Changed Octane Changed MPG...

CVsGX470

New member
With the gas prices going out of this world I decided to move from the 92 (or 93 can't remember) Octane (SHELL) and go to the 89 Octane (SHELL). I did not change my driving habits at all and I found that I picked up an extra .5-.6 mile/gallon on a tank of gas. So, being the scientist that I am, I went with the 87 Octane on my last fill up and now I am getting over 1 more mile per gallon/tank of gas. This is fricking amazing.

:awais:

I would bet that the engine is using more of the fuel efficiently because the engine doesn't have to be as hot to fire the fuel. AKA the detergent theory. Could less be more?

Your thoughts?

CV
 
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I tried going from 87 octane to 93 octane and saw absolutely no MPG difference, nor any increase in HP - according to my calibrated butt-dynamometer.
:p
 
Octane refers only to a fuel's resistance to "knock" or "ping." Using the wrong octane in a high-performance or high-compression engine can be a problem. But only 6 percent of all cars on the road require high-octane gas, while 10 percent of all gas sold is high octane, reports the Federal Trade Commission.
 
veloindy said:
Octane refers only to a fuel's resistance to "knock" or "ping." Using the wrong octane in a high-performance or high-compression engine can be a problem. But only 6 percent of all cars on the road require high-octane gas, while 10 percent of all gas sold is high octane, reports the Federal Trade Commission.

Octane does not refer to resistance of knocking or pinging. Octane refers to the amount of detergent that is in the gasoline. This detergent essentially deters the fuel from igniting unless the engine reaches a higher temperature. Thus, high performance engines, which are very hot, need a fuel that won't combust too early and cause the engine to misfire. The higer the octane # the harder it is to fire the fuel.

Knocking and or Pinging is a result of this misfiring. The ping or knock is the sound of the premature/off timing explosion in the cylinder.

Thus, my theory is that the 4Runner uses lower octane fuel better than high octane because the engine can fire at an optimal temperature.
 
when you run low octane fuel the engine retards the timing a little to keep cylinder temperatures down to prevent knocking. retarding the timing reduces power a little bit, likewise it reduces fuel usage too. if and only if an engine is designed for high octane fuel, will you get a benefit out of it. otherwise you're just burning money.

check this out:

http://www.faqs.org/faqs/autos/gasoline-faq/part1/
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/autos/gasoline-faq/part2/
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/autos/gasoline-faq/part3/
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/autos/gasoline-faq/part4/

mike
 
If you read through your owners manual it does say that the 4 runner can use higher octane gas. The result of this is better performance. I would normal say that this is BS but I have an 04 Sport with a V6 and my mother has an 04 Limted with a V6. I have run 93 in my truck from day one and she has run 87 in hers from day one. You can notice a difference in power. While it is not great it is there. The torque just seems to be smoother no flat spots. And once again I would say it is all in my head but my mother drove my truck for a week while hers was in the shop and when see got it back and started driving hers she said its weird but yours seems to have more power. The only funny part about that is she does not know that I run 93 in my truck, once I told her she did not believe it would do that. To this day she still runs 87. Truck runs great on 87 no problems, just seems to have a little less power. Nothing really big. Now this is just opinions and I have no scientific way to back this up, just opinions, use them as you wish.

Brian
 
Try chevron and see what happens.

Everytime I use shell it seems like I loose 1-2 mpg. ANy other gas seems to be the same.
 
I have also noticed that at a particular Shell station near me I do not get as good mpg:confused:

My experience with higher octane: The only notable difference is when towing. Cruising down the interstate, it pulls hills a lot easier (less downshifting to maintian speed on long, steep grades). This seems to give me better gas mileage when towing. When I have used it under normal conditions, it may have seemed like the mpg was less.
 
CVs4runner, do a search on octane ratings and get back to me.

The number posted on the fuel pump is the octane rating of the gasoline. The octane rating is basically an anti-knock (or ping) rating. Ping occurs while the engine piston is on the upstroke and there's a pre-detonation of fuel. And that's probably as technical as I need to get. The higher the number on the pump, the less pre-detonation of fuel will occur, and the lower your chances of knocking and pinging. This pre-detonation can also cause internal damage.
 
