Caught in accident, any suggestions?

[2013 Ltd]

I agree with several of the posts above... I was in the auto business for 15 years and not sure of how much damage is UNSEEN but if you can find a shop that shows the frame in bent-damage you might be able to get the car totaled... I have been really suprised by the cars which were classified this way... Our body shop always seemed to find so much more that what could be easily seen. It is worth a shot on this one.

The other big this as mentioned above is diminished value. If you get the car repaired and deceide to trade it in it will be worth much less when the dealer pulls carfax.. Thousands less... Give your insurance the example of your car repaired and one just like it that has never been damaged.. Ask him or her which car they would want and how much more is the undamaged car worth..

Stick to your guns and do not settle until you feel you are put back to where you were before the accident..

Go for frame damage - total if possible... Again not sure of the unseen damage... Good luck..

 

[lilsid112]

I would take it to reputable body shop that you feel comfortable with. I would also contact your insurance company and let them know the situation. Not sure if you just contacted the other parties. Have your body shop check for frame damage as well. Also as the previous poster stated ask about diminished resale value of the 4runner. I would get checked out with a doctor just incase you tweaked your neck or god for bid your in pain down the road it will be documented.

 

[Newf4R]

I am an independant adjuster. Did and still do auto claims for many insurers. I'm actually in the middle of some training for property claims for TD right at this moment.

My 2 cents. Take your truck to the body shop of your choice. Every insurer has preferreds in big cities, but as soon as you go into rural areas they use whoever is available, so you choosing someone not on their preferred list is no big deal. It likely means they're going to get stuck with an estimate fee that's all.

Request a copy of your estimate. Depending on the part, non-OEM parts are no big deal. You will never notice a difference. I can't see this screwing with your warranty unless it's a mechanical part. If so, demand OEM. Adjuster's have supervisors. Supervisors have managers. Climb the later until your issue is resolved. You are paying the premiums.... be reasonable and your adjuster or her supervisor and they will be the same back.

All estimate's are actually called "preliminary estimates." Obviously not everything can be found always until the tear down begins. Have a good relationship with your shape and they will understand you're a picky customer. If more damage is found they'll submit a supplement estimate to your adjuster. More damage means more money for them... no shop wants to miss damage.

Lastly make sure a wheel alignment is included on the estimate. I would be amazed if that type of impact hurt your chasis at all. These things are built pretty damn tough!

Go through with your own Collision claim and let your adjuster take care of you. Doesn't matter you are insured with the same company as the at-fault third party. This will only make it easier/faster for your adjuster to determine fault and get your deductible waived ("waive & send"). The send stands for send subrogation demands. Your insurer still goes through the process of sending subro demands to the third party adjuster and you're left with no impact to your premiums.

Feel free to PM me along the way. Happy to help a fellow 4Runner in need.

Cheers

 

[KodeRush]

Thanks man, I got this printed out as a reference. I think I'm gonna tow my truck to another dealership to get another estimate. I kinda stick to the dealership is because of the warranty. It's painful that this is the busiest season for most body shops, the dealer ship my truck is sitting in is all booked to Jan. 2013. Others may be the same....

That sucks...one insurance for the front and one for the back, uhhhgg.

Speaking from past experience, here's what I would do. Also conferred with the insurance agent/wife on this one and she is in agreement.

-Get the 3 estimates

-Go with the body shop you feel most confident in. Ask questions...a lot of them. Find out who is going to be the lead guy repairing your truck. See if you can get the manager to steer the most experienced or the best guy to your vehicle. Talk with the guy he recommends. BS with said guy for a while. Find out what the repair guy likes to drink/eat. Be discreet about it. I've learned a 12 pack/bottle/restaraunt gift card "pre thanks" to a guy doing work on your ride gets way better service on just about everything car/boat/motorcycle related. Ask to see some of the stuff they have recently fixed. Look for a car in the shop that is complete and ready for pickup. Ask to see the collision photos (they wil have them on file) and ask if you can take a look at the car. A good shop will be more than happy to show you all the things that were jacked up, what they fixed, where they painted etc. A good repair wil be seamless and very hard to identify. One of the easiest things to ID if it's a crappy repair is overspray or trim, door gaskets, wheel wells, etc.

