Bring back the power

[bawachhe]

Thanks again everyone for all the infos!

I think it might be good for me to clean off the throttle body and indeed a bunch of other things in the engine, to help find any issues if there are any, power regardless, so I'll do that sometime soon.

Thanks DC Runner for the details on water injection, sounds somewhat unuseful then.

ebg18t it might be exactly that, a special track day car type thing. Does your track car have charging? That's apparently where it really helps.

MarkinWMich, thanks for explaining about the gearing. It's an interesting idea, but I use a lot of both city and highway, and have a variety of driving moods (ergo foot weight on the throttle) so I guess Toyota's factory gearing with its averageness (or so I assume) would probably work best, until there comes an easy way to change it on the fly.

m85476585 WOW that's extremely detailed. I'm not in the mood to read it all right now, haha. (skimmed a bit through the first and second pages.) but I'll definitely save that link for later.

 

[bawachhe]

Here's another semitangential thought: CAI and/or exhaust [headers].

I've heard somewhere that these things may get more air into/out of the engine in a better way (particularly when tuned properly to match) but it's all hearsay so far. Thoughts? More costly or beneficial? And rough pricing, for that matter.

Again TIA, this has been an awesomely informative thread so far :]

 

[wnelax04sr5]

Here's another semitangential thought: CAI and/or exhaust [headers].

I've heard somewhere that these things may get more air into/out of the engine in a better way (particularly when tuned properly to match) but it's all hearsay so far. Thoughts? More costly or beneficial? And rough pricing, for that matter.

Again TIA, this has been an awesomely informative thread so far :]

unless you get tuning like URD's MAF, which adjusts the air-fuel ratio and is programmable for both an intake and exhaust, you won't see any real power. the manufacturers of the products claim power, but you may only feel it in the butt dyno. keep in mind this is coming from someone who has a CAI and a catback, headers may be a different story because the stock manifolds aren't all that great and don't seal well, [MENTION=63211]emelianenkov[/MENTION] has long tubes and [MENTION=26817]SkylineGTRracer[/MENTION] has headers too i think

 

[RPS13]

The app is probably reasonably accurate. Keep in mind that it's also including aerodynamic drag, which is (obviously) not seen on a chassis dyno. As I'm sure everybody here knows, the aero drag on a 4Runner in 3rd gear and up is very considerable.

 

[SkylineGTRracer]

unless you get tuning like URD's MAF, which adjusts the air-fuel ratio and is programmable for both an intake and exhaust, you won't see any real power. the manufacturers of the products claim power, but you may only feel it in the butt dyno. keep in mind this is coming from someone who has a CAI and a catback, headers may be a different story because the stock manifolds aren't all that great and don't seal well, [MENTION=63211]emelianenkov[/MENTION] has long tubes and [MENTION=26817]SkylineGTRracer[/MENTION] has headers too i think

I have had long tubes, enjoyed them, and would recommend them. Very good mid range and top end. I currently have equal length headers and like these too.

 

[bawachhe]

I have had long tubes, enjoyed them, and would recommend them. Very good mid range and top end. I currently have equal length headers and like these too.

unless you get tuning like URD's MAF, which adjusts the air-fuel ratio and is programmable for both an intake and exhaust, you won't see any real power. the manufacturers of the products claim power, but you may only feel it in the butt dyno. keep in mind this is coming from someone who has a CAI and a catback, headers may be a different story because the stock manifolds aren't all that great and don't seal well, [MENTION=63211]emelianenkov[/MENTION] has long tubes and [MENTION=26817]SkylineGTRracer[/MENTION] has headers too i think

Lovely! Sounds like I have basically four options (and proper, probably URD tuning to match) in inclusive-able form. Cold air intake, equal-length exhaust headers, long manifold (right?) tubes, and possibly catback; each designed to increase airflow and reduce restrictions thereto.

This all sounds like it'd cost me a pretty penny altogether if so, so acquisitions may have to happen over time if I were to get them all. Based on experience or knowledge (and still other than maintenance-based improvements that I'm definitely also going to make), what is the average cost of each? How easy to put in? What's most beneficial of the four (or other airflow increase stuff I've missed)? Also, pricing and process for tuning?

I think I hear that things to focus on in order of most to least effective would be equal length headers, long manifold, CAI, and catback. Please correct me if that sounds wrong (but try to respect each other's opinions as there's probably a variance).

Two other questions/things I thought of for generally making the car a bit more quick.

One, related, anyone know any good systems/kits to fiddle with the tunings at home? Of course I understand the gravity of messing with that directly, but I feel an innate desire to know how, being a programmer by trade and having messed with any number of other devices' internal code (here assuming the tuning stuff is mostly a bunch of ECU-stored digital data).

Two, the transmission does (by design it would seem) take a breath before shifting (actually it seems like the length of its breath is connected to the engine speed, but I could be wrong). Any thoughts or stories or sudden recollections of something that could make it shift a bit faster without killing it? I am not sure if this relates to the fluid or not (it's not acting funny as fluid problems might cause, just slow).

