Can I not use a static bridle or soft shackle in a Snatch recovery?

[GogDog]

Ok...so I'm now gathering my initial set of recovery gear. First, I'm starting with generic maxtrax (xbulls) and a snatch strap. (among other things like a viair compressor, shovel, hitch shackle, tire repair, etc)


I was planning on getting the ARB 24K snatch strap (3"x30'), and a 10' tree saver strap/extension strap....maybe a second longer "static" towing rope too.


Initially thinking of using the tree strap as a bridle for the 2 front recovery points on the 4nr (or other stuck vehicle). Though I then thought...hey, maybe get a static rope like this one ->

https://www.southeastoverland.com/static-bridles-3-8-19-600-lbs?search=bridle

Because then I could use a snatch block to equalize the load between the two recovery points. Then learned...that is a really bad idea.....you should only use a snatch block for static recoveries with a winch. Fine. But...southeast overland states the bridle ->

The bridle is intended to be used with a snatch block and for static pulls only.

So...was thinking the tree saver (static) shouldn't be used either as a bridle?

Then....was thinking of buying "upgrade" shackles....soft shackles from like bubba rope or south east overland. They are about the same strength as good steel shackles, but I wouldn't have to worry about side loading them or them flying through the air and killing someone. Also...I could use a soft shackle to join a snatch strap with an extension strap in the middle, instead of threading the two straps together (with a magazine at the connection).

However...southeast overland says for their soft shackles ->

Do not use for dynamic (snatch) recoveries.

So what is right? Ronny Dahl recommends static bridles in his snatch recovery videos (he doesn't talk about soft shackles). ->

https://www.youtube.com/watch?annot...&feature=iv&src_vid=uZPdzWsNotY&v=KcUDgmSMhWk

I would assume using a static bridle would be just fine since the whole purpose of the snatch rope is to more gently apply pressure to the stuck vehicle...thus....more gentle pressure on your static bridle...

Maybe southeast overland just says not to use a static bridle because they want you to buy their kinetic bridles? Not sure though why they would say don't use a soft shackle though...

 

[wfo9]

You are over thinking it.. Snatch strap to a single point on the truck will be fine in all but the most extreme case.

You can also bridle but you don't need a snatch block involved. Just a tree saver using shackles will get the job done.

 

[TowMeOut]

Sounds like we're in a similar position. I've been slowly putting together recovery gear but so far only had to use it to extract other folks. I got the generic maxtrax (something on Amazon) but haven't used them yet. A smittybilt winch now hangs off the front. I've got an assortment of static and kinetic straps plus a handful of rated shackles and one snatch block. I even spent the money on the Hi-Lift "winch" kit while I was saving up for my real winch. So far I've only used that to yank a piece of drainage pipe from under the sidewalk but it worked great.

All that said, I think they don't want you using the soft shackles for a kinetic recovery due to liability. Sure, they're crazy strong but they don't really "lock". They grip tight on a straight pull but I think repeated "jerks" might tend to make them move around into a bad position. That's just a guess.

I've got a 4th gen with the slightly beefier front "tow" points. These are at least 5/8" in diameter and welded straight to the frame horns. I realize they're not technically recovery points but they're way stronger than the ones earlier in the series. For an "easy" pull where I'm really just barely stuck I think using just one will be fine. If I was framed out in deep mud I'd do a bunch of digging first, then likely rig a bridle with one of my static straps and connect that to either the winch line or recovery strap (depending on how I'm being pulled). It's going to give me a bit more length and divide the force going to the recovery points in half.

 

[GogDog]

I forgot to call Southeast Overland today to ask why I shouldn't use their soft shackles (or static bridle) in a snatch recovery.

But...I have been doing a lot of research...and have learned a few things.

I was planning on getting a 24K ARB snatch strap in case I needed to yank a truck out, but read that you should size the snatch strap based on the lightest of the vehicles in the recovery. Makes sense......lets say if you used a 33K snatch strap because one vehicle is some 3/4 ton truck and the other vehicle is my 4runner, the 33K strap is going to act like a tow strap on my 4runner because its the 4nr isn't heavy enough. So I'll get the 17.5K ARB snatch strap.