-Don't think that just because they are a "dealer repair shop" that they're going to be the best. I got T-Boned in my 06 Jetta. I wanted it done "right" so I insisted on the dealer body shop doing it. WRONG ANSWER. Long story short, just about everything they did was shoddy. I was excited to have the hoopty back, signed for the car and took off. in about 5 minutes I found out everything was crap. Bad gaps, trim pieces not lined up right, leaking water, leaking air, doors not closing right., rattles...nightmare. I returned the car back to the body shopt. It was in and out of the shop from Feb until May trying to get things straightened out. It never was right after that hit. When I smacked the semi tire, the car was fixed properly the first time and in 3 days as it was done at a State Farm preferred shop. Much better result. Anyway, back on subject. Talk with and select who you think is better.

-If they decide to repair it, DO NOT take possession of the car unti it's 100% right. Once you sign for it the body shop is on their way to getting their final check. If you come back, they aren't going to be as apt to help you out as now they're working on their dime. Again, do not sign until you're satisfied. Keep your rental car...go and inspect. If you find something wrong, let the shop manager know verbally. Also send him an e-mail and cc your insurance company and walk away. After it's fixed again, same thing. Inspect...if you find something wrong, notify verbally/writing and walk. Don't inspect and try to find everything all at once as this isn't your job...aka don't try to help the body shop fix their incompetence if they have any. If you have a digital camera, take pics and attach them to the email. Check all the rubber to metal seals. A good trick is to use a $1 bill or a $100 if you're rich. Stick the bill against the area metal or rubber that is going to contact metal or rubber. Watch your fingers. Close the door. That bill should not pull out easily anywhere it's properly sealed. A poor seal will be identified when you pull out the bill with minimal or no resistance. I know it gets dark early up there is Canada these days, but try to inspect during a bright sunny day so any variation/blemish/error in the paint etc will stand out.

-Diminished value. With the advent of CarFax and all the other sites out there like this, a hit like this on your car will probably show up on a report. Regardless if the hit was minor and the repair was 100%, everyone knows the vehicle is going to be worth less. Example: Value of a never been wrecked car vs CarFax "hey this car has been in a wreck" before value at trade in or private sale. The virgin car will always be worth more money. You can be compensated for the diminished value your car now has.

-Your insurance company/the other company isn't going to let you know about this, but it's out there. The insurance company (yours and/or theirs) will try and tell you there isn't such a thing. It only applies to salvage vehicles. They don't do that. Blah blah blah. Yes, they do. Don't rely on the insurance departments figure, as it will ALWAYS be lower. Do some research on your own. Go to (best option) and or call as many Toyota dealers as well as independent car dealers as you can stand. Get your VIN. Ask for top dollar trade in/retail value of your truck and get it in writing. Also ask for top dollar/trade in value of your repaired vehicle and get it in writing. The difference between the two figures is your approximate diminished value. I did this with my VW. Insurance (other company) offered me around $700 --I declined. I then gave them all the paperwork and staked my claim of an average of $4000 diminished value. This figure was an accurate average of the pre/post collision value of the car I had. After it was all said and done, because of the extensive documentation, they offered $2500. I said No again. They then threatened to retract the offer entirely. I threatened a lawyer. They became more enlightened and offered $4000 which I took.

That is all for tonights tidbits in insurance.

 

[Jayhawk5G]

Request a copy of your estimate. Depending on the part, non-OEM parts are no big deal. You will never notice a difference.

I'm sorry but this is horrible advice. This isn't a 93' 4Runner that you had liability only on, and you went in a ditch and are doing the repairs out of pocket. In that case it would be your choice to substitute non-oem parts to save money on repairs.

This is a 2011 Limited, and you were hit by others. Their insurance should make your vehicle as close to the same as it was before the accident. That means replacing OEM parts with OEM parts.

We pay money for insurance to protect ourselves from financial liability and routinely most people never need it. So why would you want to do an insurance company a favor at your own expense?

 

[KodeRush]

Thanks. I've talked to a couple of guys, for 2011 4Runner, I was told they will use Toyota parts for sure because it's kinda new model I think.

I'm sorry but this is horrible advice. This isn't a 93' 4Runner that you had liability only on, and you went in a ditch and are doing the repairs out of pocket. In that case it would be your choice to substitute non-oem parts to save money on repairs.