CVs4Runner said:
Octane does not refer to resistance of knocking or pinging. Octane refers to the amount of detergent that is in the gasoline.

Where are you getting this from? Has the definition of octane changed? Every time I've heard octane defined it's exactly opposite of the above, it's an anti-knock index. Usually it's the average of research and motor octane. When did detergents enter the octane picture?
 
Iowa4Runner said:
Where are you getting this from? Has the definition of octane changed? Every time I've heard octane defined it's exactly opposite of the above, it's an anti-knock index. Usually it's the average of research and motor octane. When did detergents enter the octane picture?

Exactly, Thank you!!!

Here's a FAQ from Mobil.com

http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/GFM/Products_Services/Fuels/Gasoline_FAQ.asp


What is the importance of a gasoline
 
veloindy said:
CVs4runner, do a search on octane ratings and get back to me.

The number posted on the fuel pump is the octane rating of the gasoline. The octane rating is basically an anti-knock (or ping) rating. Ping occurs while the engine piston is on the upstroke and there's a pre-detonation of fuel. And that's probably as technical as I need to get. The higher the number on the pump, the less pre-detonation of fuel will occur, and the lower your chances of knocking and pinging. This pre-detonation can also cause internal damage.

I think that we are saying the same thing but in different ways. From my days of studying Organic Chemistry, we learned that fuels had added detergents in them via the refining process. Octane ratings are ratings that are based on the fuel's resistance to firing at certain temperatures. The misfires are pings and knocks. Thus a higher octane fuel will not fire as easily as a lower octane fuel. Furthermore, the engine has to burn hotter to burn high octane fuel (high performace cars.) Not saying you are wrong, but rather going about it in a more scientific way. What you say regarding the problems that occur in the engine are right on. So a misfire due to temperature needs of the gasoline = knocking.
CV
 
But the whole point is to tell you that I am getting better gas mileage from the lower octane fuel...

PS...the word, "detergent," when referring to gasoline has nothing to do with a cleaning agent in case that is what you think i am saying. It is the type of mixture of research et al that refers to the detering of the fumes and or gasoline from firing at lower temperatures.
 
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Here is a good explanation of what I mean by octane and detergents.

If you've read How Car Engines Work, you know that almost all cars use four-stroke gasoline engines. One of the strokes is the compression stroke, where the engine compresses a cylinder-full of air and gas into a much smaller volume before igniting it with a spark plug. The amount of compression is called the compression ratio of the engine. A typical engine might have a compression ratio of 8-to-1. (See How Car Engines Work for details.)

The octane rating of gasoline tells you how much the fuel can be compressed before it spontaneously ignites. When gas ignites by compression rather than because of the spark from the spark plug, it causes knocking in the engine. Knocking can damage an engine, so it is not something you want to have happening. Lower-octane gas (like "regular" 87-octane gasoline) can handle the least amount of compression before igniting.

The compression ratio of your engine determines the octane rating of the gas you must use in the car. One way to increase the horsepower of an engine of a given displacement is to increase its compression ratio. So a "high-performance engine" has a higher compression ratio and requires higher-octane fuel. The advantage of a high compression ratio is that it gives your engine a higher horsepower rating for a given engine weight -- that is what makes the engine "high performance." The disadvantage is that the gasoline for your engine costs more.

The name "octane" comes from the following fact: When you take crude oil and "crack" it in a refinery, you end up getting hydrocarbon chains of different lengths. These different chain lengths can then be separated from each other and blended to form different fuels. For example, you may have heard of methane, propane and butane. All three of them are hydrocarbons. Methane has just a single carbon atom. Propane has three carbon atoms chained together. Butane has four carbon atoms chained together. Pentane has five, hexane has six, heptane has seven and octane has eight carbons chained together.

It turns out that heptane handles compression very poorly. Compress it just a little and it ignites spontaneously. Octane handles compression very well -- you can compress it a lot and nothing happens. Eighty-seven-octane gasoline is gasoline that contains 87-percent octane and 13-percent heptane (or some other combination of fuels that has the same performance of the 87/13 combination of octane/heptane). It spontaneously ignites at a given compression level, and can only be used in engines that do not exceed that compression ratio.

