocxx]

Brake Pedal Feels Soft 2017 TRD Off Road


I just noticed this in the last month or so. First time driving through LA on the 405 when I had to stop suddenly. I never got the rapid duh-duh-duh-duh-duh of the ABS. The pedal seemed to go much further than usual and I felt like I had to practically stand on it. I mean when I really had to brake hard that first time, the stuff on my passenger front seat all ended up on the floor. It scared me.

Something similar has happened a couple of times since then. On one occasion I had a brief moment of skid. But still no rapid on/off like I am used to with ABS.

I took it into the mechanics' today. The tech said he couldn't reproduce that on his test drive. I told them go ahead and change the fluid and bleed the lines anyway, as I am due for that in 5K miles anyway (@60K).

Tried it coming home, at first the pedal seemed a little soft. I tried some hard braking but not sure it was as was as hard as in a real life situation.

The pedal firmed up after hitting the brakes a few times. I had noticed that this morning when I was driving in.

Is that indicative of anything, the pedal firming up after a few pumps ?

They said it also "could be" the booster cylinder for the ABS, which is some astronomical amount to fix, like in the $2K range. :wow:

I had asked if the ABS could be involved because it felt like it didn't kick in even on the one occasion that I had a brief skid. Unless there is a new type of ABS that doesn't give you thatrapid on/off thing ? Or could some other issue cause the ABS to not function properly, eg. a bubble in the line somewhere ?

So that is the situation, any ideas on this ?

A big THANK YOU to everyone for all the help provided here !

:clap2:

Just remembered one more thing, no instrument panel lights relating to ABS have come on.

 

[somenoise]

I think you may be using "ABS" and "power braking" interchangeably. Sounds like something wrong with your power braking, be it the brake booster, like they said, or some other part of the system. The pumping you described is how all brakes used to work before power brakes, so you are definitely doing the right thing by constantly pumping to increase braking rather than a single strong push.

 

[Beach5150]

The brakes on my 2017 Off Road feel mushy too!
My wife had a 2016 SR5 and the brakes on it were firm and crisp.

But I can attest that the ABS works great! Saved my bacon it did.
I wasn't really paying attention when a car in front of me, initially making a run for a yellow light, suddenly slammed on the brakes.
I’m an old school well trained x-emergency vehicle driver. My first instinct was to threshold brake (where you keep it at the threshold of a skid with leg muscle control).
With reaction time, I braced to plow into him. And then did the panic mash on the brake. This system freakin works! It made all that racket like crawl control does and stopped just in time. I was so close I thought the front dip was going to tap him.

It seemed like there was no in between though. It didn’t let me foot the pedal very firmly and result in a hard braking.

On a side note, I also noticed a huge difference in engine breaking, especially down hill. Her 2016 SR5 had really good engine braking when you let off the gas.
In my ‘17 Off Road I may as well let off the gas and put it in neutral.

 

[wcjeep]

Our 2017 had weird brake pedal feel when new. Had a panic stop. Afterward the brakes felt decent.

 

[zzdocxx]

I think you may be using "ABS" and "power braking" interchangeably. Sounds like something wrong with your power braking, be it the brake booster, like they said, or some other part of the system. The pumping you described is how all brakes used to work before power brakes, so you are definitely doing the right thing by constantly pumping to increase braking rather than a single strong push.

Dang I wrote a long reply which disappeared somehow.
Short version, two seperate issues.
1. ABS function, usually manifested as "stuttering" not working.
2. Brake pedal soft, firmer on 2nd/3rd application. Not normal.
One of the other might be faulty which could affect the other one I'm thinking.
Not looking forward to the cost of replacing master cylinder or ABS cylinder.

 

[2021nightshade4x4]

1.) Check your brake fluid fill after their flush.

2.) I had a big Dodge Durango (whose brakes feel most like my T4R) that had “plenty large” tires, as well as 4 wheel disc brakes with ABS which I had confirmed was working in inclement conditions.

However, one day when I had to make a panic stop in fair weather, the ABS did not engage (because the brakes didn’t lock up, technically) my brakes were simply “maxed out” despite fresh pads and rotors on 4 corners done at the dealer that year.