Forgive my layman-ness and thanks very much for all the info so far and hence. :]

 

[black4vcobra]

Lovely! Sounds like I have basically four options (and proper, probably URD tuning to match) in inclusive-able form. Cold air intake, equal-length exhaust headers, long manifold (right?) tubes, and possibly catback; each designed to increase airflow and reduce restrictions thereto.

This all sounds like it'd cost me a pretty penny altogether if so, so acquisitions may have to happen over time if I were to get them all. Based on experience or knowledge (and still other than maintenance-based improvements that I'm definitely also going to make), what is the average cost of each? How easy to put in? What's most beneficial of the four (or other airflow increase stuff I've missed)? Also, pricing and process for tuning?

I think I hear that things to focus on in order of most to least effective would be equal length headers, long manifold, CAI, and catback. Please correct me if that sounds wrong (but try to respect each other's opinions as there's probably a variance).

Two other questions/things I thought of for generally making the car a bit more quick.

One, related, anyone know any good systems/kits to fiddle with the tunings at home? Of course I understand the gravity of messing with that directly, but I feel an innate desire to know how, being a programmer by trade and having messed with any number of other devices' internal code (here assuming the tuning stuff is mostly a bunch of ECU-stored digital data).

Two, the transmission does (by design it would seem) take a breath before shifting (actually it seems like the length of its breath is connected to the engine speed, but I could be wrong). Any thoughts or stories or sudden recollections of something that could make it shift a bit faster without killing it? I am not sure if this relates to the fluid or not (it's not acting funny as fluid problems might cause, just slow).

Forgive my layman-ness and thanks very much for all the info so far and hence. :]

You are getting your parts a little mixed up. If you were to upgrade the exhaust manifolds you'd have to pick either equal length headers or long tube headers. Long tubes will give you the most power but they are the most expensive and hardest to install but equal length headers will give you a nice bump too. I'm not sure what brands of long tubes are available, some guys took Tundra headers and made them work. Doug Thorley might now have long tubes available also.

Most people don't actually recommend a CAI as a drop in filter will give you almost as much of a power gain, though both will be very small.

A catback will give you a couple of horsepower and more importantly (to me anyway) an exhaust note that actually lets you and others know you have a V8 under the hood. There are several different brands that are very popular - Gibson, Magnaflow, Flowmaster, Borla.

I'm unsure of what guys do to tune their 4Runners but I do know that it's not something you want to mess with if you don't 100% know what you are doing. Here is a link for upgraded ECM's, maybe other guys can chime in Performance Electronics - Underdog Racing Development

As far as your transmission, since you have an older 4Runner, you can change out the fluid easily. It might not help it shift faster but it won't hurt.

 

[emelianenkov]

unless you get tuning like URD's MAF, which adjusts the air-fuel ratio and is programmable for both an intake and exhaust, you won't see any real power. the manufacturers of the products claim power, but you may only feel it in the butt dyno. keep in mind this is coming from someone who has a CAI and a catback, headers may be a different story because the stock manifolds aren't all that great and don't seal well, [MENTION=63211]emelianenkov[/MENTION] has long tubes and [MENTION=26817]SkylineGTRracer[/MENTION] has headers too i think

I LOVE my long tubes!!!!

No more catalytic converters, much more low end rumble, and above 2,200-2,500RPM, the 1GR-FE shines with the improved flow

 

[bawachhe]

You are getting your parts a little mixed up. If you were to upgrade the exhaust manifolds you'd have to pick either equal length headers or long tube headers.

Oh I sort of knew those were effectively the same, but I also figured you could in a way get both by just picking longer tubes that might implicitly have equal[ish] length anyway. But good, now I know what to prioritize budget on.

I'm unsure of what guys do to tune their 4Runners but I do know that it's not something you want to mess with if you don't 100% know what you are doing. Here is a link for upgraded ECM's, maybe other guys can chime in Performance Electronics - Underdog Racing Development

I was thinking to start off just looking "readonly" at the various settings and what they do to learn. Thanks for the link, it's a good start. And I do hope more folks can chime in.

I LOVE my long tubes!!!!

No more catalytic converters, much more low end rumble, and above 2,200-2,500RPM, the 1GR-FE shines with the improved flow

I like all of that, but, no more cat? As in you just don't have one at all? I don't know if California would appreciate that so I might have to deal with it.. unless you somehow mean there's a magical way to get rid of the airflow restriction imposed by the cat while maintaining a healthy enough emissions standard to keep the law happy.

As always, thanks for the infos :]

 

[AKmoney]

Here's another semitangential thought: CAI and/or exhaust [headers].

I've heard somewhere that these things may get more air into/out of the engine in a better way (particularly when tuned properly to match) but it's all hearsay so far. Thoughts? More costly or beneficial? And rough pricing, for that matter.