I also found the ARBs are rated well -> http://unsealed4x4.com.au/snatch-strap-comparison/

I was also watching this interesting video ->
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8trkgFX6wI

At the end, I think they were using 4 snatch straps connected together. However...it looks like they were cow hitching the straps together. For example, they take strap A's Loop, pull it through the eye of Strap B, and then push Strap A's entire length through that same Strap A's loop. Looks like this ->

You can see it here ->

However...I've heard you are supposed to make a reef knot with the straps, by passing Strap A through one eye of Strap B, then pass that same Strap A eye over the end of Strap B (i.e., Strap B's second loop goes through STrap A's eye) ->

Which is also shown in Ronny Dahl's video ->
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qV9lr6hBXJg

Now...I would assume doing a cow hitch that you lose more strength than a reef knot. However, its also easier to do. Like...if you are connecting the 4th strap to 3 straps already connected together, you would have to disconnect the end of the strap on the bogged vehicle, and then pass the entire length through the 4th strap, and then reconnect. With a cow hitch, you are just dealing with the free end of the long 3-strap-connected strap.

Thoughts on that?

 

[GogDog]

Oh..and I was learning about the differences between kinetic straps vs ropes.

If I understand it correctly, basically the rope gives you 30-40% stretch vs a strap of 20-25% stretch. Which means the rope is great for snatch recoveries. Its also possible that the rope lasts longer. It looks like some believe the rope lets you do more snatch recoveries/attempts in quicker succession without damaging the rope, though others believe they are made of the same materials so that's not correct. Not sure what to believe on that part.


The price difference is real though. An arb 17.5K strap costs around $62, while a bubba rope 19K rope is $159, though a southeast overland rope is $115. So, 2 to 2.5X more than a strap. The other big disadvantage to a rope is the storage size.....a rope takes 4x as much storage space as a strap, which is a big deal to me.

Oh, and I notice that bubbarope uses soft shackles with their Kinect ropes...its right on their homepage ->

 

[Jetboy]

You could never do enough recoveries fast enough to cause a thermal problem with any tow strap. There is a ton of marketing and a little information. Stretchy straps are less likely to do damage to the vehicles. Use them for vehicle extraction. You don't need a bridle unless you're doing something very unusual. The stock tow points are just fine for vehicle extraction. They're stronger than any appropriately sized tow strap.

Finally - if you're spending more than about $500 on all this stuff - save for a while longer and buy a winch and mount. It's more useful than all the tow straps and bridles and traction pads you can load up. I have it all. The most useful things to have are a winch, an air compressor, and a high lift jack - in that order. It's pretty rare to ever use anything other than a strap to go around an anchor point once you have a winch. A snatch strap is better because you can wrap it around large boulders where a tree strap is too short, so if you only have one - buy the long one first. Rope takes up a lot of space. IMO skip it.

Just my .02. Save your money. Buy a winch. Be done with it.

 

[DesertCanyons]

Recovery gear options

There's a lot to digest here. You've done a lot of reading and research. I'll just show you what I've done.

Here's a bridle that I made from 1/2" high grade rope. Add a snatch block and it will equalize the loading to both tow points. I also added a 2nd tow hook on the back of the frame. Take a look at the two links I'm going to paste here and see how I did it.

http://www.toyota-4runner.org/general-discussions/218848-how-make-bridle.html

I asked a lot of the same questions last year and got some really good feedback. Take a look at what other folks said about their recovery gear and then see what I eventually chose for my gear.

http://www.toyota-4runner.org/5th-gen-t4rs/213078-recovery-gear-options.html

The cost of a winch is prohibitive. You need a winch mount to put it on and it requires cutting off all or part of the front bumper below the headlights. The cost with a new front bumper and a good winch could be from $2500 to $3000. It could be lower, like $2000 to $2200 if you go with a partial front bumper and an inexpensive winch. The front bumper and winch add lots of weight and may require a suspension upgrade.

I'm carrying a come-along winch, which has other uses too. Search for an American Power Pull or Wyeth-Scott come-along winch. Both of these are top notch and cost under $150, IIRC.

 

[GogDog]

Yeah, I looked into a lowpro bumper and a smittybilt winch ($655)...all together its around $2000. I might still do it in the future.

Generic maxtraxx: $90
Arb Snatch strap: $62
Arb tree saver: $42
1x Soft shackle: $30
2x 4.75 shackles: $35
Rear hitch mount: $35
Rear hitch pin: $11
Total: $305

And really, $111 of that (shackles/hitch mount) you would need if you had a winch or not. (and yes, I'll be getting a viair compressor, shovel, etc too)

So to start out...$200 vs $2000 for a winch. Pretty good until I can justify a winch with how hard of offroading I'm going to experience.

And...I did read those threads of yours. They were definitely helpful.

Though...on your static bridle...you have ->

You aren't using a snatch block on a dynamic/kinetic recovery, right? I'm pretty sure that is a really big no-no.