During WWI, it was discovered that you can add a chemical called tetraethyl lead to gasoline and significantly improve its octane rating. Cheaper grades of gasoline could be made usable by adding this chemical. This led to the widespread use of "ethyl" or "leaded" gasoline. Unfortunately, the side effects of adding lead to gasoline are:

Lead clogs a catalytic converter and renders it inoperable within minutes.
The Earth became covered in a thin layer of lead, and lead is toxic to many living things (including humans).
When lead was banned, gasoline got more expensive because refineries could not boost the octane ratings of cheaper grades any more. Airplanes are still allowed to use leaded gasoline, and octane ratings of 115 are commonly used in super-high-performance piston airplane engines (jet engines burn kerosene, by the way).
 
bulldog-yota said:
Try chevron and see what happens.

Everytime I use shell it seems like I loose 1-2 mpg. ANy other gas seems to be the same.


I experience the exact same thing! i always try to get chevron if i can. perhaps it has something to do with us being in the same general area?

I even had some pinging the last, and last ever, time I used shell..
 
slowginjoe said:
I experience the exact same thing! i always try to get chevron if i can. perhaps it has something to do with us being in the same general area?

I even had some pinging the last, and last ever, time I used shell..
Yeah mine doesn't seem to like Shell at all. Which is funny as my BMW used to run real nice on it, but that was a few years back. Maybe they changed the formula or something.

Chevron or any other gas works fine, but I just prefer Chevron. I mostly use Chevron now and sometimes 76. No difference in what I could notice. I have put Shell in twice in the last 6 months and every time my mileage dropped. Maybe it is just a Bay Aea thing????

I just use premium (91 here in CA).
 
detergents?

Here is a good explanation of what I mean by octane and detergents.

I read that, a good explanation of octane ratings. But I didn't see detergents mentioned even once. I don't think that detergents have anything to do with the octane rating of a gasoline.
 
GAS!!!!

While we are on the subject of gas Brands and grades. It is just my opion and we all know what those are like, But I have owned a Ford 82 escort, Hyundai 93 Excel, Honda 95 Civic EX, Chevy 98 Cavalier w/quad4 & 95 Blazer, Dodge 96 1500 w/360 w/Mopar performance PCM requiring premium fuel & 2000 Neon, and most recently a 2k4 4Runner V6 (26K miles) and 05 Camry LE (2k miles). In the 2 Vehicles I have owned that would benefit from premium fuel I always got the best mileage from Amoco 93 Octane including my 4runner. My Dodge 1500 would knock and ping with the 91 Octane premuim sold in the west. I have been to OKC a couple time with it. All my other vehicles seemed to run the best and get the best mileage from plan old Amoco 87 Octane. I have lived in Southern Michigan and now live in Eastern NC. Amoco always seems to work the best for me. Just my 2 cents worth.

Does anyone out there know why the Octane rating from West coast to midwest/east coast is different. Why can you only get 91 Octane Premium out west and 93 and I have seen 94 at Sonoco in the east?

Just a note. I saw another post about Av Gas (Aviation Fuel) It used to be around 112-116 Octane like the post says, but now as far as I know all AV Gas is 100LL (100 Octane LL=Low Lead). They still have not found a better way to luburcate the valves in Avaition piston engines. Jet Fuel, Diesel, and Kerocene are all very simiular. You can put Jet Fuel in your Diesel Pickup or Tractor and It will run fine (Illegal in most or all states due to tax issues). I have a friend whose family runs the FBO (Airport Gas station) and owns a farm and has run jet fuel in their john deere tractors for 20 plus years. They also run 100LL in snowmobiles and ATVs too.

I once ran a tank of 100LL in my 98 Cavalier Quad4 and it was unreal how much differance there was. It was a leased car so I was not worried about burning up the heads or valves. 1 tank would not have burned it up anyway.

NCSCOTT
 
I too experienced the exact same thing. The trip computer (which we all know how accurate that is....) increased about .5 to .8 mpg over the last few tanks with no change in my routine driving habits. This was after I switched from 91 octane to 87 because of the recent increase in gas prices. As for a performance drop, I can't tell any difference yet. Incidentally, I use BP/Amoco.
 
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