This is a 2011 Limited, and you were hit by others. There insurance should make your vehicle as close to the same as it was before the accident. That means replacing OEM parts with OEM parts.

We pay money for insurance to protect ourselves from financial liability and routinely most people never need it. So why would you want to do an insurance company a favor at your own expense?

 

[KodeRush]

Just got an initial estimate from the appraiser. 6-7K for the front and 8-9k for the rear, and will take 24 days to repair. Don't how much it will add up in the progress, Damn.

Also talked to the adjuster, mentioned about the diminished value. She said they won't cover the diminished value for sure. I didn't want to argue with her at this point, just said I'll consult some lawyer about that. She said the lawyer will tell me the exact same thing. I don't trust her though.

Thanks every one for your support!

 

[Jayhawk5G]

Just got an initial estimate from the appraiser. 6-7K for the front and 8-9k for the rear, and will take 24 days to repair. Don't how much it will add up in the progress, Damn.

Also talked to the adjuster, mentioned about the diminished value. She said they won't cover the diminished value for sure. I didn't want to argue with her at this point, just said I'll consult some lawyer about that. She said the lawyer will tell me the exact same thing. I don't trust her though.

Thanks every one for your support!

Good idea to not argue yet, but don't drop this issue or in a few more years when the next gen 4Runner comes out and you want to trade for one, or sell yours for a downpayment you will be kicking yourself.

If it comes to it I would retain a lawyer, and go after them for the diminished value, plus legal fees.

If you can't tell I really hate insurance, you are for the most part forced to maintain it and then in the odd event you need to use it, it's like pulling teeth.

 

[ZJumper]

Just got an initial estimate from the appraiser. 6-7K for the front and 8-9k for the rear, and will take 24 days to repair. Don't how much it will add up in the progress, Damn.

Also talked to the adjuster, mentioned about the diminished value. She said they won't cover the diminished value for sure. I didn't want to argue with her at this point, just said I'll consult some lawyer about that. She said the lawyer will tell me the exact same thing. I don't trust her though.

Thanks every one for your support!

Sometimes what happens with estimates (as told to me by an estimator who no longer works at a reputable body shop) is that "sometimes" the preliminary estimate is lower than what they "know" it's going to be to try and secure the contract from the insurance company. Then when they start digging into the repair, it magically needs extra things....$500 here, $400 there etc. By this time, the body shop/insurance co are already so vested in the repair that an initial estimate of $7K ends up being $8500-9000. In some instances an absolute accurate preliminary estimate would end up with the vehicle as a total. If this was done in the first place one would walk away with a check and onto the next car; however, this costs the insurance company more for a "total" vs repair. It's shady, but the body shop gets paid and the insurance company doens't have to pay out for the entire vehicle.

Front estimate: $6-7K will probably equate out to $8000--I bet your core support is tweaked. R&R on that is a fairly time consuming job.
Rear estimate: $8-9K will probably equate out to $10.5--the more I look at the rear, the more my gut says there will be lots of surrounding support structure on the hatch that is damaged.
Rental car: $40 per day for 60 days (since they are booked til Mid Jan) $2400
Diminished Value: Gut says $5K

Just with these figures roughly $25,900. When this is all said and done I'd like to see how close my "guesses" were.

Good idea to not argue yet, but don't drop this issue or in a few more years when the next gen 4Runner comes out and you want to trade for one, or sell yours for a downpayment you will be kicking yourself.

If it comes to it I would retain a lawyer, and go after them for the diminished value, plus legal fees.

Yup...exactly. The adjuster doesn't have the final say. Don't make it personal. It's business. Sometimes it takes a lawyer to show you mean and to get business done correctly.

I agree with several of the posts above... I was in the auto business for 15 years and not sure of how much damage is UNSEEN but if you can find a shop that shows the frame in bent-damage you might be able to get the car totaled... I have been really suprised by the cars which were classified this way... Our body shop always seemed to find so much more that what could be easily seen. It is worth a shot on this one.

Good point. A left front/right rear hit may have shifted the frame a bit. Who knows. Hard to tell until they get it on a frame rack and lazer-measure the thing.

Was the collision a bang into the front followed by a bang from the rear, or was it a BANG at the same time?

