keyser_soze
New member
I actually just got the MS8 back from a friend the other day, I will put it back in my 4Runner soon. Right now Im running straight from the amp, it still sounds good honestly.
Can I get an amp inside the console?
- Thread starter THEDK
- Start date
I actually just got the MS8 back from a friend the other day, I will put it back in my 4Runner soon. Right now Im running straight from the amp, it still sounds good honestly.
Yeah until I figure that if you don't mind, I want to see what that frequency drop off sounds like with an aftermarket system
rigtec
New member
Have you considered using a "miniDSP-in-a-box" processor? The reason that I use it is because it's a 'software driven' Stand alone device that gives me 'TONS' of professional audio system control through it's (expandable) parametric eq. The hardware takes up no more than 4 'cubic inches' of physical space, take a look:
The "miniDSP" is software driven (digital), and so can create no noise of it's own. This device is operated by what is known as "a plug-in"; just a fancy word for a software program that's used to drive the hardware. And here's what you'll use to control the 'on-screen' audio signals:
6 HIGH AND LOW-PASS X-OVERS
12 BANDS OF "PARAMETRIC EQ" ...six bands on the front-end, six on back-end. All have adjustable frequency centers!
The "miniDSP 2x4 kit" costs $110 bucks for the hardware and $10 USD for the "plug-in" (firmware) download; which you'll pay for ONCE! Adjustments to your audio system are made via a laptop 'In Real Time', so you will hear the changes as you make them. When you're done making the periodic adjustments to your vehicle's sound system, just unplug the micro-USB cable and the changes are saved to the system! One of the best things about using the miniDSP to implement system EQ-ing is... no dashboard installation, trim cutting, or space negotiating in the cabin because the program resides on your laptop; only a 4" x 4" x 2" circuit board will remain in the truck to process your 'pre-determined' filter settings; here's a link to the miniDSP kit:
https://minidsp.com/products/minidsp-in-a-box/minidsp-2x4
https://minidsp.com/products/accessories/minidc-isolator
https://minidsp.com/products/plugins/2-way-advanced-21-detail
You'll need to purchase a line output converter (LOC) and tap your 4Runner's Front Speaker wires and feed that signal to your amplifier(s); here's a link to some LOCs online: https://www.amazon.com/PAC-SNI-35-V...3694651&sr=8-1&keywords=line+output+converter
Hope you'll find this helpful!
rig
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Wow that is freaking perfect. The last time I bought car audio stuff is when ms-8 was just an announcement.
I had wondered when we would see things like that come to market.
I'm thinking of porting the ARC 8s and tuning them to 30hz. That ought to help with the sub 30hz gap in the playback. Plus, built in subsonic filter, I guess.
> I wonder how much space is in the front doors.
> Still have to design a hidden sub enclosure that I can pop in and out that doesn't take tons of room. If I do the ARC 8s sealed, they like .33 each.
> Use low pass crossovers on the door and gate speakers so they don't play over 180hz, use for slight midbass feel if I want to.
Sound damping:
Some ensolite to isolate backwave in front doors,
maybe a few thin strips of RAAMAT on the doorskins.
I'm not a huge fan of effort vs reward on sound deadening. I had about 130lbs of stuff in my last car.
* ETA:
Just listened to my Focals to make sure they still work. Now I really wish I'd kept my Dynaudios!
I had wondered when we would see things like that come to market.
Code:
Factory Head Unit > Front Wires > line-outs > mini DSP > PDX4.150
12v > line filter ^
PDX 4.150
|-------------> Focal Utopia 165w @ 80hz, tweeters in dash.
|-------------------> 2x ARC 8s @ TBDI'm thinking of porting the ARC 8s and tuning them to 30hz. That ought to help with the sub 30hz gap in the playback. Plus, built in subsonic filter, I guess.
> I wonder how much space is in the front doors.
> Still have to design a hidden sub enclosure that I can pop in and out that doesn't take tons of room. If I do the ARC 8s sealed, they like .33 each.
> Use low pass crossovers on the door and gate speakers so they don't play over 180hz, use for slight midbass feel if I want to.