Let me try to explain what I mean by “maxed out”:

1.) Normal driving and braking felt really good, typical
2.) Pedal was NOT touching floor / at end of range of travel
3.) I felt good power assist, however the firm and quick press of the pedal did not cause tires to bark, hence not engaging ABS
4.) Collision avoided, but sometimes I imagine you just won’t get ABS if you’re not actually losing traction or locking up a wheel


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Bmnorm2]

ABS only actuates when tire slip occurs. To confirm it is working find a low mu surface (gravel, grass, ice, smooth wet concrete, etc..) and slam those brakes, you'll get the duh-duh-duh if its working.

Loss of braking pressure is likely booster or leak. Do you have to continuously pump the brakes over a drive to get any pedal response?

What tires are you using? Have you changed recently? Off-road tires typically reduce braking performance and feel soft/squishy.

 

[zzdocxx]

Took it to dealer today.

55015 internal failure/low pressure 1.00 Found C1452 Accumulator Low Pressure. Checked and verified low pressure from ABS actuator. Recommend ABS actuator assembly.

Correction - Found C 1452 accumulator low pressure. Recommend ABS actuator assembly.

Labor $800 parts $2964.67
Total $3764.67

 

[CavPro]

My first thought is; I'm glad I sprang for an extended warranty.

 

[Bmnorm2]

Took it to dealer today.

55015 internal failure/low pressure 1.00 Found C1452 Accumulator Low Pressure. Checked and verified low pressure from ABS actuator. Recommend ABS actuator assembly.

Correction - Found C 1452 accumulator low pressure. Recommend ABS actuator assembly.

Labor $800 parts $2964.67
Total $3764.67

:yuck::yuck::yuck:

On a 2017.. how many miles? That's a serious failure and safety issue for such a new vehicle. I would petition Toyota corporate to cover it.

 

[zzdocxx]

:yuck::yuck::yuck:

On a 2017.. how many miles? That's a serious failure and safety issue for such a new vehicle. I would petition Toyota corporate to cover it.

Thanks for the suggestion, I'm not sure how to go about doing that.

BTW I have tried to find the relevant parts but I think the language in the service documentation was non-specific and I am not entirely sure what the "ABS Actuator Aseembly" is. I have googled it but it is a bit confusing.


Update:

I spoke with my regular shop earlier and gave them the info/codes/etc and they have called me back. They think they have figured out exactly what part is needed, however their price on it, new, OEM, is $2700. So I asked whether if I found a used one, they could install it for me. She said yes, and also that they have people they use who can scour around for one, who are honest, etc.

I have seen similar used parts in the range of $300-600, so I've got my fingers crossed. The only difference was they were all for 2005 and earlier models. Hoping to find the part from a rear-ended vehicle.

Fact is, I was getting ready to head to Tijuana tomorrow to hit the Toyota dealer and a highly recommended brake shop, but I think I will hold off. Because the part, and not the labor will be the main part of the expense.

I welcome any other thoughts on this, and thanks to all for your input.

 

[Humble Leader]

Update:



I welcome any other thoughts on this, and thanks to all for your input.

I would replace with the new OEM part. your rig is new and hopefully you just had a bad assembly. and maybe see if toyota can cover any of this although I doubt it but worth a shot

 

[Bmnorm2]

Contact Us | Contact Toyota

Scroll to the bottom “need further assistance” and call. Considering the age and nature of the device it’s highly unlikely the failure was caused by “abuse” and so I think the Toyota engineers will be interested in tearing down this unit and Toyota may cover repair. This is totally abnormal and not a normal “wear” item. You will have to put the effort in, but you have a decent chance in this case IMO

 

[zzdocxx]

I would replace with the new OEM part. your rig is new and hopefully you just had a bad assembly. and maybe see if toyota can cover any of this although I doubt it but worth a shot

I hear you on that, new OEM (only comes OEM) would be best, the only thing is we are talking in the neighborhood of $4,000, ouch !

Not sure on how to go about approaching Toyota on this, I wonder if they would just stall me as long as possible. Meanwhile it would be nice if I knew I could rely on my brakes.