Cars today are designed to crush and absorb energy throughout the structure. I've seen a fairly light hit to the front buckle the roof on a Ford Focus. Then again the 4Runner has an actual frame.

 

[KodeRush]

Was the collision a bang into the front followed by a bang from the rear, or was it a BANG at the same time?

It was a small BANG in the front then a much bigger BANG in my rear.

According to the estimates I got, no frame damage in the front, but in the back they gonna do some work to the frame.

[B]FRONT:[/B]
I.  Labor Subtotals     Units   Rate    Amount     Amount     Totals
            Body          14.9   65.00     30.00     50.00   1,048.50  T
            Bdy-S          0.0   65.00      0.00      0.00       0.00  T  
            Refinish      13.3   65.00      5.00      0.00     869.50  T 
            Glass          0.0   65.00      0.00      0.00       0.00  T   
            Mechanical     0.0  100.00      0.00      0.00       0.00  T
            Frame          0.0   75.00      0.00      0.00       0.00  T
[B]REAR:[/B]
I.  Labor Subtotals     Units   Rate    Amount     Amount     Totals 
            Body          28.8   65.00      0.00    210.00   2,082.00  T 
            Bdy-S          0.0   65.00      0.00      0.00       0.00  T    
            Refinish      13.7   65.00      0.00      0.00     890.50  T   
            Glass          0.0   65.00      0.00      0.00       0.00  T     
            Mechanical     0.0  100.00      0.00    125.00     125.00  T
            Frame          4.0   75.00      0.00      0.00     300.00  T
ITEM:
39     933006  FRM   ADD'L OPR          Frame/Rack Set Up    2.0* UNIT
40     933036  FRM   ADD'L OPR          Sheetmetal Pull         2.0* UNIT

Anyone knows what is "Frame/Rack Set Up"?

 

[Kinnick]

I just spoke with a friend who is an insurance agent and here is her response. Keep in mind this is generally true in the state of Iowa and may be different where you live. The at-fault parties insurance company will more than likely replace the parts with "of like kind and quality". This will mean they will more than likely be aftermarket and not OEM Toyota parts. As far compensation for diminished value that you may incur when trying to sell or trade a vehicle that has been in an accident, there is no payment for this. Finally, the insurance company should provide you with a comparable vehicle to drive for as long as your truck is being fixed. Good luck, stay positive, and remember the most important thing is no one was hurt.

 

[Ukie]

According to the estimates I got, no frame damage in the front, but in the back they gonna do some work to the frame.

Your estimate doesn't really tell anything about having or not having frame damage. Did they already lazer-measure it? Have you seen them measuring it?

I don't buy that estimate. Looks really low ball.

 

[Jayhawk5G]

I just spoke with a friend who is an insurance agent and here is her response. Keep in mind this is generally true in the state of Iowa and may be different where you live. The at-fault parties insurance company will more than likely replace the parts with "of like kind and quality". This will mean they will more than likely be OEM parts and not Toyota parts. As far compensation for diminished value that you may incur when trying to sell or trade a vehicle that has been in an accident, there is no payment for this. Finally, the insurance company should provide you with a comparable vehicle to drive for as long as your truck is being fixed. Good luck, stay positive, and remember the most important thing is no one was hurt.

Toyota Parts / OEM parts = same, obviously certain parts are not manufactured by Toyota but rather for Toyota. The main concern is replacing a part from the vehicle with a different brand than what originally came on the vehicle. It has been mentioned that not all parts are created equal and non-oem bumpers, hoods, etc. do not perform the same or have the same longevity.

Diminished Value is real, insurance companies don't like to pay it and therefor act like it doesn't exist. Stick to your guns on this or retain a lawyer, do not fall for this trick... unless of course you are willing to take a few thousand dollar loss on the vehicle when the time comes to move on to your next.

Your rental most likely will not be comparable. Most insurance companies only have to provide "transportation" your best bets to get something comparable are to advise you need the space due to family size, or that you need 4x4 to get around. I worked for a rental car company out of college, and everyday we would get stuck in the middle of the Mercedes owner and an insurance company when he found out he was getting a Camry or an Impala and not an E-Class.