Sound damping:
Some ensolite to isolate backwave in front doors,
maybe a few thin strips of RAAMAT on the doorskins.
I'm not a huge fan of effort vs reward on sound deadening. I had about 130lbs of stuff in my last car.
* ETA:
Just listened to my Focals to make sure they still work. Now I really wish I'd kept my Dynaudios!
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rigtec
New member
I thought this photo would give a better idea of the actual size context of my "Sub-bass processor!" "see the BLUE arrow!"
...and that's it! The only other thing that I was advised to install was the "miniDC Isolator/Amp stage sequencer!" https://minidsp.com/products/accessories/minidc-isolator/. What this does is, it brings up/down your system components in the proper order e.g., EQ/X-over then the amps last... to prevent the electronic audio equipment from releasing a power-up/power-down... "KA-BANG!", that could 'potentially' cause substantial damage to the subs from the power surge as it enters the audio signal; this uses the reverse "In-sequence" order to shut-down all of the electronics to protect your investment, cost is $12 bucks!
See the 'mini-DC Isolator-Sequencer' in the photo as highlighted by the two BLUE arrows, and the 'miniDSP-in-the-box' with the RED arrow accent!
Rgds!
...and that's it! The only other thing that I was advised to install was the "miniDC Isolator/Amp stage sequencer!" https://minidsp.com/products/accessories/minidc-isolator/. What this does is, it brings up/down your system components in the proper order e.g., EQ/X-over then the amps last... to prevent the electronic audio equipment from releasing a power-up/power-down... "KA-BANG!", that could 'potentially' cause substantial damage to the subs from the power surge as it enters the audio signal; this uses the reverse "In-sequence" order to shut-down all of the electronics to protect your investment, cost is $12 bucks!
See the 'mini-DC Isolator-Sequencer' in the photo as highlighted by the two BLUE arrows, and the 'miniDSP-in-the-box' with the RED arrow accent!
Rgds!
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rigtec
New member
I think you're gonna build a GREAT audio system in your truck, IF... you set some realistic goals for yourself, let physics have her way and work along side of her by using your head! I hear a lot of low frequency wavefront reproduction "hearsay-Not-theory" being tossed around these forums lately, but a great amount common sense... is being ignored. Now you have an opportunity to design a system that works and sounds really good, primarily because you haven't wasted/thrown away any money yet chasing myths and folklore, "I applaud you for that!"
If you run your eight inch drivers the way they were intended to be driven, they'll give you a high sound quality that you can be proud of! But, if you punch them out (adding a port) in hopes of gaining some low bass 30-35HZ that they cannot reproduce at a respectable spl levels, they'll sound like ship at all levels; even some club/concert low-freq systems struggle to reproduce 45-50hz at any respectable club levels with out distorting... and they've got the 'mega-watt-amps' at their finger tips to drive them; but (as you know...) "grand-daddy physics" isn't on our side! I'll give you one example of a problem with that, and then I'll ('try to') stop w/o a :yell:
A 30hz soundwave will be 37.5 feet in length, but to reproduce such a large wave-front in a small, 10' environment, would create a condition for phase cancellation, and poor SQ. I've got a feeling that your sound system will exceed the SQ of the system that's being removed, only... 'take-your-time'!
rig, Cheers!
flyinhawaiian01
New member
rigtec, if you're talking about me in reference to the low frequency cutoff, its not hearsay, I've physically done the testing myself, and just because I didn't take the time to make a video collage or take pretty pictures of what my findings were, doesn't mean that its not true.
I have no reason to bullshit anyone here, I simply posted what my findings were. For someone who seems to know a hell of a lot of audio theory, you seem to miss the whole fact that if a system isn't balanced, it will not perform.
There are a few variables in creating lineal bass in the 4 runner while using the stock head unit, one being that there are JBL and non-JBL systems, my experience is with the non-JBL system. Whether the two are designed the same, I don't know, but I am damned sure that the non-JBL system will drop bass at specific volume levels, which will NOT allow you to balance system properly. Even with all these fancy electronic devices that allow you to artificially "boost" bass in specific frequencies, such as the LC2i that I personally used (and still have, now sitting on a shelf), they will do nothing if there is no input to be increased! It simply cannot create what has been removed by the head unit's processing, which is mainly done to preserve the stock speakers.