Someone offered this thought -- it is a part which so rarely fails, that if I get a reasonably late model one then not likely to fail.

I didn't buy an extended warranty, just had the 3/36 or whatever the factory warranty is.

From Toyota website:
=======================

Every Toyota vehicle is supported by a 36-month/36,000-mile limited warranty coverage. But it doesn't stop there.

On top of our basic coverage, we offer:

Basic Coverage1

36 months/36,000 miles (all components other than normal wear and maintenance items).

Powertrain Coverage1

60 months/60,000 miles (engine, transmission/transaxle, front-wheel-drive system, rear-wheel drive, seatbelts and airbags).

Rust-Through Coverage1

60 months/unlimited miles (corrosion perforation of sheet metal).

Emissions Coverage1

Coverages vary under Federal and California regulations. Refer to applicable Warranty & Maintenance Guide for details.

For Toyota hybrid vehicles beginning with model year 2020, the hybrid (HV) battery is covered for 10 years from original date of first use or 150,000 miles, whichever comes first. Coverage is subject to the terms and conditions of your New Vehicle Limited Warranty. See Owner's Warranty and Maintenance Guide for details.

=======================

So frustrating ! ! !

:frusty:

 

[zzdocxx]

Contact Us | Contact Toyota

Scroll to the bottom “need further assistance” and call. Considering the age and nature of the device it’s highly unlikely the failure was caused by “abuse” and so I think the Toyota engineers will be interested in tearing down this unit and Toyota may cover repair. This is totally abnormal and not a normal “wear” item. You will have to put the effort in, but you have a decent chance in this case IMO

Thanks for that, I will give it a try.

 

[Humble Leader]

I hear you on that, new OEM (only comes OEM) would be best, the only thing is we are talking in the neighborhood of $4,000, ouch !

brakes and tires are two things that I never skimp out on. I never push them past their intended use and I have always replaced with new OEM parts. I get there might be a way to save money on a take-off part from another 5th gen but to me it's a tradeoff of how long I'd be willing to look for a part or wait for someone else to look for a part and find one and getting a very important repair done. I need my vehicle drivable every day (lots of highway miles) and I carry more than just myself in it - so for me it's an easy decision

everyone will have their own views on this because one is costly, quick, effective and generally a repair that you won't have problems with again and the other method is time consuming, you are getting a used part and you don't have optimal brake performance in the interim. It's not like youre putting $4K into a rig that has 300k miles on it. its basically brand new and that new OEM part should last for many many years

in terms of approaching toyota I've had to do this in the past with lexus. it helps to approach the dealer you purchased the vehicle from. I had an issue with my rx350 tailgate, well out of warranty, and I went to the dealer I purchased it from. I was polite, explained the situation and they agreed that I shouldn't have to pay for that particular repair. lexus fixed it no questions asked - about a $2K repair. I didn't have to contact toyota/lexus at all. perhaps ask them to cover parts and you cover labour?

I know a lot of folks like to do their own repairs/maintenance . but one of the benefits of taking your vehicles to a dealer is that you build a service history after years of going. when things like this come up they can easily point to the history and say yep this guy did everything right, all service milestones were met and this part still failed well beyond it's life expectancy. it's in a dealers best interest to get this repaired/covered by toyota because it keeps you happy and it gets them $$$. they still need to have a defendable case though

 

[zzdocxx]

brakes and tires are two things that I never skimp out on. I never push them past their intended use and I have always replaced with new OEM parts. I get there might be a way to save money on a take-off part from another 5th gen but to me it's a tradeoff of how long I'd be willing to look for a part or wait for someone else to look for a part and find one and getting a very important repair done. I need my vehicle drivable every day (lots of highway miles) and I carry more than just myself in it - so for me it's an easy decision

everyone will have their own views on this because one is costly, quick, effective and generally a repair that you won't have problems with again and the other method is time consuming, you are getting a used part and you don't have optimal brake performance in the interim. It's not like youre putting $4K into a rig that has 300k miles on it. its basically brand new and that new OEM part should last for many many years

in terms of approaching toyota I've had to do this in the past with lexus. it helps to approach the dealer you purchased the vehicle from. I had an issue with my rx350 tailgate, well out of warranty, and I went to the dealer I purchased it from. I was polite, explained the situation and they agreed that I shouldn't have to pay for that particular repair. lexus fixed it no questions asked - about a $2K repair. I didn't have to contact toyota/lexus at all. perhaps ask them to cover parts and you cover labour?