 

[dadigab]

I live in Canada - while provincial insurance rules vary, at a minimum, you absolutely have the right to take it to whatever body shop you want.....no question.

If you want to guarantee OEM parts, why not take it to the Toyota dealer collision shop?

By no means is that a guarantee. Dealer shops can order aftermarket parts just as easily.

 

[dadigab]

Yes this when vehicle gets mounted to frame rack and they do initial measuring to discover any unseen damage like frame being "diamonded" or frame ends push out of specs. This usually involves taking all wheels off, using special clamps to hold frame from moving while using tons of hydraulic force to straighten frame. Measuring equipment takes time to setup, laser is faster but standard is just as accurate when performed by knowledgeable techs. So don't sweat if one shop has lasers and another don't. Personally I like using standard systems they can be a bit more fool proof on really hard hits. Well it least for the Mickey Mouse laser system we have in shop.

 

[philsey]

..... As far compensation for diminished value that you may incur when trying to sell or trade a vehicle that has been in an accident, there is no payment for this.......

I got curious and emailed my agent too. American Family, full coverage policy. Here is his reply:

"Phil, Our current contract does not cover that. But we are in the process of putting some new products in the near future. It’s possible that may be included. But I can tell you it will cost more to have something like that.

It’s been a issue for the last 20 years, the car dealers make it a issue and use it to low ball the offer on the car for trade in. But when they resell the car they never disclose it."


Does anyone have actual knowledge of an insurance paying for this?

 

[dadigab]

I just spoke with a friend who is an insurance agent and here is her response. Keep in mind this is generally true in the state of Iowa and may be different where you live. The at-fault parties insurance company will more than likely replace the parts with "of like kind and quality". This will mean they will more than likely be OEM parts and not Toyota parts. As far compensation for diminished value that you may incur when trying to sell or trade a vehicle that has been in an accident, there is no payment for this. Finally, the insurance company should provide you with a comparable vehicle to drive for as long as your truck is being fixed. Good luck, stay positive, and remember the most important thing is no one was hurt.

Like kind and quality also known as "lkq" is aftermarket parts . OEM stands for original equipment manufacturer which would be Toyota.

 

[Jayhawk5G]

I got curious and emailed my agent too. American Family, full coverage policy. Here is his reply:

"Phil, Our current contract does not cover that. But we are in the process of putting some new products in the near future. It’s possible that may be included. But I can tell you it will cost more to have something like that.

It’s been a issue for the last 20 years, the car dealers make it a issue and use it to low ball the offer on the car for trade in. But when they resell the car they never disclose it."


Does anyone have actual knowledge of an insurance paying for this?

I haven't heard much about diminished value as part of your own comprehensive or full coverage policy. If it's an "act of god" or your own fault, I have not heard of a persons own insurance paying them diminished value.

Diminished Value relates to situations where through no fault of your own, someone else hits your vehicle not only damaging the vehicle itself but damaging the value or worth of the vehicle due to it having been through an accident.

 

[Kinnick]

Like kind and quality also known as "lkq" is aftermarket parts . OEM stands for original equipment manufacturer which would be Toyota.

Thanks for catching that. My brain and fingers were not on the same page. I fixed my original post.

 

[ZJumper]

I got curious and emailed my agent too. American Family, full coverage policy. Here is his reply:

"Phil, Our current contract does not cover that. But we are in the process of putting some new products in the near future. It’s possible that may be included. But I can tell you it will cost more to have something like that.

It’s been a issue for the last 20 years, the car dealers make it a issue and use it to low ball the offer on the car for trade in. But when they resell the car they never disclose it."


Does anyone have actual knowledge of an insurance paying for this?

Your agent is playing dumb...plain and simple.

I filed a diminished value claim with USAA and received it. A friend of mine (after I told him about DV) filed a DV claim against GEICO and received it.

American Family is a fairly big company. They aren't going to offer it up, but will probably and reluctantly pay it to a 3rd party that suffered a loss and filed a diminished value claim against them.

From what I've learned about DV:

If you hit someone and are at fault, your insurance company isn't going to pay diminished value to you.

If you smack your car into a tree, they aren't going to give it to you.

If you are smashed by someone else, go after their insurance company with legal representation, if necessary, and get it. Your insurance company isn't generally going to pay it out to you and fight for reimbursement for the DV.