I'm glad you're here to add a wealth of technical knowledge for members, but please don't dismiss my findings as "hearsay", or to say what you really wanted to, bullshit. I surely am not up on all the latest gadgetry that has hit the car audio market in the past several years, and I'm no genius when it comes to a technical build-out of a vehicle, but I am more than knowledgeable in putting together a quality-sounding, well-balanced system. Owning and running a car audio/alarm shop for 7 years, and being an installer since 1985 (that's working at actual shops, not installing Kraco radios in my friend's garage!) gives me enough knowledge to build systems properly.
I stand by my statement that you will never, ever build a quality-sounding system with linear bass while using the NON-JBL system. It may sound good at lower volumes, but if you turn past the point where it nulls frequencies, it will quickly fall short of a good-sounding system. Perhaps if you don't include any subwoofer and purely rely on door speakers for your system, you may be okay, but anything with a bassline will be noticeably unbalanced.
I have no reason to bullshit anyone here, I simply posted what my findings were. For someone who seems to know a hell of a lot of audio theory, you seem to miss the whole fact that if a system isn't balanced, it will not perform.
There are a few variables in creating lineal bass in the 4 runner while using the stock head unit, one being that there are JBL and non-JBL systems, my experience is with the non-JBL system. Whether the two are designed the same, I don't know, but I am damned sure that the non-JBL system will drop bass at specific volume levels, which will NOT allow you to balance system properly. Even with all these fancy electronic devices that allow you to artificially "boost" bass in specific frequencies, such as the LC2i that I personally used (and still have, now sitting on a shelf), they will do nothing if there is no input to be increased! It simply cannot create what has been removed by the head unit's processing, which is mainly done to preserve the stock speakers.
I'm glad you're here to add a wealth of technical knowledge for members, but please don't dismiss my findings as "hearsay", or to say what you really wanted to, bullshit. I surely am not up on all the latest gadgetry that has hit the car audio market in the past several years, and I'm no genius when it comes to a technical build-out of a vehicle, but I am more than knowledgeable in putting together a quality-sounding, well-balanced system. Owning and running a car audio/alarm shop for 7 years, and being an installer since 1985 (that's working at actual shops, not installing Kraco radios in my friend's garage!) gives me enough knowledge to build systems properly.
I stand by my statement that you will never, ever build a quality-sounding system with linear bass while using the NON-JBL system. It may sound good at lower volumes, but if you turn past the point where it nulls frequencies, it will quickly fall short of a good-sounding system. Perhaps if you don't include any subwoofer and purely rely on door speakers for your system, you may be okay, but anything with a bassline will be noticeably unbalanced.
rigtec
New member
Hi fh,
...first thing,...I wasn't referring to you or your system. Second thing... I was referring to mini subs (5, 6, and 8 inch drivers) that people Claim will reach 15hz, 20hz, 25hz 30hz... and not only that but they actually believe that their speakers will reproduce ultra-low (synthesized) sub-bass ranges from their hollow, un-braced, thin metal door/tailgate speaker baffles. If this were true, just why on earth would anyone carry such massive low freq reproduction equipment??? Just because a speaker manufacturer publishes a data sheet that "Claims" a 25hz reproduction doesn't mean you'll actually hear that in a real world installation.
Most low freq speaker (Fs= free air res.) test are conducted in ideal conditions in a lab with the test amplifier set @1w, the microphone is positioned in very close proximity to the speaker's dust dome... and is why they can achieve such a flat frequency response down to 20hz but you'll never actually hear this in your system because what they don't tell you is that the 20hz frequency band is at NEGATIVE 15 dB and the car doors being an inadequate environment for any sub bass to take place. I get really annoyed with false data spreading because the folks here may run out and spend cash for speakers, believing that they're buying subs when in fact these door speakers are capable of "mid-bass ONLY!"
With all that said... I never mentioned the HU's frequency bandwidth even once! Rgds
flyinhawaiian01
New member
Rig, I completely mis-read your reply and took it as a hit on my replies, and I sincerely apologize for that!