 

[Jetboy]

You should be able to buy a synthetic rope superwinch and a 2in receiver cradle plus a Curt front receiver hitch and a remote mount fit kit for about $700. That's probably the cheapest way to get into a winch. With one of the partial front bumper sets or a hidden winch mount I think your minimum cost of entry is probably closer to $1,000. But if you're already spending five or six hundred dollars on all of the other stuff, it's not as big of a jump as it might seem. Especially with the ridiculously high priced versions of some of these recovery equipment options. On the other hand if you're starting with a $50 tow strap, $1,000 for a winch is a long way off. But the o p has already spent probably $1,000 just on skid plates.

 

[DesertCanyons]

...

And...I did read those threads of yours. They were definitely helpful.

Though...on your static bridle...you have ->

You aren't using a snatch block on a dynamic/kinetic recovery, right? I'm pretty sure that is a really big no-no.

That's a photo for illustration only. That's a cheap garden variety rope on the shackle and tied to my back porch post just so I could lift the snatch block off the ground.

 

[GogDog]

Ok...I talked with Southeast Overland. I don't want to put words in their mouth, so this is just what I took away from our conversation.

Basically...the static bridle they sell isn't rated for the shock load given from the snatch rope. I.e...officially untested. However...that doesn't mean that you can't use it like that...because it should be plenty strong to handle it. Its just not officially tested for it. And...the rep on the phone said they have used a static rope bridle in a snatch recovery themselves. So...the warning on the website is more of a liability issue than anything.

Same for their soft shackle. Though the reasoning is different there. Basically...in a snatch recovery, everything is slack until the moment of the recovery. So...their soft shackle says not to use in a snatch recovery because the loop around the knot might get loose while it was laying on the ground or the eye might hit the knot too hard during shock load part of the recovery. And...it wasn't specifically tested for it. However again, it seemed like more of a liability issue.

On the other hand...I called Bubbarope...and got a 180. They were more than happy to tell me to use their gatorjaw soft shackles in a snatch recovery (after all...its right on the image on their homepage) and could use their static tree straps as a bridle too.


So, I'll probably get a variety of soft shackles (to be used to join two straps together in the middle of a line, or where steel shackles can't be used like a rock slider), and steel shackles (cost less, and use them on areas with a sharp edge, like a hitch receiver).

 

[GogDog]

A character trait of mine is generally to research way more than I need to before most any purchase. Right now...its on shackles. I did find this interesting webinar (its 45 minutes, but just skip around a bit and its more like 10 minutes) ->

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=251&v=r8O7SknMrIs

Here are some of the more interesting slides ->

Anyway...I know bolt type resists side loading more, but if it binds I'll have to have 2 wrenches to loosen. Plus, there are more pieces to lose per shackle. If I get a hitch receiver that allows for vertical shackles, then I shouldn't have to worry about it as much.

So...I also believe that these are the best shackle companies: Crosby, Gunnebo, CM, Campbell, Van Beest. And...with those, these seem like the best two options:

1. Van Beest 3/4" shackle (Van Beest Screw Pin Anchor Shackles - Green Pin Shackles
)
Only $16, 4.75T WLL, and what I like about the shackle is that its smooth (the WLL and other info is inbedded into the shackle on the inside of the eye). So...it won't potentially fray rope or straps.

2. Campbell 3/4" alloy shackle (https://linemansequipment.com/riggi...ampbell-5411295-3/4-alloy-anchor-shackle.html
)
$24, 7T WLL since its alloy. So if it does get side loaded (and loses 30-50% of its working load), its still close to a normal shackle WLL. It does have raised lettering on it, but at least its smooth at the "top" of the eye where a strap normally goes (unlike a Crosby...that has a big "CROSBY" lettering at the top. Other problem with Crosby is the price!).

Anyway....of those two shackles, which would you pick?

 

[Jeremy556]

As mentioned above, you are seriously over thinking this stuff. If you need a bridle to distribute load between recovery points, you should probably rethink your entire recovery approach.

I spend a ton of time on trails and in the back country. Here's what I use:
On board air: twice a week to several times per day
Snatch strap: every other month, to recover someone else's stuck vehicle
Winch: once a year to get myself unstuck
Shovel: once a year to get myself unstuck
Hilift: every other year to get unstuck

Buy quality equipment, pay attention to load ratings and most importantly use common sense.

 

[GogDog]

Yeah...you are absolutely right. And I know that about myself...I generally always overthink, or over-research stuff. I guess I thread drifted my own thread....but right now, I basically answered my question with static bridles and soft shackles. Both are fine to use in a snatch recovery.