Again TIA, this has been an awesomely informative thread so far :]

I have a hard time believing things like CAIs and exhaust headers would do much for V8 4runner performance. The ECU shifts the transmission at 5000rpm on a WOT upshift (at least on the non-VVTI models like mine). This is incredibly low by today's standards; a diesel BMW revs nearly as high. Unless you can increase that shift point via software up to say, 6000, the extra breathing provided by these modifications is essentially unused. It may actually make driveability worse since backpressure helps low end torque.

 

[emelianenkov]

Lol no I got a sketchy shop that doesn't check emissions, plus we don't do that smog bullshit here.

I had 4 cats. Now I have 0

 

[emelianenkov]

And now my exhaust smells glorious under acceleration with the back window open. No more eggs

 

[bawachhe]

I have a hard time believing things like CAIs and exhaust headers would do much for V8 4runner performance. The ECU shifts the transmission at 5000rpm on a WOT upshift (at least on the non-VVTI models like mine). This is incredibly low by today's standards; a diesel BMW revs nearly as high. Unless you can increase that shift point via software up to say, 6000, the extra breathing provided by these modifications is essentially unused. It may actually make driveability worse since backpressure helps low end torque.

You may be right about how things might not do much for performance, although I don't think it's got much to do with the revs except as a byproduct of other engine factors.

The backpressure comment didn't make physics sense to me so I looked around and found a corvette forum where someone (seemingly) very scientifically explained the idea.

Why does back pressure affect torque??????? - Corvette Forum

TL;DR: physics makes things unbelievably complicated, but the gist is that generally unless things are very expertly engineered and/or tuned, torque is generally opposed to HP. Apparently, for more torque, the gases flowing around in the engine need to move faster, and for more HP, more of them need to move. It's possible to increase both but mostly that happens at production and not aftermarket.
And as far as I understand, backpressure only helps if the timings are such that the exhaust valve is open while a cylinder is being refilled with air/fuel mix, because backpressure will push unburned mix back into the cylinder that falls out while the exhaust valve is still open. It doesn't seem to really explicitly help torque as backpressure so much as simply pressure, which generally makes things go faster, which as semi-explained above makes torque better.

At least that's how I understand it. Did anyone else understand the corvette forum post better than me and cares to enlighten?

 

[bawachhe]

Lol no I got a sketchy shop that doesn't check emissions, plus we don't do that smog bullshit here.

I had 4 cats. Now I have 0

And now my exhaust smells glorious under acceleration with the back window open. No more eggs

Lucky man. I'd like very much to not smell eggs with the back window open (although for my confused nose it's more of a searingly strong smell that reminds me of fresh cat litter). I'll have to keep my cats on for now, I guess.

 

[MarkinWMich]

Magnaflow does make catalytic converters, headers, etc. for the 4th gen 4Runners. Some are direct fit pieces and anothers that are a universal fit (may require some cutting and bending of tubing at the exhaust shop). I have no idea how they compare, to the OEM cats with regards to flow...one must not assume it is better without actually checking the specs.

Having said all that, you generally do not gain any power (torque or horsepower) over OEM unless, at some point, there becomes some type of flow restriction or limitation. So, unless you've got a heavy foot, got your rig geared like crazy, or otherwise are routinely seeing 3000+RPM, you probably won't obtain any measurable gains in power. The same could be said for intake systems, as well. When a company makes claims of "25+HP!" keep in mind that this is peak HP, at WOT, done on a dyno. If you take the time to actually look at those dyno graphs they post, you will find that very little, if anything, happens below 3000RPM.

Your head-cam-intake-exhaust combination is specifically engineered for it's application. For a 4Runner, it means, low-RPM, daily-driver application. So, whenever you are doing engine mods, keep in mind the realities of your application...is it back and forth to work in stop and go traffic, is it 90% highway, is it a trail only rig, a full-on race machine, and so on.

 

[AKmoney]

TL;DR: physics makes things unbelievably complicated, but the gist is that generally unless things are very expertly engineered and/or tuned, torque is generally opposed to HP. Apparently, for more torque, the gases flowing around in the engine need to move faster, and for more HP, more of them need to move. It's possible to increase both but mostly that happens at production and not aftermarket.
And as far as I understand, backpressure only helps if the timings are such that the exhaust valve is open while a cylinder is being refilled with air/fuel mix, because backpressure will push unburned mix back into the cylinder that falls out while the exhaust valve is still open. It doesn't seem to really explicitly help torque as backpressure so much as simply pressure, which generally makes things go faster, which as semi-explained above makes torque better.

That's pretty much the long and short of it. Like I said, with a 5000rpm shift point programmed via software I doubt the V8 could ever take advantage of the extra breathing capability of exhaust or intake modifications. It would be too risky to lose low end torque. That's what the engine was designed for in the first place. The only reason I'd consider swapping in exhaust headers is because the factory manifolds are known to crack anyway and they might be a cheaper alternative.

My take on it is that if you want to go faster you should probably be looking at a different vehicle. How about a Supercharged Range Rover? They depreciate fast. This being said, with 111K miles on the clock my truck accelerates and keeps up with traffic without any issues. It's not fast, but it never feels underpowered.