Considering purchasing a 2014 Jeep Grand Cherokee

[1engineer]

Yeah, he did:


it's a unibody with IFS, but it's not in the same class as FWD-based AWD vehicles

Again, nobody said it was. Actually I have not witnessed a Jeep going places a Turbo Forester couldn't go either. I'm sure there are places but I haven't seen them. Most Jeeps I see are at the mall or grocery store, same as me.
I have a 4Runner because of reliability, durability, utility and the ability to get yanked out of stuck every now and then when out on job sites. Having a frame makes it much better (and causes a lot less damage) when a Skidder hooks up a chain to you and pulls you through a bad section of "road." If I didn't need that specific capability I would have a CUV. Goes almost all places I take a $40K vehicle with more features and comfort to boot. If I wanted a rock crawler I would spend $10K on an old beater and run circles around the stock 4Runner and stock Jeeps. Jetboy already has one.

 

[Jetboy]

I was in a number of situations off road where I needed to use my low range, at least 10 times by the end of the 3 year ownership of my WK2...so please, save your presumptions about it not being able enough to use that function. Obviously you have no clue.

Help me understand this. Where did you "need" low range? Specifically what trail? What part? I have never "needed" low range in my 5th gen. I use it mostly because I do need the rear locker and I haven't done the bypass mod yet. Give me an 8speed with a 4.6:1 1st gear and 4.40 diff gears and I could pretty easily get by without ever using low range.

The WK2 has pretty high gearing in 4hi for having an 8 speed. Even so it's still 16.4:1. So a highlander has significantly lower gearing than a WK2 in high range. 20.24:1. As does a Honda Pilot. 20.5:1. A Subaru Outback has a 24.7:1 ratio - with no low range. <- Yes a Subaru outback has LOWER gearing than a stock JK in lo range! Without a two speed transfer case.

Basically all current crossovers have gearing as low or nearly as low as every prior generation of GC. The claim that you need additional low gearing beyond what a WJ or JK has seems pretty curious to me. Help me understand why a softroader like a GC is ever going to need lower gearing.

 

[bluecollarjock]

I did not intend to stir up all this debate about how far vehicles can go off-road...or what vehicles are more manly etc.

Since moving to California, the kinds of trails I've been on you have to use low range. And a crossover or Subaru car would be demolished trying to follow a Jeep (Jeep like Wrangler) on most trails, they just do not have the ground clearance and not sure how tight their turning radius is. Even if that Suburu did well on hill climb, I would be cringing about using it as a regular trail vehicle following Jeep TJs. For what a new Subaru costs I would keep it in the driveway and buy an older YJ or TJ for cheap and beat on it rather than risk trashing a nice car.

I do not have places to park two vehicles so for now looking for a compromise, and the 4runner with a locker seems like a good one. For most of the driving I do I do not need a Jeep/FJ type vehicle. If I do any long road trips that include camping, hunting, or want to do some mild scenic trails a 4runner would work (or maybe a WK2 as well but the reliability hassles do not seem worth it).

I would not want to hammer on any newer $40k vehicle even if it could go far places off road! I do not have a disposable income. If I had two parking spots and could afford it, a nice SUV combined with an older YJ/TJ/FJ kind of vehicle would be the thing to do in my opinion. If you smash up or break an older Jeep/FJ, does not create havoc in your life not having transportation as you have the SUV. Fix it on your own time frame etc.

If you are willing to risk damage or breaking things, you can take a lot of vehicles further than they were intended to go. Plus driving ability will have plenty to do with what any 4x4 or AWD can do.

 

[e60ral]

https://youtu.be/nxqL320GSZ0

 

[Jetboy]

If I wanted a rock crawler I would spend $10K on an old beater and run circles around the stock 4Runner and stock Jeeps. Jetboy already has one.

The reality that I hate to admit is that a mildly modified 5th gen goes 85% of the places my trail rig does. And that is about 99.9% of the places I actually go. And it does it with much greater comfort. I rarely ever take my FJ40 out anymore. I've driven it once in the last year. I've been thinking of getting rid of it.

 

[Jetboy]

https://youtu.be/nxqL320GSZ0

Same section. No low range. Broke a rear axle. But obviously the $500 subaru had no trouble navigating the same trail without low range. I don't think a current model outback or forester would have too much trouble. Either way the point is that the difference between the GC and other crossovers is very small.
<iframe width="854" height="480" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/BJIo4D4uBw8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[pinetar]

Help me understand this. Where did you "need" low range? Specifically what trail? What part?