I know a lot of folks like to do their own repairs/maintenance . but one of the benefits of taking your vehicles to a dealer is that you build a service history after years of going. when things like this come up they can easily point to the history and say yep this guy did everything right, all service milestones were met and this part still failed well beyond it's life expectancy. it's in a dealers best interest to get this repaired/covered by toyota because it keeps you happy and it gets them $$$. they still need to have a defendable case though

Great idea, I'll see if I can get through to anyone with authority to make decisions over at the original dealership.

After my two years of free service, I have been taking my rig to an independent shop. Do you think that will make a difference ? They do keep meticulous records.

 

[Humble Leader]

Great idea, I'll see if I can get through to anyone with authority to make decisions over at the original dealership.

After my two years of free service, I have been taking my rig to an independent shop. Do you think that will make a difference ? They do keep meticulous records.

It helps to bring the service records from the independent shop but toyota will likely say 'we can't speak to or verify the quality of the work done'. it sort of changes the argument when someone whose been a loyal customer for years that did everything by the book (aka continuous revenue stream) has an issue vs someone who has currently no economic value to the dealership

usually a good service department will try and work with its customers. many of them are willing to explain and take time to try and find a solution, within reason. many people go in there guns blazing all angry demanding compensation and I see all the time people becoming automotive experts scrutinizing the cost and frequency of recommend maintenance. people seem surprised it actually costs money to maintain a vehicle in good working order

anyways, I digress. be nice and reasonable and that will be your best chance of getting help from toyota. costly repairs are simply part of owning a vehicle

 

[zzdocxx]

Just contacted the dealer, got a service department cashier who said "I'll ask my manager", then basically that he said it was not covered. Also that I should contact Toyota corporate about this.

Just got off phone with a customer service rep, she was nice and very helpful, senior reps were busy and so I am supposed to get a call back within one business day. (by end of Monday?)

Fingers crossed.

Meanwhile, the independent shop has called me back, they've found a used one for $1K and their labor would also be $800 for a total of $1800.

If Toyota will help me out on this, great. The thing about this particular used part, as someone has mentioned, is that failures are probably rare, or we would have heard much more about it, even to the point of a recall or investigation, because of the major safety implications.

If push comes to shove, I may still go with the used part, although I have to say the point about the confidence/security with putting in a new part is very well-taken, and I appreciate that input.

PS Totally get it about the cost of maintaining a vehicle ! (That's why I haven't bought another BMW, as yet anyway . . . )

 

[Humble Leader]

Just contacted the dealer, got a service department cashier who said "I'll ask my manager", then basically that he said it was not covered. Also that I should contact Toyota corporate about this.

Just got off phone with a customer service rep, she was nice and very helpful, senior reps were busy and so I am supposed to get a call back within one business day. (by end of Monday?)

Fingers crossed.

Meanwhile, the independent shop has called me back, they've found a used one for $1K and their labor would also be $800 for a total of $1800.

If Toyota will help me out on this, great. The thing about this particular used part, as someone has mentioned, is that failures are probably rare, or we would have heard much more about it, even to the point of a recall or investigation, because of the major safety implications.

If push comes to shove, I may still go with the used part, although I have to say the point about the confidence/security with putting in a new part is very well-taken, and I appreciate that input.

PS Totally get it about the cost of maintaining a vehicle ! (That's why I haven't bought another BMW, as yet anyway . . . )

hope this gets resolved for you. lucky you were able to get a good part in a relatively short time. It was a long shot that toyota would cover this so there's no surprise there when they said no. I would expect the same from corporate but you might get lucky again! even if they did cover it will probably be more expensive than the used part but then again you are getting a new part