As I said, you really do have a wealth of information, and lots of it is quite technical (which I understand and appreciate!), but its the internet and sometimes its hard to discern a post's content, I obviously did that this morning! Sorry 'bout that!!!
As I said, you really do have a wealth of information, and lots of it is quite technical (which I understand and appreciate!), but its the internet and sometimes its hard to discern a post's content, I obviously did that this morning! Sorry 'bout that!!!
rigtec
New member
WOW!...you don't waste any time do you(?)!!, Now that's impressive! I think you'll really enjoy using the miniDSP-in-a-box kit because of the flexibility and expandibility of this system. For real time support, there's a community discussion board (for newbies) much like our own for asking questions and learning how to better manipulate the systems: https://minidsp.com/forum/minidsp-for-newbies
Your equipment will be shipping from 'Hong Kong' China and may take some time to arrive so don't worry about the delay as you'll only need to do this ONCE! ...and their time is set twelve hours behind (or ahead??).
There ya go, all that matters is the sound that's being reproduced and the fun (or frustration) you'll have 'Building-n-tweakin' the system!
BTW: How many inputs/outputs does you kit come with e.g., 2 in/4 out (2x4), 4 in/8 out (4x8)... mine only has 2 in/4 out (2x4), as it's only allocated to the subwoofers in the truck so I'll use six frequency bands of parametric eq and set the center (hub) frequencies where I need them (24, 31, 41, 52, 64, and 80HZ)... which can be changed whenever I need them changed!
Cheers!
I got the 2x4. I'm looking forward to the "simplicity"
My last system I ran active dyn 8 mids on 340w and tweets on 90w, plus an idmax... Off an alpine 9855
I had multiple 31 band eqs I used.to tune each side independently, then used the built in 5 band parametric to adjust both sides at once. I fiddled with that damn thing endlessly.
My last system I ran active dyn 8 mids on 340w and tweets on 90w, plus an idmax... Off an alpine 9855
I had multiple 31 band eqs I used.to tune each side independently, then used the built in 5 band parametric to adjust both sides at once. I fiddled with that damn thing endlessly.
rigtec
New member
Hey Chris,
'No harm done' bro... it's like you said... all this social/technical exchange is being done via 'THE BIG WWW'! I was replying to the OP's comment about modifying some eight inch speakers and locating them in the doors and then, well... "See the quote below":
Once again, "Don't stress man!"
Cheers :cheers:
Ohhh, ha-ha. No the arc8s are going in the back. The focal 6s up front. I made that really confusing by the way I wrote that
rigtec
New member
I meant to mention these. They go hand-in-hand with the LOC for when tying in your HU's speaker outs to the amp(s); no cutting speaker wires!
Posi-Products™ Wire Connectors 6 tap connectors for 16- to 18-gauge wire — tap into wire without cutting or stripping at Crutchfield.com
'Best to you'
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rigtec
New member
Yeah but (maybe I'm missing something) my point was that our car doors won't support any legitimate low frequency soundwave extension because (1) they're not sealed (or ported) so unable to control the speaker cones. (2) The lack of bracing allows the thin metal panels to sympathize with the driver cones; absorbing energy and resonating along with the speaker cones. (3) Any waves developed below say... 200 HZ will be subject to phase cancellation due to poor baffling and front to rear speaker cone exposure!
"Did I miss something... help me out here..."
Been there done that, had 300-watt Dynaudio 8" midranges in a fiberglass door. That was freaking gross sounding, huge waste of time and effort.
No amount of playing with phase and delay could help. Might as well have mounted them on a rubber band.
Strangely enough every car install I've ever done if I had even a reasonable in mid bass speaker, 160 Hertz was just unbearable
rigtec
New member
Makes perfect sense! Now, if you were to research the question: "At what frequency will a 'midbass' driver behave in a 'Ported' enclosure, the very same way that it would in an Infinite Baffle enclosure?" ...your answer would be at about 200 HZ!
At 200hz there's no benefit to porting a sealed cabinet because the (200 CPS) back-wave moves far too fast to control the back-n-forth motion of a bass speaker's cone! So, at 200 cps a sealed box and a ported box work the very same way!
cheers