The last time I remember needing it on some random trail around my area, I was facing a hill that was very steep and had lots of loose rock that wouldn't let me gain traction. I was unable to get enough momentum to try and get a good push up the hill because I had limited space behind me to back up. So, low range was engaged and it let me crawl out with much less effort than it would've taken to try and prove your point that it was unnecessary. Could I have made it without the low range? Probably after a lot more time, effort and possible damage in the process. The low range helped me in just the way I needed it to.

It's okay if you think the GC is just a crossover, but it's not as incapable as you are assuming it is.

And how are you comparing apples to oranges with an Outback to a GC?

The WK2 has almost double the ground clearance and the last time I checked, that's a pretty limiting factor when off roading...

 

[Jetboy]

The last time I remember needing it on some random trail around my area, I was facing a hill that was very steep and had lots of loose rock that wouldn't let me gain traction. I was unable to get enough momentum to try and get a good push up the hill because I had limited space behind me to back up. So, low range was engaged and it let me crawl out with much less effort than it would've taken to try and prove your point that it was unnecessary. Could I have made it without the low range? Probably after a lot more time, effort and possible damage in the process. The low range helped me in just the way I needed it to.

It's okay if you think the GC is just a crossover, but it's not as incapable as you are assuming it is.

And how are you comparing apples to oranges with an Outback to a GC?

The WK2 has almost double the ground clearance and the last time I checked, that's a pretty limiting factor when off roading...

It would seem that an outback with it's much lower gearing in hi would have done about the same? It's lowest gearing is roughly double that of the GC in high range.

When was the last time you checked? And where were you checking? Spec sheets says GC has 8.6 base model Outback has 8.7 (Outback has more clearance in base form). GC claims 10.8 for the adjustable height suspension with the suspension max height. And that sounds About right. An outback side by side with a GC is very similar in all dimensions.

 

[pinetar]

Okay, so the stock base model is very close to the same ground clearance, I'll give you that. But the Outback doesn't have the ability to raise the suspension from an on board air lift either, so it's missing that entirely and most other coil lift options too. Still a huge factor in what you claim the WK2 doesn't even have the ability to put to use...

There is no plausible scenario where a GC is going to need a low range. It simply lacks the body clearance to ever go on the types of obstacles where ultra low speed and torque modulation are critical..

And this comment ^ is still mostly what I was trying to discuss with you. It's completely misinformed and wrong.

 

[Jetboy]

Okay, so the stock base model is very close to the same ground clearance, I'll give you that. But the Outback doesn't have the ability to raise the suspension from an on board air lift either, so it's missing that entirely and most other coil lift options too. Still a huge factor in what you claim the WK2 doesn't even have the ability to put to use...



And this comment ^ is still mostly what I was trying to discuss with you. It's completely misinformed and wrong.

Explain to me how that's wrong. The outback has the equivalent gearing of a GC with a 2:1 low range. It has lower gears than a JK wrangler does even in low range. Why is it that you think it needs additional low range? With big heavy offroad tires and clearance you might get to places where that extra low gearing really helps. With 32" tires and a body 12" off the dirt, not so much. What is the minimum gear reduction that you think is necessary?

And if you were curious - there are the same lift kit options for the outback and forester. Not sure why you would lift one, but they're out there.

 

[e60ral]

But obviously the $500 subaru had no trouble navigating the same trail without low range.

... no trouble? he broke an axle. that was almost exactly what i said, you need low range for slow and safe and you may be able to get something through high range but you've got a good chance you are breaking something.\

The outback has the equivalent gearing of a GC with a 2:1 low range. It has lower gears than a JK wrangler does even in low range.

I'm seeing the following for the Outback:
1st 3.454
Final 4.111
14.2:1 crawl ratio on factory tires

how is that is equivalent to
WK2:
1st Gear: 4.714
Transfer Case: 2.72
Final: 3.45
44.24:1 crawl ratio on factory tires

Or the JK with a 42RLE and standard transfer (4.0 transfer also offered)
1st Gear 2.84
Transfer: 2.72
Final: 4.10
31.67:1 crawl ratio on factory tires

Also for comparison, the most offroad subaru the crosstrek:
1st gear: 3.545
Final: 4.444
15.75:1 crawl ratio on factory tires

And I think a WJ was mentioned:
42RE?:
1st: 2.74
Transfer: 2.72
Final: 3.73
27.8:1 crawl ratio on factory tires

 

[Jetboy]

... no trouble? he broke an axle. that was almost exactly what i said, you need low range for slow and safe and you may be able to get something through high range but you've got a good chance you are breaking something.

He did break an axle. It's a $500 30yr old beater. And the point is that the GC is a crossover and has basically the same design as every other crossover. Sure it's dressed up a little different, but under the sheet metal its the same thing. They're all the same thing with slight variations.