As for actually using a bridle on a 4nr..I know that is also probably overkill. But what if the stuck vehicle doesn't have as good of hooks on the front of their vehicles? I read that even older 4nrs have weaker factory points (I forget which generation).

Regardless, right now I'm just trying to finalize which steel shackles, which soft shackles, hitch receiver, etc. Shopping around.

Do you have an opinion on which 3/4" steel shackle you would select? (the van beest vs campbell above).

(I then have to decide between soft shackles...like....a $26 34k smittybilt shackle on one end from china, vs the bubbarope pro shackle at $47 thats rated at 52K).

 

[Jeremy556]

When I encounter a stuck vehicle with questionable recovery points, I offer them the use of a shovel, encouragement, and to call a wrecker when back to a cellular reception area. Of course water, medical aid, a ride out, etc. if it is a real emergency.

I have no experience with the shackles you have listed above, but I have used ARB shackles numerous times, including yanking out 10K+ pound trucks. No failures to report so far.

IIRC, the early 4th gen T4r's (2003-2004) had crappy hooks, made worse or even unsafe by rust

 

[STX4Runner]

I think a good point to take away from Jeremy's posts is everyone is constantly way overthinking this stuff.
So many threads about how the factory recovery loops are not strong enough (p.s., they are plenty strong), which 3-inch 30,000 lb rated recovery strap should I get, and which shackles should I buy.
OP, not slamming you, but everyone needs to just buy decent recovery gear (shackles for use on the front recovery loops, tow strap for static recoveries, snatch strap for dynamic recoveries and a receiver shackle for the rear hitch), use common sense and realize you are not going to break shackles, the stock recovery hooks or recovery straps unless you're doing something seriously stupid.

It's like that video of the XJ mired in mud, getting yanked out by a diesel Super Duty and having its front axle ripped off the unibody. 30 minutes with a shovel and/or using a winch would have saved that guys car.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJA3J--g_yI

Fast forward to 2:00.

 

[Jetboy]

FWIW - you can make your own soft shackles pretty easily. I have a bunch I use on my sailboat for various things. Dyneema rope is pretty cheap to buy. For this use SK78 is perfectly adequate. You probably don't want the more expensive stuff like SK99 because it's stiffer and where in sailboat racing every ounce matters (not really, but some think it does), in this case it's a waste of money.

For example here's a 13' length for $25. https://www.ebay.com/itm/13-of-7-16...833061?hash=item3d61eb90e5:g:afsAAOSw1oNalCFs You can make a bunch of soft shackles.

I don't have any soft shackles for offroad use. I carry two steel ones of unknown brand. Soft shackles are subject to cutting on sharp corners of tow points. IMO they don't have much place in offroad recovery. But they are handy for a lot of other things. I find a whoopie sling configuration a lot more useful around camp if you have dyneema off cuts to make stuff out of.

For steel shackles - go to your local IFA or Ranch and Home Supply store. Buy whatever they have there that's appropriate size. It'll be fine. They're all the same. I can guarantee you that there is nothing on your 4runner that will not fail before a 1" bow shackle does. They should cost $10-15 each.

 

[Heavy_GD]

Ok...I talked with Southeast Overland. I don't want to put words in their mouth, so this is just what I took away from our conversation.

This was the right move, those guys really know their stuff.

I use synthetic shackles and factor 55 receiver points/ultra hook for everything, snatch recovery, heavy winching, and even clearing trees from trails.

They've yet to fail me.

 

[jrandom]

You can use soft shackles for dynamic recovery, if your worried about the knot just use a vegetable rubber band to hold the knot in the bight.

When I encounter a stuck vehicle with questionable recovery points, I offer them the use of a shovel, encouragement, and to call a wrecker when back to a cellular reception area. Of course water, medical aid, a ride out, etc. if it is a real emergency.

Another piece of good advice deferred recovery

 

[Albionwood]

You should be able to buy a synthetic rope superwinch and a 2in receiver cradle plus a Curt front receiver hitch and a remote mount fit kit for about $700. That's probably the cheapest way to get into a winch.

I put on a CBI front receiver hitch, Curt cradle, and Engo 8K synthetic rope winch for just about that - maybe a little more for the extra cable and QDs to run the winch on either the front or back. I got a deal on the receiver though, because they weren't sure if it would fit a 2010 Trail without cutting the bumper cover. (It does.)

The winch only goes on when I'm headed to the back country. It's there to get me unstuck if I do something stupider than usual. I don't go in groups (the whole point is to get away from people) so there won't be anyone else around to pull me out... so a winch is really the only option for me.