 

[MasonCO]

And it does it with much greater comfort. I rarely ever take my FJ40 out anymore. I've driven it once in the last year. I've been thinking of getting rid of it.

I'm feeling the same about my modified Isuzu Amigo and Suzuki Samurai. Hard to get behind the wheel and take them offroad anymore.

 

[e60ral]

And the point is that the GC is a crossover and has basically the same design as every other crossover. Sure it's dressed up a little different, but under the sheet metal its the same thing. They're all the same thing with slight variations.

and one of those "slight variations" is the presence of a transfer case

 

[Jetboy]

and one of those "slight variations" is the presence of a transfer case

Yes. It is not necessary for any purpose. But yes it does exist. Add a gear to the transmission, add a gear to the secondary gear box, same result. Gears are gears. Gear reduction is gear reduction. Whether it happens in the transmission, transfer case, or axles really doesn't make a bit of difference.

 

[e60ral]

so then:
I'm seeing the following for the Outback:
1st 3.454
Final 4.111
14.2:1 crawl ratio on factory tires

how is that is equivalent to
WK2:
1st Gear: 4.714
Transfer Case: 2.72
Final: 3.45
44.24:1 crawl ratio on factory tires

Or the JK with a 42RLE and standard transfer (4.0 transfer also offered)
1st Gear 2.84
Transfer: 2.72
Final: 4.10
31.67:1 crawl ratio on factory tires

Also for comparison, the most offroad subaru the crosstrek:
1st gear: 3.545
Final: 4.444
15.75:1 crawl ratio on factory tires

And I think a WJ was mentioned:
42RE?:
1st: 2.74
Transfer: 2.72
Final: 3.73
27.8:1 crawl ratio on factory tires

 

[Jetboy]

A current Outback has subaru lineartronic CVT with a 6.32:1 ratio at the low end

6.32*4.11 = 25.97


Most JKs have 3.21 diff gears.

2.84 * 2.72 * 3.21 = 24.8

**25.97>24.8**

Does that help?

 

[e60ral]

and 25.97 is a whole lot less than 44.2, which was your claim

but in a JK, if you have the 3.21, don't you have a 4.46 first gear?

can you even manually hold that ratio on the CVT? I know the CVT has virtual gears, is that the ratio for the 1st gear? Normal operation would be varrying the ratio for effeciency not crawl.
Edit: apparently the normal MT 1st gear is lower than the normal starting ratio for the CVT, but X-mode will lock the CVT in the lowest ratio. So in that respect, the Outback with the CVT has a crawl ratio a little more than half that of the the vehicle that apparently can't go anywhere it cant go

 

[Mtbkr]

Jeep is a poor choice. A buddy of mine purchased a new Grand Cherokee and promptly sold it after spending a good deal of time in the shop with climate control system problems.

I sold my '13 JKU at 25K miles and purchased a 4Runner. I took the Jeep dive and escaped (fortunately) unscathed. They are trouble on wheels. Mine started to develop rear end back lash. Defrost blew hot air on the wind shield no matter what ventilation setting and that is not acceptable in snow country. Started to develop rattles in the interior. Crappy plastic fenders look like sh*t after a year and always putting conditioner on them. I know you're looking at a Cherokee but I believe there too you will experience hell.

See post #71302

What did you do to your JK today? - Page 2377 - Jeep Wrangler Forum

 

[jwkilgore]

Help me understand this. Where did you "need" low range? Specifically what trail? What part? I have never "needed" low range in my 5th gen. I use it mostly because I do need the rear locker and I haven't done the bypass mod yet. Give me an 8speed with a 4.6:1 1st gear and 4.40 diff gears and I could pretty easily get by without ever using low range.

For what it's worth, I use 4Lo quite often off-road in my 5th gen. Mainly because "off road" around here means lots of rocks where driving with any speed will tear up the truck and/or tear up your spine. Not necessarily what I'd call "rock crawling", just lots of cobble-sized rocks or semi-deep ruts with occasionally enough size to lift a tire in the air. So I put it in 4Lo, switch A-Track on (for the occasional lifted tire), manually shift to 1 or 2, relax my spine, and just let her idle along. Plus I've climbed quite a few very steep hills/rocks where low-gearing was a huge help.

But if I lived in a different part of the country (say, where my family lives in Mississippi) I could see never using 4Lo.

But back on topic, even with all the extra bells and whistles and even the video posted a few pages back, I don't consider the Jeep Grand Cherokee an off-roader. I drove a rental a while back and it was 100% a city/highway vehicle. I'd compare it to a Highlander or Explorer, but not a 4Runner. Until the new Bronco gets here, the only real (new, affordable) mid-sized off-road SUVs left on the market are the 4Runner and the Wrangler, and the Wrangler sucks on the highway